Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Many like to post about a first successful ferment (or first all grain mash), or first still built/bought or first good run of the still. Tell us about all of these great times here.
Pics are VERY welcome, we drool over pretty copper 8)

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zed255
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Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Post by zed255 »

Continuing on with my first experiences here I'd like to present my notes pertaining to my first spirit run intended for consumption. There are a few lessons learned here and reinforcement of good advice.

I siphoned off my wash from the water jugs (poor man's carboy - will get more glass ones soon) it was resting in and got the boiler charged with just less than the full 50L of wash that was prepared. Every transfer operation looses a little of course. I definitely feel that 50L is about as much as should go in the 1/2 barrel (15.5 US Gal, ~62L) keg to leave appropriate head space. The wash should have ended up at about 12% ABV based on my OG and FG readings. Saved the yeast dregs with the plan being on boiling them into the next wash to feed the next yeast colony.

Set my boiler into position and adjusted for initial level, to be further tuned after the column was attached. Attached my column and head assembly and fine tuned level. I had also added another layer of insulation to the column prior to this run. I initially thought I only had enough material for two layers but when I checked there was just enough to add a third layer, so I did. Got my water lines hooked up and charged the system with water and checked for any leaks, all looked good, shut off the water and hooked up to power. I don't yet have a power controller, though I have some inexpensive examples coming to add, so power control is very rudimentary and this plays into a lesson later on. Set up my thermometer and applied power. In almost an hour at 6000W input I could hear that I was about to reach a boil, so on with the cooling water. I set it as low as I could but it was certainly still faster than needed so I plan of adding a separate valve at the still to help tune water flow. Reduced heat input by turning off one element to bring my input to 3000W. Now the wait for the main event to begin.

Having read a fair bit of information and feeling I have a decent grasp of the theory I waited for the initial temperature spike - the first vapour to arrive in the head without having refluxed much. Surprised my how long it took to go from hearing the boil start to that spike. I allowed about 45 minutes after the temperature settled down to run in full reflux mode, pushing closer to equilibrium. Once I saw the temperature had dropped and stayed low I began to draw off the foreshots. My intent was to pull a very slow and hopefully well compressed 100mL of fores at about 1 drop a second to hopefully not disturb the system too much. After about 50mL was taken the temperature began to creep up towards the azeotrope temperature and by 100mL it had been at the expected 78.2C for a while. Early fores were a little cloudy and rank in odour, which cleared and smelled sweet at the end. I closed my take off valve and allowed about 15 minutes more in full reflux to try and compress my heads a little.

I used 250mL (8oz) jars throughout the run for collection. I bought two dozen for a total capacity of 6L and numbered them 1 to 24. I started off taking about 3 to 4 drops a second for the collection of heads. Somewhere at about the 500 mL mark the sense of heads disappeared and the product started to seem really nice. I will save the determination of exactly where heads end and hearts begin later during my first set of cuts after airing out, but I suspect it will be collection jar 3 form my initial observations.

Starting with jar 4 I sped up collection a little and continued to collect for the next few hours without any change in temperature or product qualities. Somewhere around jar 15 is where I am taught a couple things about my still and how to operate it.

First I noted a bit of change in the smell of the product. Temperature had not changed, but what I failed to recognize were the early signs of flooding the column. It appears my column can take 3000W for a fair length of time but not indefinitely. In my current state of inexperience I just accepted that was what was going to come out and continued collecting. The quality continued to drop and I erroneously thought the run was almost over and I would just speed up collection to grab some tails and shut it down. That was a mistake. Increasing the take off rate of course disturbed the column and the temperature rose dramatically. It was at jar 19 I could really hear the column choking and it was even rocking physically. Heavy tails were present. Having now come to realization that I had not collected the anticipated volume and my still was choking I cut the power down to 1500W and closed the take off valve. Retrospectively this was the action I should have taken the moment I caught a change in the product back at jar 15. Lesson learned on recognizing a choking column. I had read about it but experiencing it really increased my capability to pick up on it and correct it. That should not happen again.

After a while the still returned to silent operation and the temperature dropped back to normal for azeotropic production. I allowed about 30 minutes to try and re-establish some equilibrium and began to take product again, only slower now that the input power was down to 1500W. Jar 20 was just a nice as one from the pre-choke hearts part of the run. I continued to take product into jar 23 where the temperature began to creep again and slowing take off further was of limited value, now the run was really over. Extracting any more would require painfully slow take off and return to full reflux regularly to maintain production. Time and resources like power and water dictated going on was not practical. I cut power and began to ready tear down and clean-up. Gave everything a good thorough rinse and put it all away.

Took my product into the house and laid it all out with coffee filters over the jars to allow airing out. I will visit my first set of cuts after 48 hours, though it will be starge since my mistake means I will find tails in two parts for the run rather than just the end.

So I learned the following this time around:

1) Yes, you really do need some form of variable power control to maximize reflux while maintaining maximal product production and quality. I was told this early on but had to try it my way anyhow.
2) Exactly what a choking column does to your product and how to recognize it when it begins to happen
3) As importantly as lesson 2 what NOT to do and what TO DO when it begins to happen - Cut the heat, go to full reflux an wait. Resume slower.
4) Recognizing the approach of the end of the run.

Any comments or observations? Next run should go smoother, but hey, I'm a noob and learning. Neat hobby with a steep learning curve. Would be cool if it weren't considered taboo so it would be possible to find local mentors.
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Re: Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Post by Pikey »

I quite enjoyed your write up, resourcefulness in using water jugs and readiness to go through your thinking patterns and responnses.

Sadly I was half way through before I was sure you were running a reflux column, and you never did explain what type. A description woud be good - picture better :)
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zed255
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Re: Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Post by zed255 »

Apologies for not being clear about what I was running. I have posted about my rig elsewhere and lost sight that it might not be obvious. Did I not use the word reflux often enough :wink:. Will work at being more clear in the future.
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Re: Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Post by Pikey »

Yes I saw another post by you, after this one. Sad as it may seem, we only have a certain memory span and really do not carry information about a poster from one thread to another as a rule, unless it is something very unusual.

SO what Sort of "reflux" ?
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zed255
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Re: Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Post by zed255 »

Hi Pikey,

My unit is a Nixon-Stone type offset head valved reflux design. I did not take any new pictures during the run to share but will next time. There are some pics here already, just not while operating.
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Re: Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Post by der wo »

>> little asshole mode on <<
Pikey wrote:Sad as it may seem, we only have a certain memory span and really do not carry information about a poster from one thread to another as a rule, unless it is something very unusual.
Yes, that's right, Pikey. I see your name and think, wow, this guy has written over 1500 posts, but I don't remeber a single one... :lol:
>> little asshole mode off <<

Edit: Of course I remember conversations with Pikey. Yesterday at night my joke sounded funny. Today in the morning less.
Last edited by der wo on Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Post by zapata »

My comment is assuming your column is 2" diameter, packed with mesh/scrubbies, and roughly a meter tall, you'd have been better off at 1500w the entire time. Not just for choking, but for vapor speed.

For a reflux rig you really don't NEED power control, heck a generation of shiners got by making pretty good neutral with nothing more than the occasional 240/120 switch. Even with a controller, I never change my power after its set where I want it.

Regardless, congrats on a great virgin run!
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Re: Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Post by Antler24 »

Great write up! Sounds like you've done your research. Was a very interesting read. Dont sweat the learning curve, I don't like to call them mistakes if you learn from them. Whilestrictly a pot Stiller myself I still have alot of interest in the refluxing designs and know someday I'll put that to good use. Keep up the good work!
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Re: Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Post by skow69 »

der wo wrote:>> little asshole mode on <<
Pikey wrote:Sad as it may seem, we only have a certain memory span and really do not carry information about a poster from one thread to another as a rule, unless it is something very unusual.
Yes, that's right, Pikey. I see your name and think, wow, this guy has written over 1500 posts, but I don't remeber a single one... :lol:
>> little asshole mode off <<
der wo, you surprise me. Your posts are usually helpful. This one was just mean.

Zed, sounds like your learning curve is right in schedule. You know, you can toss everything back in the boiler and run it again if you want to get the tails all pushed back to the end.
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Re: Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Post by zed255 »

zapata wrote:My comment is assuming your column is 2" diameter, packed with mesh/scrubbies, and roughly a meter tall, you'd have been better off at 1500w the entire time. Not just for choking, but for vapor speed.

For a reflux rig you really don't NEED power control, heck a generation of shiners got by making pretty good neutral with nothing more than the occasional 240/120 switch. Even with a controller, I never change my power after its set where I want it.

Regardless, congrats on a great virgin run!
As I understand it you want to use the most power you can without flooding the column for a couple reasons. One is that you need the condensate and vapour passing one another maximally to get the greatest amount of benefit from reflux and secondarily allows for a faster rate of take off without seriously upsetting the column.

Maybe I have not gotten a proper grasp of things. This is why I suggested using a controller so I can figure out where my build maxes out in power handling and then backing brown some. Maybe at 1500W things would have been better if my boiler were insulated. This is still on the 'to do' list.
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Re: Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Post by zed255 »

skow69 wrote:
Zed, sounds like your learning curve is right in schedule. You know, you can toss everything back in the boiler and run it again if you want to get the tails all pushed back to the end.
Thanks skow69.

I did entertain the idea of just chucking the product back in after I noticed the choking issue but just decided I will work on learning to make cuts on the run anyhow with the knowledge that I have some misplaced tails.

Just working on gaining experience. I'm not a distiller yet but hope after a few good runs I can start to think of distilling as one of my personal skills. Practise will gradually improve my skills and knowledge. Thanks to all for input so far.
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Re: Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Post by zapata »

Skow, I read der wo's comment as a good natured joke.

Zed, yeah, sorta. You will find some people advocating running at the bleeding edge. It is true that more power = higher volume of reflux. At the same time, more power = higher vapor speed, which offers less oportunity for gasses and fluids to interact.
Assuming LM and assuming a reasonable power range, say 1000-2500 w for a typical 2" column, then maximizing power is really only about maximizing take off rate. The reward is faster takeoff, risks are smearing/lower separation, puking and choking. Presumably you will use the LM valve to maintain the same reflux:product ratio, but if you monitor quality and fiddle with power you may find higher power requires a higher RR to compensate for the lower quality. Which as you found can then flood the column. (Edit, this isnt what happened to you, I think you choked when lower abv climbed the column because lower abv behaves differently from higher abv)

In an historical context, I think we currently see people pushing too much power into 2" columns. I think its because we all see people with 3-4" columns pushing mad power and with amazing takeoff rates. We all see reports of a gallon + azeo an hour and we want that too. Or we see custom made spp columns that run BEST at the bleeding edge, and want that too. But 10-15 years ago we saw many people running as low as 750 watts! 1000 to 1500w was probably standard.

Now I'm not saying we haven't made many advances in that time, but the 2" nixon stone was designed by and perfected by people running 2kw or less. The design has been optimized over time, but the physics remain the same.

All told you did a great job responding to pushing your column past the limit. I'd say unless you are trying to maximize collection rate at the expense of quality that you never even need to find the limit. Unless your packing job is whack, I can promise you will be happy with the product from 1500 watts. 3kw? Well you might just have to try both and see ;)

For what it's worth, I never pump more than 2kw into my 2" column. Also, MY goal for a refluxed sugar wash is a true neutral, some are happy with just mildly flavored high test.

You've got plenty of booze, you could always set your best jars to drinking now, and rerun the rest. The pickiest russians dilute to 40% rerun, and to 20% amd run again. You get 2 more runs to learn on, getting better quality each time.
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Re: Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Post by Still Life »

it only gets better from what you've learned.
Great write up.
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Re: Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Post by zed255 »

Ended up deciding to keep a little more than half for consumption after airing it out and going through the process of making the cuts. The rest will get tossed into the next run.

The process of making the cuts will take some practice as I can see already from trying it today. I usually drink beer or mixed beverages, so smelling and tasting (yes, diluted) at elevated ABV made it tough to judge. A little dilution definitely made some odours come out that might not have at full strength. My wife acted as my sanity check. I ended up with:

Jars 1 and 2 were quite clearly heads, into the feints jar for you two.
Jar three had a hint of the heads and I caught myself thinking greedy already, so into the feints jar for you too.
Jars 4 through 14 seemed pretty consistent. Tasted pretty good and a little nose but not at all unpleasant. Into a big jar for blending for you fellers!
Jars 15 through 19, as previously noted, was where things were going a little katty-wompus during the run. Checked them anyhow and found the product was variable, with much tails, very reminiscent of wet cardboard. I almost kept jar 16, then the wife said 'don't be greedy'. Into the feints jar for you guys - jar 16, you too.
Jars 20 to 22 seemed similar to jars 4 through 14, into the blend you go.
Jar 23 was hard to decide, but in the end I felt is was not quite worthy, off to the land of feints for you too.

Mixed up what I decided to keep and checked the combined ABV to find I was at about 94% overall on what I felt was fit for drink. All told my take was about 3L, after giving some to the Angels airing it out.

Had a light bevvy with it tonight after the 'work' was done and it disappeared into the mix without lending any notable booziness at all. This stuff is going to be sneaky methinks. One, two, three, floor. :shock:
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Re: Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Post by Pikey »

If that irritates you, you can add a little "booziness" by adding back some heads. :)
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Re: Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Post by zapata »

zed255 wrote:I almost kept jar 16, then the wife said 'don't be greedy'.
Wise woman there. You should marry her!

3 L at 94% is what, about 9 fifths @40%? Nice haul for a first run, and a one and done at that.
There truly is nothing finer than the first buzz off a new beverage. But the first buzz off the first time you've made a beverage? :lol:
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Re: Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Post by zed255 »

Pikey wrote:If that irritates you, you can add a little "booziness" by adding back some heads. :)
Hah, I generally like my likker to be 'silent'. I consider booze that shoves its way forward and loudly proclaims its presence not terribly enjoyable.

Some things such as Rum and Gin I want to taste and I like the flavour showcased. A neutral should just vanish into whatever you put it into, IMHO.
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Re: Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Post by zed255 »

zapata wrote:
zed255 wrote:I almost kept jar 16, then the wife said 'don't be greedy'.
Wise woman there. You should marry her!

3 L at 94% is what, about 9 fifths @40%? Nice haul for a first run, and a one and done at that.
There truly is nothing finer than the first buzz off a new beverage. But the first buzz off the first time you've made a beverage? :lol:
I did marry her, 21 years ago! She has always represented for me a voice of reason and provided reality checks when necessary.

Yup, the volume checks out, about 9 bottles if diluted. I know lots of folks here do dilute but any time I have had my hands on high proof I've just left it that way. I never drink likker straight, so I just use a measuring spoon (a slightly sloppy tablespoon works out just right, about 18mL) to make a drink instead of a shot glass. I suppose there is the risk of somebody getting into it without knowing how potent it is, but with it being just me and my wife at home and my adult child off at school it is unlikely. My daughter doesn't drink and she knows what it is anyhow.

I always found my beer or wine satisfying and I expect my own likker will be much the same. Something to be said for the 'I made it myself' feeling of satisfaction.
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Zed

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Re: Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Post by zapata »

There have been a couple cases of people accidentally getting into high proof, sometimes to disasterous ends. When I store straight neutral I label it as poison. Even if it is stored where nobody can get to it. One far fetched fear I have is that I die and the azeo comes out at my wake and kills everyone. But between that, occassional house guests, kids/teens of guests, family members who suddenly start drinking, burglars, etc its not a risk I want to take. Granted a burglar would deserve it, but it would be attention I don't want.
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Re: Spirit run using a sugar wash...

Post by zed255 »

And because it was mentioned to show the rig early in the thread, this is the still hooked up and operating during my second one and done run.
Full view.
Full view.
Head detail.
Head detail.
Thermometer reading. At my altitude and barometric pressure at that moment that was the expected reading for azeo production.
Thermometer reading. At my altitude and barometric pressure at that moment that was the expected reading for azeo production.
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Zed

When the Student is ready, the Master will appear.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
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