Plastic codes

This hobby is fun & enjoyable, but it is not tiddlywinks. Be safe!

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white_likker1
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by white_likker1 »

rad14701 wrote:white_likker1, that seal "should" be okay for drinking proof spirits (100 proof or under) but I would not trust it for higher proof spirits...
Thanks RAD
Chew on this: In 1920 During Prohibition, President Harding kept the White House well stocked with bootleg liquor.
BCplumber
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by BCplumber »

I don't know if this helps, but I have a friend in the plastic industry. She is a lobbyist and writes for a plastic journal. Last time I saw her she told us that plastic used for food containers and heat don't mix. Beverage bottles in the sun was a big no, no. TV dinners too. She makes her husband take the food out of the tray and put it on a ceramic plate before heating it. Next time I see her I will find out about alcohol tolerance. Safety first!
white_likker1
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by white_likker1 »

BCplumber wrote: She makes her husband take the food out of the tray and put it on a ceramic plate before heating it.
Makes alot of sence to me...
Chew on this: In 1920 During Prohibition, President Harding kept the White House well stocked with bootleg liquor.
BCplumber
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by BCplumber »

Plastic leaches some nasties when heated. I am a little freaked out by putting hot backset into a foodgrade plastic bucket to disolve sugar quickly. Just acquired a 5 gal. stainless stockpot from a recycle bin for that purpose. I wish there was more published about alcohols interaction with plastic.
wheresthereef
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by wheresthereef »

New to this craft, but have been making beer and wine for years. I also used to work in the plastics industry.

Please realize this is just my opinion.

Per Tater's post. Please look at your plastic codes.

1, 2, 4,and 5 are safe for most of our purposes. Neither the alcohol content, the amount of time, nor the temperature that we ferment at will cause any problems. I personally would not use these or any other kind of plastic for long term storage of any kind of alcohol as the jury is still out on the potentials of leaching, I don't care what the alcohol industry says.


- Someone mentioned hot backset. Personally I wouldn't put hot backset in a plastic bucket even if it is food grade. Heat is plastics biggest enemy and makes it unstable. This increases the likelyhood of any form of leaching. Pour it in a BOP or a couple of smaller ones to cool first. There probably is very, very little danger, but why not error on the side of caution.
- The PET better bottles are fine for fermenting.
- Code 5 plastics tend to absorb odors and stuff more than other plastics. Don't really know why just know they do. I have a 30 gallon barrel that is code 5. I use it to mix 20 gallon batches, but I don't ferment in it. I mix everything then put it in carboys. However I honestly doubt that you would get flavors from one batch into the next if you fermented in them.


***On a personal health note. It really is recommended that you shouldn't microwave items in plastic containers. Especially do not microwave things wrapped in saran. Saran fumes and oils are carcinogens. It is fine for it's purpose of wrapping and refrigerating.
I'm a simple man, I like a simple band, and I use a simple pot still.
retlaw
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by retlaw »

heartcut wrote:The FDA has some of the best inspectors money can buy.
you got that right,
i read as much as 80% of the FDA hold seats on big pharma corp. boards,
they are payed very well from both sides,
SlideStiller
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by SlideStiller »

wheresthereef wrote: - Someone mentioned hot backset. Personally I wouldn't put hot backset in a plastic bucket even if it is food grade. Heat is plastics biggest enemy and makes it unstable. This increases the likelyhood of any form of leaching. Pour it in a BOP or a couple of smaller ones to cool first. There probably is very, very little danger, but why not error on the side of caution.
-
I second the hot backset comment. I'm in food manufacturing and put food in plastic day-in day-out. The HDPE (recycle code 2) food grade buckets we use are rated by the manufacturer for hot fill up to 160degF. I use a 5-gal stainless pail until the wash is down below 100deg and then transfer to a HDPE bucket. If I could locate enough stainless buckets and lids I'd stay with that, but I have an unlimited supply of free 5-gal HPDE with lids for fermenting, so that's what I'm going with.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by CuWhistle »

This topic is one area in which I asked a very newbie question, received answers, and have pursued further information, and in particular specific to Australia but not excluding worldwide.

Why? A local home brew supply / distilling shop proprietor gave advice regarding the production of a home made activated carbon vertical column filter. He told me that the one he personally used, he had made himself using PVC plumbing pipe. My question to the forum about the safety or not of this resulted in being advised of "The Rules by which we live". I found this thread and have read it front to back 3 times and followed the links provided herein. What I found was enlightening but still generated some confusion.

The plastic recycling / classification codes and there safety points are generally vague and uninformative. The table of chemical resistance for plastics "Ted Pella" provided by Ian Jay seemed to provide contradiction with PP (polypropylene) and PS (polystyrene) rated as "E" for excellent or totally resistant to Ethyl Alcohol, LDPE as partially suitable, HDPE - no test available and PC as not suitable. Have you ever put acetone in a polystyrene cup??? Not that acetone is alcohol but I am a bit surprised and I'll do my own little test.

Anyway the local pipe producer is called Vinidex so I've gone to their downloads and obtained the Chemical Resistance Guide and this is summary of the information relating to Ethyl Alcohol only.

Concentrations of alcohol are not defined, temperatures tested are 25 and 60 degrees Celsius.

Code Denomination
uPVC unplasticized polyvinyl chloride
PE polyethylene PE63 PE80 PE100
PP polypropylene
PVDF polyvinylidene fluoride
PVC-C chlorinated polyvinyl chloride
NBR butadiene-acrylnitrile rubber
EPM ethylene-propylene copolymer
FPM vinylidene fluoride copolymer

Class 1: high resistance
(corrosion proof)
All materials belonging to this class are
completely or almost completely corrosion
proof against the conveyed fluid according to
the specified operating conditions.

Class 2: limited resistance
The materials belonging to this class are
partially attacked by the conveyed chemical
compound. The average life of the material is
therefore shorter, and it is advisable to use a
higher safety factor than the one adopted for
Class 1 materials.

Class 3: no resistance
All material belonging to this class are
subject to corrosion by the conveyed fluid
and they should therefore not be used.


Class 0: The absence of any class indication
means that no data is available concerning the
chemical resistance of the material in respect
of the conveyed fluid.


ETHYL ALCOHOL CH3CH2OH
% nd 25 d C uPVC 1 PE 1 PP 1 PVDF 1 PVC/C 1 NBR 1 EPM 1 FPM 1
% nd 60 d C uPVC 2 PE 2 PP 1 PVDF 1 PVC/C 0 NBR 1 EPM 0 FPM 1

It also states that joining by use of the recommended primers and solvent glue produces joins at the same rating as the parent material.

Surprisingly it actually provides results from testing using Whisky,

WHISKY

% commercial 25 d C uPVC 1 PE 0 PP 1 PVDF 1 PVC/C 1 NBR 1 EPM 1 FPM 1
% commercial 60 d C uPVC 1 PE 0 PP 0 PVDF 1 PVC/C 0 NBR 0 EPM 0 FPM 0

It also gives information on Sealing Rings stating that Natural Rubber and Styrene Butadiene Rubber are generally resistant to alcohols.

Link to pdf file http://www.vinidex.com.au/files//techni ... tguide.pdf
rad14701
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by rad14701 »

CuWhistle, unfortunately, those numbers don't mean much to the average folk and that is why we steer them away from synthetics for the most part... But any information helps those willing to make their own informed decisions, should they choose to do so... However, it probably won't sway our stance here in these forums...
Dnderhead
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by Dnderhead »

Take note: these codes are "the type" of plastic.does not say if food safe.so it can be polyurethane thats food safe but with "purple dye toxic #7" or could have been recycled from the holding tank from johnny's boat. check to see whether it has contained food,.
CuWhistle
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by CuWhistle »

rad14701 wrote:CuWhistle, unfortunately, those numbers don't mean much to the average folk and that is why we steer them away from synthetics for the most part... But any information helps those willing to make their own informed decisions, should they choose to do so... However, it probably won't sway our stance here in these forums...
Hi Rad, trying to sway the stance of the forum relating to the use of "known to be safe" materials is certainly not my intention and to be completely honest, this document, while appearing to suggest the safe use of some palstics, does not provide me with 100% certainty. Close reading shows that it claims Class 1 as "completely or almost completely corrosion proof". That's like being a little bit pregnant. Also the data provided for Ethyl Alcohol is based on non-defined concentration, whereas other substances have definate measured and quoted strength and in fact Whisky is rated as Commercial (so 37 - 40 %).

My reading of this, though, would help me to accept that using unplasticed PVC drinking-water collection grade pipe, for the purpose of a carbon filter to be used with 40% or less at 25 d C is safe. I would not be happy to use it on 90% spirit at 60 d C but you would not operate a filter under those conditions anyway.

Having said this, I'll point out that I have collected the material to make a copper model.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by heartcut »

Keep in mind the difference between a material which will hold up under a compound and one which will not leach soluable substances into the handled material. When plastic makes the transition from new, flexible and strong to older and brittle, the plasticizers have gone elsewhere, most likely into the contact fluid in our case.
heartcut

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Re: Plastic

Post by Jethro57 »

I have some No 2 HDPE SPECIFICALLY MARKED AS FOOD GRADE 30 gallon barrels with screw on sealing lids, seems they would be fine to ferment in. What are the thoughts of using these barrels with an electric heating element as a still pot? I don't think they would melt until much higher temp than 200 degrees or so.

Thanks
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by CuWhistle »

Fermenting should be fine.
Not sure I'd be using any type of plastic for a boiler. Actually I certainly would not.
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Re: Plastic

Post by frozenthunderbolt »

Jethro57 wrote:I have some No 2 HDPE SPECIFICALLY MARKED AS FOOD GRADE 30 gallon barrels with screw on sealing lids, seems they would be fine to ferment in. What are the thoughts of using these barrels with an electric heating element as a still pot? I don't think they would melt until much higher temp than 200 degrees or so.

Thanks
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =35&t=5090
Rule 8.
Plastic fermenters = ok if foodegrade
Plastic still = likely to get you banned
Where has all the rum gone? . . .

Every new member should read this before doing anything else:
F6Hawk
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Re: Plastic

Post by F6Hawk »

frozenthunderbolt wrote:http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =35&t=5090
Rule 8.
Plastic fermenters = ok if foodegrade
Plastic still = likely to get you banned
It's a shame the rule did not properly spell the acronym HDPE. It's not High Poly Density Ethylene... :oops:
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by shinyhead »

I work in the food industry, specifically meat processing. I manage the somkehouse operations of a large scale smoked meats producer. Some people here in the states probably have eaten several of our products and probably still do. Just thought I'd throw that out there. :wink: We use the dreaded "silicone" sealants to seal up smokehouse doors, smoke generators etc. frequently. The USDA approves the sealant we use, and yes, the sealant is in direct contact with the heat and the product itself. My company did labratory tests on the finished for trace toxins associated with this "silicone" and found none. These tests were performed by an independent labratory at a very substantial cost. The lab testing had to be done by an independent lab for the USDA to approve it. There were no off flavors of the products, we have taste panels, daily and evaluate products on several criteria. the most important criteria is taste. This is what we use.

http://www.masterbond.com/tds/ep42ht-2fg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by jholmz »

shiny its not really the heat thats the problem its the heat mixed with high strength alcohol vaporsthe alcohol could break down the silicone, to me that is the worry about silicone in our hobby
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by shinyhead »

jholmz wrote:shiny its not really the heat thats the problem its the heat mixed with high strength alcohol vaporsthe alcohol could break down the silicone, to me that is the worry about silicone in our hobby
We use very, very caustic cleaning chemicals to clean our smokehouses and related equipment. I have seen this cleaning agent turn a pound of ground beef into liquid. Our leaks come from heavy items hitting doors and walls. When we seal them up, it doesn't leak any more. I am not trying to tell people to use it. Just giving them information that I have first hand experience with. If it is a concern for anyone, don't use it. Please don't think I am trying to debate it, I am just saying that for me, personally, I have no fears of it.
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Re: Plastic

Post by aqua vitae »

Jethro57 wrote:I have some No 2 HDPE SPECIFICALLY MARKED AS FOOD GRADE 30 gallon barrels with screw on sealing lids, seems they would be fine to ferment in. What are the thoughts of using these barrels with an electric heating element as a still pot? I don't think they would melt until much higher temp than 200 degrees or so.

Thanks
It's common to use HDPP food grade barrels with internal electric heating element for boilers in Scandinavia, but better safe than syntethic, so don't do it.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by MartinCash »

shinyhead wrote:
jholmz wrote:shiny its not really the heat thats the problem its the heat mixed with high strength alcohol vaporsthe alcohol could break down the silicone, to me that is the worry about silicone in our hobby
We use very, very caustic cleaning chemicals to clean our smokehouses and related equipment. I have seen this cleaning agent turn a pound of ground beef into liquid. Our leaks come from heavy items hitting doors and walls. When we seal them up, it doesn't leak any more. I am not trying to tell people to use it. Just giving them information that I have first hand experience with. If it is a concern for anyone, don't use it. Please don't think I am trying to debate it, I am just saying that for me, personally, I have no fears of it.
shinyhead,

Caustic cleaning chemicals are bases (such as lye) and detergents. They are not the same as solvents. Hot alcohol is a powerful solvent. Unless proved otherwise, a silicone is unsafe with hot alcohol and alcohol vapour because of what it may leach from it.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by mtndewman »

ok so for dumb ass sake.. is it ok or safe to ferment in 30 gallon storage totes from walmart???????
if you let the government run your life you will end up like the rest of the degenerates,,
IT'S NOT A FREE PLACE WHEN YOU CAN'T EVEN SMOKE OR DRINK WHAT EVER YOU WANT TO.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by akcom »

100% yes. Those totes are made from LDPE. LDPE is considered heat resistant (won't break down) until about 80C (170F). So as long as you're not boiling your mash in the plastic pail, you are good to go. Also, just as a heads up, the chemicals that plastics leach into water (if/when they do so) are non volatile. That means that when you distill out from your mash, those chemicals would be left behind and would not end up in your final product.
Perry85
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by Perry85 »

Would it hurt to store some 90 proof in a five gallon bucket for just a few weeks or is it going to ruin the whiskey? The bucket is #2 HDPE if that makes a difference.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by rad14701 »

Perry85 wrote:Would it hurt to store some 90 proof in a five gallon bucket for just a few weeks or is it going to ruin the whiskey? The bucket is #2 HDPE if that makes a difference.
I would avoid plastic for storage if at all possible... Surely you must have a better option using glass or stainless steel...
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phillmystill
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by phillmystill »

Hi there,

I for many years have worked in the plastics industry in the UK. Our company (one of the largest flexible packaging companies in the world), together with many other packaging producers used to print with inks containing dioctyl phthalate as a plasticiser. A few years back health concerns were raised about phthalates and their use was banned for our application and our inks were reformulated.

I guess what I'm trying to say is just because it's considered to be safe to use now, doesn't mean it is actually safe to use and there could be some level of risk attached to the use of any plastics. We as an industry are learning all the time. Also contamination can be an issue.

I can think of an example where we had some product which when processed into food-grade packaging had an unusual musky smell. The product was isolated, analysed and found to contain small amounts of a wood preservative (not approved for food-grade packaging). This was traced back to some pallets used by the resin manufacturer in the middle east which had sacks of resin stored on it. Thousands of £'s of product were scrapped and a large damages claim was filed against the resin producer.

I don't want to scaremonger just offer food for thought.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by RevSpaminator »

Wow. There it is to anyone who thinks we are being overly cautious. A veteran of the plastics industry even advises against using plastics with this hobby.

Thanks for spelling it out Phil.
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Tokoroa_Shiner
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by Tokoroa_Shiner »

Hmmmm yes, well, hmmmm
Must read topics for new members

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phillmystill
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by phillmystill »

RevSpaminator wrote:Wow. There it is to anyone who thinks we are being overly cautious. A veteran of the plastics industry even advises against using plastics with this hobby.

Thanks for spelling it out Phil.
I don't advise against, just offer a cautionary tale.

My rule of thumb (I use) is low abv e.g. fermenting, racking etc. FOOD GRADE uncoloured HDPE, LDPE or PP.

On the spirits side I stear clear if at all possible. Glass jugs, sample jars, stainless funnels, bottles etc.
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Re: Plastic codes

Post by C2-H5-Oh »

Question: Distillate tubing on my new Russian still, which was prolly PP, I recently replaced with high temp HDPE tubing rated for 100% propanol from McMaster Carr. Tube length is 18".
Is this considered reasonably safe? I'm currenntly sourcing SS and Cu tubing as well, but feel OK with the HDPE. What do you think?
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