Tin solder

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neil
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Tin solder

Post by neil »

I've got a safety related question about the solder on my still. It is made of pure tin solder, but actually contains 5% led to flow better. De solder itself is hardly in contact with the vapours and completely not with the wash.
Although the solder is made out of 95% pure tin and 5% led, is itsafe to use? And why is it, or isn't it?
just sayin
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Re: Tin solder

Post by just sayin »

Not with any Pb (lead). It must be lead free, I use 97% tin/ copper3% from Fry and braze copper to copper with Harris 0.
neil
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Re: Tin solder

Post by neil »

I fully agree. But unfortunately that is not how my still is soldered. So... Is mine safe enough to use in the condition as he is right now?
FtW
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Re: Tin solder

Post by FtW »

The descriptive word won't come to me right now, but lead builds up in the body. The lead leached out from the solder may not be enough to affect anything after each still run, but the tiny amounts of lead leached from all those still runs go into every bottle, & as they are ingested those micrograms of lead start adding up inside you.

Deliberately exposing yourself to this when it could be avoided without much effort seems pretty silly.
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Danespirit
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Re: Tin solder

Post by Danespirit »

neil wrote:I fully agree. But unfortunately that is not how my still is soldered. So... Is mine safe enough to use in the condition as he is right now?
HELL NO..!

That is the exactly reason why new members should read the novice distillers section.
Lead will leach into your spirits. While you may not recognize any off-taste, it's still in there and very dangerous!
A little story about ancient Rome rise and fall....there are reasons to believe their watersystem made out of leadpipes, highly contributed to the fall of the empire. People would simply go crazy because of lead poisoning.
Congrats..you just made yourself a still that is crap and will poison you if used!
The only thing you can do now, is to unsolder the whole thing. Maybe you can salvage some of the materials, IF you clean them properly from any lead solder.
neil
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Re: Tin solder

Post by neil »

Danespirit wrote: HELL NO..!

That is the exactly reason why new members should read the novice distillers section.
Lead will leach into your spirits. While you may not recognize any off-taste, it's still in there and very dangerous!
A little story about ancient Rome rise and fall....there are reasons to believe their watersystem made out of leadpipes, highly contributed to the fall of the empire. People would simply go crazy because of lead poisoning.
Congrats..you just made yourself a still that is crap and will poison you if used!
The only thing you can do now, is to unsolder the whole thing. Maybe you can salvage some of the materials, IF you clean them properly from any lead solder.
Hmmm.... Thats clear.

But again, it's not the regular lead solder that is 50/50 lead/tin. It's 95% tin.... We went over that allready. Nowadays there is lead in every drop of surface water and every fish in the sea. I wandered if the quantities that will dissolve in my whisky are significantly more that there are in tuna out of the ocean. Because the seems are on the outside and are just there to keep things air thight. The lead that will be able to dissolve will therefore be a tiny tiny tiny bit at most.

But... Better safe than sorry. I will tear it down, luckely it's only the lynearm and there are only five seems, and put it back together again with silversolder.

Btw: The guy who soldered the lyne arm used the same type of still with the same solder and didn't get sick or anything in over thirty years.
Danespirit wrote: That is the exactly reason why new members should read the novice distillers section.
Just for the record: I did read the novice distillers section and thats why I asked an experienced distiller to fabricate a lyne arm for me with leadfree solder. Eventually I got one with 95% pure tin solder... And thats not what I asked for. So now I am in a pickle.
bellybuster
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Re: Tin solder

Post by bellybuster »

FtW wrote: Deliberately exposing yourself to this when it could be avoided without much effort seems pretty silly.
I gotta go with this
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Tokoroa_Shiner
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Re: Tin solder

Post by Tokoroa_Shiner »

Get the guy that did it to do it again. You asked for lead free and didn't get it. Now you have something that is not usable. Get him to fix it and his cost.
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Drunk-N-Smurf
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Re: Tin solder

Post by Drunk-N-Smurf »

First off, are you sure it's 5% lead? Most 95/5 I've seen is 5% antimony, not lead. I've actually never seen lead based solder except for 50/50.
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just sayin
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Re: Tin solder

Post by just sayin »

Smurf,
There are many tin/lead alloys of solder in industry. In a former business I purchased and used thousands of pounds of 35/65 and 40/60 tin lead solder. For some applications in later years i used lead free 97% tin / 3% copper. I still have more than 60 pounds tens years after dissolving for business. I have used purchased and used solder than the average ten thousand people would use in a lifetime and I have never seen an alloy of 95% tin and any lead. The expensive tin is alloyed with antimony, silver or copper in all the cases ii have seen. I cannot say it is not done, I am agreeing the solder should be confirmed to have had lead in the alloy before it is disassemble.
I haven't purchased solder in 500+ pound units for more than decade, so I may be out of date. I have bought a couple of pounds of silver bearing solder retail from Ace Hardware at near $30/ pound. I use the silver bearing to "tin" stainless and join with 97 Sn/3 Cu because I am cheap. I braze copper to copper with Harris 0, a flux less high phosphorous/ copper alloy. I donated a couple a pounds of Harris Zip to a member here from many years ago, Pint-O-Shine, to complete his mini-model-Vendome he was building for the ADI Conference a few years ago. Harris 0 or zip is a wonderfully easy to use high temperature alloy to braze copper to copper.
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Re: Tin solder

Post by Drunk-N-Smurf »

I know there WAS lots of different lead solders, I just haven't seen anything in MY time aside from 50/50. Not for sale anyway. The last roll of 60/40 I saw was in my gramps toolbox.

Though I'm also not saying it doesn't still exist ;)
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Re: Tin solder

Post by HDNB »

neil wrote: Btw: The guy who soldered the lyne arm used the same type of still with the same solder and didn't get sick or anything in over thirty years.
George burns smoked a shit load of garo's in his 100 years. (didn't know the man so i can say how much how often (i'm arguing "old age"here)
the old man smoked for about 25 of his 81 years (lung cancer-doc said "from smoking")
my buddy smoked for 15 of his 51 years.(throat cancer-doc said "from smoking")

so maybe your buddy is like george burns, and maybe you are too.

maybe not.

Neil, lead is a proven cumulative toxin. not worth the risk. clean it carefully with gloves and dust mask and dispose of responsibly.

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neil
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Re: Tin solder

Post by neil »

As I said I am going to make a new lyne arm. But however, I wanted to carry on the discussion about the dangers and toxicity of lead, because some things came to mind. I also called up my buddy for a new lyne arm but he refused to make one for the following reasons:

-As a professional plumber, I have never ever seen a roll of lead-free solder in my or my colleagues toolboxes when we connect house to the water supply.
-The surface of the seams that contain only 5% lead are so small that when you would consume the entire top layer you would not get as much lead in your body as when you live in a house that is built before 1990 and drink one glass of drinking water every day. (those water pipes contain lead solder too, the 50/50 kind, old houses even have full lead pipes)
-my buddy works in the hospital as a chemical analyst and distills with the same still as we do. As an analyst he knows better than anyone, what the dangers are of lead poisoning. He says they are that small, that you will more likely die of alcohol poisoning of your own spirits, than of the little lead that comes out of this still in a long period of time.

We all know that lead is poison and it is dangerous and should be avoided at any cost. Although that may be entirely true, I want to assure myself that we’re do not overly concerned about the littlest of amounts (ppm) that will be ingested when we are exposed to far more dangerous things that we except as normal on a daily basis. Take for instants driving to work every day (how many people get killed in traffic?) or the air that we breathe when we are in a traffic jam.
Take for instants the BBQ season when we all eat a little piece of charred steak or chicken that contains high amounts of polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons and heterocyclic amines…. Or drink alcohol.
All of those things can be easily avoided, but we don’t. So the willingly exposing yourself to possible harm should be taken with a little nuance.

I asked a colleague to make a calculation of the quantity of lead that is presumed to solve in the spirits. He is a PHD technical researcher in the food industry. He came up with the following theory:

What percentage lead contains the tin solder? Take the example that there is 1% of pure lead in the solder and there is 10grams in total in the entire installation (that actually is 100% correct). The solder in the seams will be in little contact with the vapor. For example this will be 1/1000 part and of that about 1% will solve.

You then got 0.1%= 10grams * 1E-2*1E-3*1E-2=1 E-6grams of lead that can solve. Take for example that it will solve in 100 times distillation where you make 1ltr of spirit at a time. That is 1 E-6 grams per 100kg bodyweight is 1 E-11 gram per gram.

The standard for lead in drinking water for infants in Europe is <1 E-5 gram per liter = 1 E-8 grams per gram.

You would likely be 1000 times under the standard that is set for feeding infants.
Besides that, it also matters in which state the lead is solved in the solder. If it is in a metallic state, than it can do little harm. Only in a saline state is it highly solvable.

(My lyne arm contains solder with 5%lead so the results can be multiplied times 5 and still be 200 times below the standard.)

So, after reading this, is it totaly justifiable to be thát scared of a minimum amount of lead? A famous Duke, whose name is attached to a beer brand, lost his life of tin-poisoning by drinking out of a tin cup. We all use a lot of tin in our solders but I don't hear anyone complaining about the risks of tin-poisoning in this matter. So is the risk of getting sick with lead poisoning by this tiny amount of lead significant enough to conclude that it may affect your life at all? Or is it just the mere idea that there may be lead inside that may or may not solve in an uncertain amount that only theoretically will cause harm to you in a way that is not substantial enough to exclude usage? (like the tin/lead solder in our water supplies?)

Once again, can't tell you enough and don't get me wrong, I'm 100% pro-safety. The only thing I'm trying to do now is to figure out if we can come up with founded arguments that there is a considerable risk with lead in particular this small amount. (Facts and figures are nice)

I will keep the old lyne arm and make one run with it. I just want to see how much lead it really will contain. Now I'm in search for an analyst who can analyse the liquid for me. Than I can compare it with regular drinking water from the faucet of my own home.
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Re: Tin solder

Post by HDNB »

On another thread, i think it was Dad300 said "i smoke cigars" but i do it with knowledge of the risks.

obviously you understand the risks of lead ingestion. if you choose to ingest it, that's your business. In the threads we prefer to stick to the lowest risks possible and we don't want another new distiller stumbling accross this thread thinking "hey! lead's OK"...without having all the facts. not everyone researches as well as you do.

for the purposes of the forum no lead is acceptable. some is bad. lots is worse. It's not just me...google "lead poisoning" and the evidence from health care professionals is overwhelming.

please help us maintain the "safe to use" material list.
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Danespirit
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Re: Tin solder

Post by Danespirit »

HDNB wrote:On another thread, i think it was Dad300 said "i smoke cigars" but i do it with knowledge of the risks.

obviously you understand the risks of lead ingestion. if you choose to ingest it, that's your business. In the threads we prefer to stick to the lowest risks possible and we don't want another new distiller stumbling accross this thread thinking "hey! lead's OK"...without having all the facts. not everyone researches as well as you do.

for the purposes of the forum no lead is acceptable. some is bad. lots is worse. It's not just me...google "lead poisoning" and the evidence from health care professionals is overwhelming.

please help us maintain the "safe to use" material list.
You got the point there HDNB..
We DO NOT condone any kind of lead containing materials in the build of a still...period!
I don't give a shit if your buddy lived 30+ years without any harm done, fact is .. LEAD IS POISONOUS!
So please don't give the impression of that i doesn't mater if you use lead contaminated (deliberately using the term "contaminated") solder to joint your things together! It is and has never been safe to use..that's it..!
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Re: Tin solder

Post by rad14701 »

Get a lead test kit and test it... If it tests positive, don't use it... Period...!!! I don't give a rats ass what the guy that soldered it thinks...!!! Get serious about safety... Your health, and that of those you may share your spirits with, depends on it... We have rules for a reason so don't ask us to waver on them for you because you're either lazy or want to believe people who don't understand stills... Water in pipes doesn't get as hot as distillate does and water is not caustic like alcohol is... If that doesn't set you straight then there's no help for you here...

Edited to add: We have a couple members here who have posted their horror stories of lead poisoning... Trust me, you don't want lead poisoning and it is cumulative, meaning that once in your body it doesn't leave without major effort... It just continues to accumulate...
neil
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Re: Tin solder

Post by neil »

To conclude this post; I have tested the spirit on lead with a (relatively cheap) kit, and no lead came up. Nevertheless I tore the whole arm down and soldered it back together again, after cleaning it off course, with silver solder… just like I said I would.

Lead poisoning risks eliminated
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bitter
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Re: Tin solder

Post by bitter »

Good for you better safe than sorry!

B
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Re: Tin solder

Post by thecroweater »

Glad to hear, just for the record and benefit of future newbie readers of this thread no exposure of vapour to lead is safe mostly because it is an accumulative poison. Neil you never did say where you were from but where I am completely lead free solder is readily available and has been for many years, I only use lead free plumbing solder, lead free electrical solder is not so great either as it had a high levels of antimony and other potentially harmful additives
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