My first still chinese manufactured
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My first still chinese manufactured
Ferment:
I try to make sugar mash under 10% ABV (8%). Hope yeast not give much side flavors to this.
Total volume is around 16-17 litres
sugar 2kg
dextrose 0,3kg
bread yeast 11g (dry)
I started to mix yeast with dextrose, cool water. Why I use dextrose is to start ferment soon as possible. Wait those like 30 minutes, mean while mix sugar on hot water (2 liters), then put cool water on and mix those together. This today. Lets see what coming.
What I have never done is stilling, but ferments I have made few before. Actually I had equipment for that, but unknow reason I sold them few years ago. Now regret that, had to invest to these also few bucks.
About ferment, somebody all ready question about it. I dont know what can go wrong, its not rocket science. Just keep stuff clean/steril as possible and do not kill yeast with heat. I try to not stress the yeast so keep the ABV low and hope not get bad flavors to end product.
Re: My first still chinese manufactured
I'm no master but most of these guys add nutrients to neutral washes. Maybe try birdwatchers or another tried and true recipe? Maybe add a spoonful of tomatoes paste?
Re: My first still chinese manufactured
I agree. Aeration and nutrients seem to get a back seat when instead they are of grave importance.jon1163 wrote:I'm no master but most of these guys add nutrients to neutral washes. Maybe try birdwatchers or another tried and true recipe? Maybe add a spoonful of tomatoes paste?
If the yeast is kept happy, your distillation will be happy. Feed them.
I don't know Jabman, the more I read the more this distillation game looks exactly like rocket science.
Re: My first still chinese manufactured
I spoke about fermentation. What I read, nutrients start play role when you want high ABV at first place. I like KISS principle.fizzix wrote:I don't know Jabman, the more I read the more this distillation game looks exactly like rocket science.
But I think im wiser after 2 weeks or so.
Shame that had to start with poor equipment, but sometimes need to learn via hard way. At least there is much to improve.
Re: My first still chinese manufactured
Just to note. Fermentation started as planned, under 24 hours. Im pretty sure it started under 10 hours, but cannot prove that. Now airlock bubbles steady. I personally don't care about nutrition when ABV target is under 10%
I could add little bit more sugar or use less water to this. Calculated ABV is around 7.5-8%.
I also visited some second hand stores today and looking beer/milk keg. Saw couple promising, but very dirty ones. The one which I almost buy was around 30 litres I think and price was 15 euros (near $20) Problem is that 30 liters is way too big here now. I have maybe one option to run else bigger still in pot mode and later do second run here with smaller system. Lets see what happens later.
I could add little bit more sugar or use less water to this. Calculated ABV is around 7.5-8%.
I also visited some second hand stores today and looking beer/milk keg. Saw couple promising, but very dirty ones. The one which I almost buy was around 30 litres I think and price was 15 euros (near $20) Problem is that 30 liters is way too big here now. I have maybe one option to run else bigger still in pot mode and later do second run here with smaller system. Lets see what happens later.
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Re: My first still chinese manufactured
First, thanks for re-posting..
Dextrose is not utility as a food by the yeast, unless some gluco enzymes have been added to convert it to sucrose, otherwise dextrose is used to give the finish product a sweetness..
The 1118 yeast prefer a fermentation temp of 70 -71F, 74F is on the high side..
You would be best to try sugar wash from the True and Tried section to start with, at least until you get a handle on how to make a wash.. you are learning the hard way, take time to research by using the HD google search at the top the page, leave a space, and type in whatever you want to research..
Mars
You have about 1 pound of sugar per gallon (4 liters), which will give you about 5 - 6% wash, if it ferments dry (above 1.000).. for a 8 - 10% abv wash, you need at least 1.5 - 1.3/4 pounds..Jabman wrote: try to make sugar mash under 10% ABV (8%). Hope yeast not give much side flavors to this.
Total volume is around 16-17 litres
sugar 2kg = 4.4 lbs
dextrose 0,3kg = Yeast will not eat
bread yeast 11g (dry)
Dextrose is not utility as a food by the yeast, unless some gluco enzymes have been added to convert it to sucrose, otherwise dextrose is used to give the finish product a sweetness..
The 1118 yeast prefer a fermentation temp of 70 -71F, 74F is on the high side..
You would be best to try sugar wash from the True and Tried section to start with, at least until you get a handle on how to make a wash.. you are learning the hard way, take time to research by using the HD google search at the top the page, leave a space, and type in whatever you want to research..
Mars
Last edited by StillerBoy on Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "
– Albert Einstein
– Albert Einstein
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Re: My first still chinese manufactured
How does it seal at the lid/cover.. is there a gasket.. what holds the lid in place.. how does the condenser work..Jabman wrote:This what I end up. Yes, I know limitations about it, size is only 10 litres and so on. But this is only I can do right now. I will give it maybe few runs and try to prove my equipment later. It cost little bit over $100 (actually 105 euros).
For the price, you could have put something together.. such as 12 or 16 liter SS pot ( used ones are everywhere for a few dollars), with some 1.5" x 10 -12" copper pipe, some copper fittings, and a condenser for a lot less money, and 100 times better control..
Man, some people like to start the hard way.. just trying to help you start on the right foot, so you can enjoy the hobby, and make a good finish product that you can enjoy.. otherwise you will end up making junk which will take the enjoyment out of the hobby..
Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "
– Albert Einstein
– Albert Einstein
Re: My first still chinese manufactured
I dont know what you are referring, but this dextrose what Im using is especially made to fermentation for home brewers. If I would not be on budget, my whole sugar base would be this product, but its like 5x more expensive than table sugar here. Packet says that this is 100% glucose so yeast can start use it right away, not same as table sugar, but this is sure something you all ready knew.StillerBoy wrote: Dextrose is not utility as a food by the yeast, unless some gluco enzymes have been added to convert it to sucrose, otherwise dextrose is used to give the finish product a sweetness..
Wash calculator gives me 7.8 ABV at these amounts http://homedistiller.org/calcs/rad14701" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow (I calculate it with 2,2kg sugar, 0,1kg minus using 300g of detrose)
So I could basically add just little bit more sugar (few hundreds grams) if like.
But lets see how this goes. The reason I dont go higher ABV is that I dont want stress yeast and that way get unwanted smell or taste end product. This is test of course. Next run I could add little bit more sugar, who knows. Also need to get meters for next run.
Why you are so negative? Not everyone able to build systems and because this is here highly illegal so have to keep low profile what can ask and where.StillerBoy wrote:For the price, you could have put something together.. such as 12 or 16 liter SS pot ( used ones are everywhere for a few dollars), with some 1.5" x 10 -12" copper pipe, some copper fittings, and a condenser for a lot less money, and 100 times better control..
Man, some people like to start the hard way.. just trying to help you start on the right foot, so you can enjoy the hobby, and make a good finish product that you can enjoy.. otherwise you will end up making junk which will take the enjoyment out of the hobby..
Of course I try to improve when ever possible but this is what now coming. Better than nothing? And also dont forget, what you can get for say 10 bucks, not equals other side globe.
Re: My first still chinese manufactured
most important thing is that you have fun with it and it works for you. living in the states i have resources that others clearly have no real access to. if that still works for you, then rock it. maybe it will lead to bigger things, maybe not. just have fun with it.
I'm just the bank and the mule
post your still pics here
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=66917
post your still pics here
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=66917
Re: My first still chinese manufactured
He's not being negative, he's being realistic and trying to offer you good advice; there are many simple options which could be build without to much skill. And, If maintaining a low profile is a primary concern, buying a complete system isn't going to help.Jabman wrote:Why you are so negative? Not everyone able to build systems and because this is here highly illegal so have to keep low profile what can ask and where.StillerBoy wrote:For the price, you could have put something together.. such as 12 or 16 liter SS pot ( used ones are everywhere for a few dollars), with some 1.5" x 10 -12" copper pipe, some copper fittings, and a condenser for a lot less money, and 100 times better control..
Man, some people like to start the hard way.. just trying to help you start on the right foot, so you can enjoy the hobby, and make a good finish product that you can enjoy.. otherwise you will end up making junk which will take the enjoyment out of the hobby..
Of course I try to improve when ever possible but this is what now coming. Better than nothing? And also dont forget, what you can get for say 10 bucks, not equals other side globe.
The question of gasket material and fittings is one you should consider very seriously. Examine the pot gasket and all other connection points, silicone gaskets should be swapped out for PFTE or another non toxic alternate. This is for your safety as, in the presence of high temperature alcohol vapour unpleasant or toxic chemicals can leach out.
_____________________
EXPAT
Current boiler and pot head
Cross flow condenser
Modular 3" Boka - pics tbd
___________________
EXPAT
Current boiler and pot head
Cross flow condenser
Modular 3" Boka - pics tbd
___________________
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Re: My first still chinese manufactured
Thanks ExpaLlad.. some people just can not see the different, and that is in large because they have not researched, and therefore lack understand of hobby, and have watch to many youtube videos..
Jabman.. sorry if you think I'm being hard on you.. but, you need to take a step back.. researched, so you can get some understanding of what it all take in the hobby.. the answers are all here, up to how to bulld the simple pot setup stated, with almost no soldering required..
If, and there's a big if, you stick it out with the hobby, you will come to see that I'm giving some of the best advice, short of spoon feeding you..
Mars
Jabman.. sorry if you think I'm being hard on you.. but, you need to take a step back.. researched, so you can get some understanding of what it all take in the hobby.. the answers are all here, up to how to bulld the simple pot setup stated, with almost no soldering required..
If, and there's a big if, you stick it out with the hobby, you will come to see that I'm giving some of the best advice, short of spoon feeding you..
Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "
– Albert Einstein
– Albert Einstein
Re: My first still chinese manufactured
Welcome Jabman!Jabman wrote: Why you are so negative? Not everyone able to build systems and because this is here highly illegal so have to keep low profile what can ask and where.
Of course I try to improve when ever possible but this is what now coming. Better than nothing? And also dont forget, what you can get for say 10 bucks, not equals other side globe.
I AM A NOOB!
Been here reading & studying about 6 months and I usually preface my questions and comments with that caveat.
After looking at youtube videos and thinking I had it figured out, I ALMOST bought a Chinese pot, but luckily I found my way here.
First thing I figured out was I didn't know shit.
The advice I received was put in the work and READ. Then read some more.
I've read all the noob basics.
The topics that I'm interested in, - including a Tried & True Recipe - I've read from the beginning of the thread several times.
Reading from the beginning helps you understand the logic and process and you'll see questions you may have asked and answered.
Then if you still have questions, these folks can tell you've put in the work and are glad to help you.
One other tip - when I see comments to my questions, I DO check and see how long that person has been here. A lot of the "Old Pros" don't mince words or waste time, but they usually give the best advice.
Best of luck and Cheers!
Re: My first still chinese manufactured
I don't understand how you think that I haven't all ready done study about this? My goal is to get good column still but at this point, I go with these. I'm not sure terminology, so apology that. Have been in my mind all ready say 2-3 years theory about that column stuff.StillerBoy wrote:Thanks ExpaLlad.. some people just can not see the different, and that is in large because they have not researched, and therefore lack understand of hobby, and have watch to many youtube videos..
Jabman.. sorry if you think I'm being hard on you.. but, you need to take a step back.. researched, so you can get some understanding of what it all take in the hobby.. the answers are all here, up to how to bulld the simple pot setup stated, with almost no soldering required..
If, and there's a big if, you stick it out with the hobby, you will come to see that I'm giving some of the best advice, short of spoon feeding you..
Mars
And big problem also is that I cannot solder or weld nothing. So every connection need to be made nuts or similar, but that later stage problem and sure, I come here ask advice later.
All I hear here is that don't buy this, but not point out exactly what these chinese stuff are wrong, other than silicon seals, which can be replaced with better. When I get hand this what I ordered, I put photos and show what is the problem IMHO, when I see and TEST one.
Dont know still? I too do some research about posters and yours had only videos/photos those I looked (yes tl;dr all) Why not ordered chinese pot? What you have now? Photo or it didnt happen?Bamaberry wrote: After looking at youtube videos and thinking I had it figured out, I ALMOST bought a Chinese pot, but luckily I found my way here.
First thing I figured out was I didn't know shit.
Youtube? I like the chinese guy explaining this stuff. Didnt understand shit, but clear it came from worm. PROVED! (LOL)
Re: My first still chinese manufactured
My apologies.
good luck.
good luck.
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Re: My first still chinese manufactured
Points on "haven't done study..Jabman wrote:I don't understand how you think that I haven't all ready done study about this? My goal is to get good column still but at this point, I go with these. I'm not sure terminology, so apology that. Have been in my mind all ready say 2-3 years theory about that column stuff.
You go and buy a Chinese pick of junk.. to which a few members have already advised you to return it..
You go and start a sugar wash that that will probably go to where..
These are just a few that come to mind.. had you done studies with comprehension, you would not be advertising what it is you have and done..
Oh, and you come here and advertise to the forum, "look guys I'm getting into the hobby and look what I've bought and done".. if you think for a moment that this forum has no government agency as members, you better check out the internet and your computer works.. because it is very easy to trace your IP in todays world of internet..
And one more thing.. checking how long a members has been registered as a member can be very deceiving, as not every member has registered at the start of his journey in the hobby.. my one yr has no equal to my many yrs in this hobby.. and I have need stopped learning, and I play with it every week.. a better way is to review the advise provided, but to be able to do so, one has to have comprehension of the hobby..
Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "
– Albert Einstein
– Albert Einstein
Re: My first still chinese manufactured
I really don't know what is your problem, but please do not reply any more on my threats or my posts.StillerBoy wrote:Points on "haven't done study..Jabman wrote:I don't understand how you think that I haven't all ready done study about this? My goal is to get good column still but at this point, I go with these. I'm not sure terminology, so apology that. Have been in my mind all ready say 2-3 years theory about that column stuff.
You go and buy a Chinese pick of junk.. to which a few members have already advised you to return it..
You go and start a sugar wash that that will probably go to where..
These are just a few that come to mind.. had you done studies with comprehension, you would not be advertising what it is you have and done..
Oh, and you come here and advertise to the forum, "look guys I'm getting into the hobby and look what I've bought and done".. if you think for a moment that this forum has no government agency as members, you better check out the internet and your computer works.. because it is very easy to trace your IP in todays world of internet..
And one more thing.. checking how long a members has been registered as a member can be very deceiving, as not every member has registered at the start of his journey in the hobby.. my one yr has no equal to my many yrs in this hobby.. and I have need stopped learning, and I play with it every week.. a better way is to review the advise provided, but to be able to do so, one has to have comprehension of the hobby..
Mars
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Re: My first still chinese manufactured
I don't have a problem.. live is very well understood.. but you on the other hand.. have the problem..Jabman wrote:I really don't know what is your problem, but please do not reply any more on my threats or my posts.
Your ego is standing in the way, its need to prove that your are knowledgeable in the endeavour you have undertaken..
Sorry for having frustrated you or angered your ego.. best of luck in your journey... it was meant to be of assistance to you, nothing more..
Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "
– Albert Einstein
– Albert Einstein
Re: My first still chinese manufactured
When you start put words on my mouth what I didn't say, you cross the line. Again I ask you, please do not comment any more on my posts. I don't know here is ignore option, need to have check.StillerBoy wrote:I don't have a problem.. live is very well understood.. but you on the other hand.. have the problem..Jabman wrote:I really don't know what is your problem, but please do not reply any more on my threats or my posts.
Your ego is standing in the way, its need to prove that your are knowledgeable in the endeavour you have undertaken..
Sorry for having frustrated you or angered your ego.. best of luck in your journey... it was meant to be of assistance to you, nothing more..
Mars
Re: My first still chinese manufactured
move it along gentlemen.
not sure what else needs to be discussed here since it is all well documented in the forums.
Jabman, i'm happy for you that you purchased something you are happy with, I hope you stay happy with it. good luck with the ferment...yeast are pretty strong, maybe it will finish.
the only error i see in the thread is that dextrose should be fermentable, as a monosaccharide. It is glucose. Perhaps it was confused as dextrin, which is a polysaccharide and unfermentable.
I don't think any one (experienced with it) would recommend this still as a "go-to" must have piece of equipment. Frankly it is a POS and you can build or buy better. Doesn't mean that you cannot make likker with it. Also don't think my opinion matters a whit on the subject. If you are happy with it, i'm happy for you...but i don't recommend it as a quality option.
i'm gonna lock it, since I can't see anything but an argument coming. if someone can think of something useful to add, go nuts. otherwise let it die.
not sure what else needs to be discussed here since it is all well documented in the forums.
Jabman, i'm happy for you that you purchased something you are happy with, I hope you stay happy with it. good luck with the ferment...yeast are pretty strong, maybe it will finish.
the only error i see in the thread is that dextrose should be fermentable, as a monosaccharide. It is glucose. Perhaps it was confused as dextrin, which is a polysaccharide and unfermentable.
I don't think any one (experienced with it) would recommend this still as a "go-to" must have piece of equipment. Frankly it is a POS and you can build or buy better. Doesn't mean that you cannot make likker with it. Also don't think my opinion matters a whit on the subject. If you are happy with it, i'm happy for you...but i don't recommend it as a quality option.
i'm gonna lock it, since I can't see anything but an argument coming. if someone can think of something useful to add, go nuts. otherwise let it die.
I finally quit drinking for good.
now i drink for evil.
now i drink for evil.
Re: My first still chinese manufactured
I'm just one impatient person so need to order this before anything else. My apologies. Photos coming next week. Maybe this documented, but didn't see any photos about it. I put photos and also tell what problems with this.HDNB wrote:move it along gentlemen.
not sure what else needs to be discussed here since it is all well documented in the forums.
Jabman, i'm happy for you that you purchased something you are happy with, I hope you stay happy with it. good luck with the ferment...yeast are pretty strong, maybe it will finish.
the only error i see in the thread is that dextrose should be fermentable, as a monosaccharide. It is glucose. Perhaps it was confused as dextrin, which is a polysaccharide and unfermentable.
I don't think any one (experienced with it) would recommend this still as a "go-to" must have piece of equipment. Frankly it is a POS and you can build or buy better. Doesn't mean that you cannot make likker with it. Also don't think my opinion matters a whit on the subject. If you are happy with it, i'm happy for you...but i don't recommend it as a quality option.
i'm gonna lock it, since I can't see anything but an argument coming. if someone can think of something useful to add, go nuts. otherwise let it die.
Later I will build LM or VM column, when I have time. Have all ready good plans to do so and looked eq all ready for that. (so dont worry, let me make my mistakes, you do your owns)
Oh, and fermentation, had to add one more pack yeast to it. I checked and have quality problems with yeast. Cheapest one and I think I put bin the rest few packs and buy next time better quality stuff. Bought hydrometer and it show clearly, nothing happened in pot. 1.050 2 days. Now bubbling again steady.
Re: My first still chinese manufactured
There's nothing wrong with your yeast that looking after it properly wouldn't have fixed. I mostly use the cheapest yeast I can get and it works fine.
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Re: My first still chinese manufactured
Jabman wrote:Oh, and fermentation, had to add one more pack yeast to it. I checked and have quality problems with yeast. Cheapest one and I think I put bin the rest few packs and buy next time better quality stuff. Bought hydrometer and it show clearly, nothing happened in pot. 1.050 2 days. Now bubbling again steady.
He is still defending his position of conviction that he fully understands what he's doing.. interesting..NZChris wrote:There's nothing wrong with your yeast that looking after it properly wouldn't have fixed.
Mars
" I know quite certainly that I myself have no special talent. Curiosity, Obsession and dogged endurance, combined with self-criticism, have brought me to my knowledge and understanding "
– Albert Einstein
– Albert Einstein
Re: My first still chinese manufactured
I'm not going to comment on your still choice as others have already told you. However, you claim you know what your doing and have done your research.
Have you done any cleaning runs? I didn't see you mention any. Your still needs to be properly cleaned before you can make drinking liquor with it.
Have you done the required reading for this forum? Right off the bat you jump into a random recipe that is "iffy" at best. The tried and true recipes section on this forum are there because there are the easiest, foolproof, no nonsense recipes you'll ever find. They've been used and tested by thousands of forum members for years.
Have you done any fermentation research at all? C'mon man. You claim you've been reading and reading and you know what your doing. BUT on your very first ferment you claim "fermentation has started as planned, under 24hrs" and then "bought hydrometer, clearly nothing happened". Your yeast was fine, I've used yeast over 2 years old with great results. You don't NEED nutrients for something to ferment but you also said you didn't want off flavours. That alone shows you don't know what your doing. If your that impatient you'll never make a great drop to drink, and 2 weeks reading won't get you far.
Nobody wants to see more people get into this hobby, or more people join this forum than I do, but this ain't easy. It takes alot of research, and alot of practice. Just slow down a little. Take some time to read the stickies in the "New Distillers Reading lounge" and you'll be well on your way. I hope you stick around bud!
Have you done any cleaning runs? I didn't see you mention any. Your still needs to be properly cleaned before you can make drinking liquor with it.
Have you done the required reading for this forum? Right off the bat you jump into a random recipe that is "iffy" at best. The tried and true recipes section on this forum are there because there are the easiest, foolproof, no nonsense recipes you'll ever find. They've been used and tested by thousands of forum members for years.
Have you done any fermentation research at all? C'mon man. You claim you've been reading and reading and you know what your doing. BUT on your very first ferment you claim "fermentation has started as planned, under 24hrs" and then "bought hydrometer, clearly nothing happened". Your yeast was fine, I've used yeast over 2 years old with great results. You don't NEED nutrients for something to ferment but you also said you didn't want off flavours. That alone shows you don't know what your doing. If your that impatient you'll never make a great drop to drink, and 2 weeks reading won't get you far.
Nobody wants to see more people get into this hobby, or more people join this forum than I do, but this ain't easy. It takes alot of research, and alot of practice. Just slow down a little. Take some time to read the stickies in the "New Distillers Reading lounge" and you'll be well on your way. I hope you stick around bud!
Swedish Pride wrote:
get a brix reading on said ball bearings and then you can find out how much fermentables are in there
get a brix reading on said ball bearings and then you can find out how much fermentables are in there
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Re: My first still chinese manufactured
Me too and mine is cheaper still.NZChris wrote:There's nothing wrong with your yeast that looking after it properly wouldn't have fixed. I mostly use the cheapest yeast I can get and it works fine.
'Stolen' from our family bakery.
Geoff
The Baker
Re: My first still chinese manufactured
Jabman.
Glad things are starting well for you. As you learn your still, it's going to be in your best interest to begin with a tested recipe, so that if it behaves differently than expected, the deviation points easily toward what needs adjusting.
There are several simple sugar wash recipes that are infinitely repeatable in the 'tried and true' section, and if you have questions, the experience of other members with the same recipe will help them answer your questions. Sometimes you won't like the answers, but after spending a fair amount of time here, I can tell you that pretty much everyone who will reach out, and who has reached out in this thread, are honestly trying to be helpful. Sometimes their answers are terse or seem confrontational, but I can assure you that's only because they've been answered hundreds of times previously in previous threads. Easy to find if you go to the top of the page, and use the HD Google search. Just put your search after the text that pops up on the search screen, and you'll be amazed.
Best of luck.
Glad things are starting well for you. As you learn your still, it's going to be in your best interest to begin with a tested recipe, so that if it behaves differently than expected, the deviation points easily toward what needs adjusting.
There are several simple sugar wash recipes that are infinitely repeatable in the 'tried and true' section, and if you have questions, the experience of other members with the same recipe will help them answer your questions. Sometimes you won't like the answers, but after spending a fair amount of time here, I can tell you that pretty much everyone who will reach out, and who has reached out in this thread, are honestly trying to be helpful. Sometimes their answers are terse or seem confrontational, but I can assure you that's only because they've been answered hundreds of times previously in previous threads. Easy to find if you go to the top of the page, and use the HD Google search. Just put your search after the text that pops up on the search screen, and you'll be amazed.
Best of luck.
Re: My first still chinese manufactured
StillerBoy, I put you on my ignore list. I don't know what you get by tossing new members. Maybe you are those who are perfect in every way and can that why think can say every body what to do etc.