Blue Crystals only in Low Wines

[Pamulli]

I'm very hesitant to bring this up since there are so many posts on blue distillate, but what I'm seeing is a little different than anything I can find so I'm asking for some help. I've read this thread http://ww.homedistiller.org/forum/viewt ... 33&t=16667 this thread http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=19850 and this thread http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... e#p7275807 as well as done a general search.

So my issue is that I had blue particles form on the top of my glass carboy after storing my low wines. From what I understand, this is copper salts and they aren't good. I didn't realize this was bad and ran everything a second time for my spirit run and have not seen any blue crystals and at no point has the distillate been blue. I have a pot still with copper column and a copper leibig and I always try to rinse everything after a run, but it's possible that my leibig missed a rinse at some point. I also only do 100% barley with ale yeasts and no added nutrients so I don't believe it is from too much nutrients in the wash. I'll definitely do a good cleaning with citric acid before my next run.

So my question, is whether my final spirits are reasonably safe to drink given that I haven't found any blue particles in them or the feints from the spirit run and everything is crystal clear? In one of the sources I saw debated in the above threads it mentioned that ethyl carbamate comes through in very low portions during the hearts of the second distillation, which makes me think this should be reasonably safe to drink? I have 6 gallons of final spirits that took me a very long time to make so I really don't want to throw them out or start over unless I really have to.

Thanks,

[DAD300]

Ethyl Carbamates would be clear in low concentration and white in extreme. The kicker here is that the blue appeared/formed after short storage.

Copper in the distillate will react to form EC's in long storage.

Multiple distillations remove the precursors.

You've been here a long time. I did a quick look and saw nothing about your still. But you say you have a copper liebig. If you made a copper liebig, you can make a SS.

I bet your fine, but if you're worried get a SS Product Condenser and run them again. Copper ascending is good, Copper descending is bad...it will deposit copper in the distillate. Every subsequent distillation removes the precursors of EC's.

[Pamulli]

Thanks Dad300. I have been around for a while, but I took a very long break and just got back to it. Half of my low wines actually sat for a couple of years before being run recently.

After this experience I have been considering building a SS condenser although that won't remove all the copper in my descending path. This is my build without the condenser. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p6826585

[MDH]

It's caused by acetic and other acids reacting with copper in the still, eventually heavier fatty acids react with those compounds and make insoluble precipitates that are basically copper-soap.

[Gleedaniel13]

I'm very hesitant to bring this up since there are so many posts on blue distillate, but what I'm seeing is a little different than anything I can find so I'm asking for some help. I've read this thread http://ww.homedistiller.org/forum/viewt ... 33&t=16667" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow this thread http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=19850 and this thread http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... e#p7275807 as well as done a general search.

So my issue is that I had blue particles form on the top of my glass carboy after storing my low wines. From what I understand, this is copper salts and they aren't good. I didn't realize this was bad and ran everything a second time for my spirit run and have not seen any blue crystals and at no point has the distillate been blue. I have a pot still with copper column and a copper leibig and I always try to rinse everything after a run, but it's possible that my leibig missed a rinse at some point. I also only do 100% barley with ale yeasts and no added nutrients so I don't believe it is from too much nutrients in the wash. I'll definitely do a good cleaning with citric acid before my next run.

So my question, is whether my final spirits are reasonably safe to drink given that I haven't found any blue particles in them or the feints from the spirit run and everything is crystal clear? In one of the sources I saw debated in the above threads it mentioned that ethyl carbamate comes through in very low portions during the hearts of the second distillation, which makes me think this should be reasonably safe to drink? I have 6 gallons of final spirits that took me a very long time to make so I really don't want to throw them out or start over unless I really have to.

Thanks,

Yes, this have similar post from others. Good thing is that it also have a slight difference which makes it more interesting information for others. It really help us to differentiate.

[skow69]

It's caused by acetic and other acids reacting with copper in the still, eventually heavier fatty acids react with those compounds and make insoluble precipitates that are basically copper-soap.

So what's the fix?

[shadylane]

Half of my low wines actually sat for a couple of years before being run recently.

The problem is obvious, your not distilling or drinking often enough.

[Dan P.]

I had this problem recently;
Two strip runs- no blue gunk.
Spirit run- butt load of blue gunk.
I'm still scratching my head over it.

[Ferment_It]

I had this problem recently;
Two strip runs- no blue gunk.
Spirit run- butt load of blue gunk.
I'm still scratching my head over it.

Had the same problem a while back. It ended up being my dilution water. I was using limestone spring water which is really hard. Once I switched to regular tap water for diluting low wines and the problem went away.

[Dan P.]

No, this was not a hard water problem.
This was bright azure chunks of copper soap (as per MDH's post), and lots of 'em.
It has happened to me with this most recent distillation, and a while ago when running a panela spirit run.
I attribute it to a buils up of greasy shit in the condenser.
I know that the Ethyl Carbamate thread was shut down (mysteriously, in my opinion), but EC or no EC I am ready to switch to SS in my condenser (now if only I hadn't gotten rid of my tig rig ).

[MDH]

It's caused by acetic and other acids reacting with copper in the still, eventually heavier fatty acids react with those compounds and make insoluble precipitates that are basically copper-soap.

So what's the fix?

Clean your still out, redistill

[DAD300]

Long Term fix...is have only Stainless Steel in the descending path of a still.

EC post is always in my signature. You can make a very nice SS Dimroth Product Condenser from a keg spear with no welding! Look for my post on Condensers.

[thecroweater]

I know that the Ethyl Carbamate thread was shut down (mysteriously, in my opinion), but EC or no EC I am ready to switch to SS in my condenser (now if only I hadn't gotten rid of my tig rig ).

I guess it had run its course in the opinion of some, some that like ss , as for me I will argue against bullshit till the sun goes down and some, also some were using it as a soap box to chip at rule 8
Blue krud is in the tails, I don't drink tails that ain't blue either

[Dan P.]

I know that the Ethyl Carbamate thread was shut down (mysteriously, in my opinion), but EC or no EC I am ready to switch to SS in my condenser (now if only I hadn't gotten rid of my tig rig ).

I guess it had run its course in the opinion of some, some that like ss , as for me I will argue against bullshit till the sun goes down and some, also some were using it as a soap box to chip at rule 8
Blue krud is in the tails, I don't drink tails that ain't blue either

I think it's a shame as there was still much to be discussed on the subject, and being objective as possible, I do not believe it came close to being resolved.
Anyway, pertaining to my blue gunk; it wasn't in the tails. It wasn't some kind of haze of blue-ish white-ish tint or fine suspension.
It was some pretty crazy bright blue chunks.
I put it down either to the particular mash or wash and how compounds in that react with copper.
Or, more difficult to take, but perhaps more likely, it is a basic still maintenance/cleanliness problem.
One of the problems of having a worm, it is impossible to know that they are truly clean, especially as the main culprit would seem to be oils, and how do you get those out without using detergent? We mostly rely on the high-proof of the heads to clear them out.
And that's why I've never started a "blue distillate" thread, because you soon find yourself chasing your own tail, or at least until you admit that you would never get blue distillate at all with a ss condenser, and act (fork out) accordingly.

[carbohydratesn]

I think it's a shame as there was still much to be discussed on the subject, and being objective as possible, I do not believe it came close to being resolved.

I feel like that thread resolved it completely. There's more than enough evidence in there that copper catalyzes ethanol into ethyl carbymate over time, it's just that a few people had no idea what they are talking about and kept misunderstanding this fact.

To me, it's very thoroughly resolved, and accordingly I'm working on replacing all the copper in my descending path with SS.

[Dan P.]

I think it's a shame as there was still much to be discussed on the subject, and being objective as possible, I do not believe it came close to being resolved.

I feel like that thread resolved it completely. There's more than enough evidence in there that copper catalyzes ethanol into ethyl carbymate over time, it's just that a few people had no idea what they are talking about and kept misunderstanding this fact.

To me, it's very thoroughly resolved, and accordingly I'm working on replacing all the copper in my descending path with SS.

Okay, then perhaps you could tell me why consecutive runs produce less EC, even though they are subject to the same amount of copper exposure in the condenser? Or perhaps in the studies done in commercial distilleries, the condenser was different to that of the wash still? Many commercial distilleries after all have more than one still and presumably more than one condenser. These seem like important details.
While I do not pretend to understand the chemistry exactly, and I feel quite justified in saying that the issue remains unresolved.

(To those who did not follow that thread, it isn't quite the same issue as blue gunk, and the meat of it, as I see it, is that Ethyl Carbamate may be present in your booze, and it may be carcinogenic, which seems kind of a moot pont when the booze itself is a proven carcinogen)

[MDH]

Alcohol is a proven carcinogen only when consumed in excess. This occurs when your liver is unable to process the amount you have subjected it to. Some people are able to handle more, some can not. Health organizations recommend no more than one and a half ounces per night as a "safe" standard since the actual number varies so much, and generally after a meal or recently having consumed water.

As has been pointed out, of course, many of the most toxic components of distilled spirits are in fact not the ethanol at all, but other compounds such as Carbamate, or high copper content, which can damage brain, kidneys, etc.

As I've said for the case of copper, you will want to redistill it if your distillate comes out blue, and make sure this time that you have run both vinegar and then water through the condenser before distillation. The spirit will be clear and safe to drink. Blue distillate is caused when acids react with copper hydroxide in the condenser, which occurs if you haven't used it for some time. The copper compounds created by this are too heavy to make it through distillation.

[Dan P.]

As I've said for the case of copper, you will want to redistill it if your distillate comes out blue, and make sure this time that you have run both vinegar and then water through the condenser before distillation. The spirit will be clear and safe to drink. Blue distillate is caused when acids react with copper hydroxide in the condenser, which occurs if you haven't used it for some time. The copper compounds created by this are too heavy to make it through distillation.

I think there are a number of reasons why distillate will come out blue. In my case I seem to be getting blue solids out of a clean copper condenser, which makes me think the situation is more complicated than the "folk remedy" of water or vinegar. Indeed, the condenser is the theater in which the play of so many different compounds, the rate and temperature at which they condense, and the residues they may leave is so complicated, that to say "use vinegar, dude" comes across as fairly facile.
You also say; "Blue distillate is caused when acids react with copper hydroxide in the condenser... The copper compounds created by this are too heavy to make it through distillation", which is oxymoronic, but, without making this personal, you state it with such confidence that it may be taken as informed fact by some.

To which end, I will give my own remedy for blue distillate, the cause of which may be due to any number of things;

1. Filter out the blue gunk as best you can using coffee filters, fine cloth or cotton wool.
2. Redistil.

Simple as that.

[thecroweater]

I don't understand how you guys keep getting this issue. I get jellyfish and sometimes a blue tinge in very late tails just before backins and the only other time is if I haven't ran my still for a long time and left it dirty, then I get copper salts in my first have of my forever shots. Even with my pot still stripping they never made it into the heads

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

I don't understand how you guys keep getting this issue. I get jellyfish and sometimes a blue tinge in very late tails just before backins and the only other time is if I haven't ran my still for a long time and left it dirty, then I get copper salts in my first have of my forever shots. Even with my pot still stripping they never made it into the heads

I'm with you, never seen the blue, ever. I've never cleaned my head or Liebig either since my cleaning runs, aside from a quick rinse if it's been sitting for a while to get the dust bunnies out.

[DAD300]

QUOTE---
"Okay, then perhaps you could tell me why consecutive runs produce less EC, even though they are subject to the same amount of copper exposure in the condenser? "

Answer-

Multiple distillations reduce the precursors that react with the copper. As they reduce, so do they EC's and the other copper reactions, i.e. blue tint.

Even though the EC post wasn't meant to address the Blue Distillate issue...the answer is the same. Eliminate the copper in the downside, descending, Product Condenser, exposed to ethanol vapor or liquid... This will eliminate all copper and all copper reactions in the distillate.

If you have copper in the downside and have never seen Blue Distillate, you have very clean boiler charges or you drink your stuff faster than it can precipitate.

Dan...I will say it is a fact! I provided at least ten research papers that say so. Other countries have outlawed the levels of copper and EC's in finished commercial booze.

When hot ethanol, vapor or liquid contacts clean or dirty copper, there are reactions. Copper is NOT INERT! One is that the copper microscopically sheds and flows to your collection cup.

All of these issues EC's and Blue Distillate are caused by reactions to copper in the downward path. No copper in the descending path, leads to no copper in distillate...no EC's and no Blue Distillate.

TWO DIF problems solved by no copper in the descending path.

As a hobbyist, we make the copper problem worse by letting the gear sit in between uses. We also create ferments, washes and beers with higher concentrations of precursors than our commercial counter parts.

Pamulli said his copper appeared as precipitate in the top of a carboy after storage.

thecroweater says " I get jellyfish and sometimes a blue tinge in very late tails just before backins and the only other time is if I haven't ran my still for a long time and left it dirty, then I get copper salts in my first have of my forever shots.".

If he sees it there, it is in the entire collection.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =carbamate

No issue...I promise...as long as you are informed, make and drink what you like. Hey, I smoke cigars! But I do so informed.

[MDH]

As I've said for the case of copper, you will want to redistill it if your distillate comes out blue, and make sure this time that you have run both vinegar and then water through the condenser before distillation. The spirit will be clear and safe to drink. Blue distillate is caused when acids react with copper hydroxide in the condenser, which occurs if you haven't used it for some time. The copper compounds created by this are too heavy to make it through distillation.

I think there are a number of reasons why distillate will come out blue. In my case I seem to be getting blue solids out of a clean copper condenser, which makes me think the situation is more complicated than the "folk remedy" of water or vinegar. Indeed, the condenser is the theater in which the play of so many different compounds, the rate and temperature at which they condense, and the residues they may leave is so complicated, that to say "use vinegar, dude" comes across as fairly facile.
You also say; "Blue distillate is caused when acids react with copper hydroxide in the condenser... The copper compounds created by this are too heavy to make it through distillation", which is oxymoronic, but, without making this personal, you state it with such confidence that it may be taken as informed fact by some.

Alcohol and acids rise through the still and then enter into the condenser, which is made of copper. Acids react with trace basic copper minerals in the condenser, including copper hydroxide, copper carbonate and copper (II) oxide, especially in pot distillations when there is more water being condenserd as well as alcohol. The reaction of the acid with the copper base produces soluble copper compounds of the short chain carboxylic acids, such as lactic acid, vinegar and so on, which are a deep blue color. This turns the distillate blue.

When run vinegar through the still, you deliberately produce these soluble copper compounds, removing all trace minerals in the process and leaving shiny copper behind. If your copper is truly clean, it should not be very reactive. If you don't want to "Just run vinegar through man", you can also remove the condenser and run citric acid solution through it. You'll have beautiful, bright, shiny pink copper in no time, and unless you allow it to develop a new patina, you will not have blue distillate in the next distillation.

Though acid isn't the only condition under which this occurs. Similarly, high-nitrogen ferments will produce ammonia, which will react with copper in very small quantities to produce copper-ammonia complexes of oxyanions (think Sulfur oxides). From either base or acid caused copper compounds, metathesis produces copper compounds of long chain fatty acids, which have extremely low solubility in water. These fatty acids come from the breakdown of yeast cells or grain so their presence is perfectly expected in distillate, especially low wines.

When these heavy copper compounds are added to the still again, to be redistilled, the molecule is far too heavy to make it back through the distillation process and back to the condenser. The heavy carboxylic acid copper compounds will remain in the boiler after the distillation. You will recieve clear, drinkable, safe distillate.

Does this make sense now?

[aceswired]

I get blue only after I've gone too deep in tails on the previous run. Started getting the problem after I started AG because I was trying to make up for lower yield by running deeper. Something in those deep tails is reacting with the copper. Now I stop at 20%, give or take, and that helps.

[Dan P.]

DAD, MDH, thank you for your input.

[thecroweater]

Oh Dad you crack me up , the reason I occasionally see it in the first 20mls is because that salts/oxide are exhausted by then. its cool, not the first time I've seen data used to fit a pre-determined hypothesis

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

This is all I need to convince me that my copper condenser is fine.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_carbamate

It has been shown that ethyl carbamate forms from the reaction of ethanol with urea
This reaction occurs much faster at higher temperatures, and therefore higher concentrations of ethyl carbamate are found in beverages that are heated during processing, such as brandy, whiskey, and other distilled beverages. Additionally, heating after bottling either during shipping or in preparation will cause ethyl carbamate levels to rise further.

The urea in wines results from the metabolism of arginine or citrulline by yeast or other organisms. The urea waste product is initially metabolised inside the yeast cell until it builds up to a certain level. At that point, it is excreted externally where it is able to react with the alcohol to create ethyl carbamate.

....

Although the urea cannot be eliminated, it can be minimized by controlling the fertilization of grape vines, minimizing their heat exposure, using self-cloning yeast[8] and other actions.[9] Furthermore, some strains of yeast have been developed to help reduce ethyl carbamate during commercial production of alcoholic beverages.[10]

Another important mechanism for ethyl carbamate formation in alcoholic beverages is the reaction from cyanide as precursor, which causes comparably high levels in spirits derived from cyanogenic plants (i.e. predominantly stone-fruit spirits and cachaca).[11]

Have good ferments, with good yeast. Nothing in the article or its references talks of copper as a catalyst that I could see.

No mention of copper in the FDAs recommendations to control EC either.
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/Foodb ... 119802.pdf

[carbohydratesn]

They don't mention it directly, but this part -

This reaction occurs much faster at higher temperatures, and therefore higher concentrations of ethyl carbamate are found in beverages that are heated during processing, such as brandy, whiskey, and other distilled beverages. Additionally, heating after bottling either during shipping or in preparation will cause ethyl carbamate levels to rise further.

They mention that urea has been shown to do this. Copper has also been shown to do this, just like urea. That particular wikipedia article doesn't mention copper, but that doesn't mean it's not a factor...

And there's no way enough urea to matter would end up in distillate in normal circumstances, so how could heating after bottling cause ethyl carbamate levels to rise if there aren't other catalysts or reactants at play? They don't mention copper by name, but they are absolutely talking about things other than urea.

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

The only references to copper I've seen have only given indication that copper causes it to precipitate out of solution, the EC is there already, or the precursors to it (urea and alcohol). Heat causes the reaction to happen faster. One document (https://books.google.ca/books?id=vMDRLM ... er&f=false) that I just found, does mention copper as a catalyst and speaks of maximizing the formation of EC early in the distillation process to avoid the precursors carrying over into the distillate.

The ECO is going to form whether there is copper in the path or not, as long as the precursors are present. Which is why aging spirits have shown to have higher levels. Because the precursors have made it over, and are naturally forming. Removing copper isnt the solution, ensuring you have minimal urea in your ferment is. And perhaps adding a little extra copper into the vapour path if you have a short column, or stainless column. Heck maybe even add copper to the boiler if it's stainless to maximise EC formation in the boiler.

I find interesting that The FDA recommendations include: Winemakers should know the nitrogen status of their juices and not over-supplement with diammonium phosphate. (DAP)

How many recipes have I seen on the forums calling for DAP? How many people using it are using it correctly? How many users put just the right amount in and say "mm I'll just add a little more for good measure."

Also mentioned in the FDA document is the fact that lactic bacteria also generates urea.

Control the urea production in your ferment, and your EC Levels will remain manageable, and should be mostly knocked out of your distillate before it even reaches the condenser.

[thecroweater]

You are 100% DNS and I also believe DaP is over used however what really makes me cringe is reading methods advocating the use of urea and other urea based fertilizer. Rubbish about copper causing EC production only serves to distract from the real risk here

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

You are 100% DNS and I also believe DaP is over used however what really makes me cringe is reading methods advocating the use of urea and other urea based fertilizer. Rubbish about copper causing EC production only serves to distract from the real risk here

Thanks croweater,

Rad had a thread advising people to avoid using urea and urea based products, which is a definite good thing.

The use of dap, and lactic bacteria will probably continue to happen after all, what is a sour mash without the lacto?

But knowing that these methods cause extra urea production in the mash on top of the urea already produced by yeast, should be a reminder to those using the methods that an extra distillations or two will help to keep EC levels low in the final product.