Fixing up my hot plate cycling, safely!

[thesource674]

Hopefully this is the best spot for this post but im looking to get rid of the thermal cycling on my hotplate as we are often told is necessary if you are going to use one. Attached should be an album of pictures of the innards of my hot plate. I highlighted where a piece actually moves to close the circuit and turn on the heating element but i dont know shit about electronics so I dont know what item IS the actual heating element, or what the cycler is that I need to remove.

Any help would be really appreciated!

https://postimg.org/gallery/1ac81r3qo/828c7b3d/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Imgur seems to be down so hopefully that hosting site works.

Cheers all

[skow69]

Referring to the component featured in the first two photos: If you take the two wires off of that device and connect them together the heater will be on all the time. That means that you will need, at least, a switch to turn it off, or, preferably, a controller so you can modulate the amount of heat input.

[NZChris]

You shouldn't have to mess with the wiring at all and it's best you don't if you don't know what you're doing. Get a controller that can be plugged in line with it, and turn the hot plate knob to its maximum.

[der wo]

It is a bimetal switch. It is temperature controlled with a sensor on the hotplate. Probably it even cycles when you turn it on maximum. So here I don't agree with NZChris.
Probably most simple is to connect the two thick black cables from the plug with the hotplate (one of them is connected right already) and throw out everything else but the green cable. And then connect the plug with a controller outside the case of the hotplate.

[rad14701]

thesource674, you'll get more responses if you post your images through the forums rather than relying on an external hosting site... I flat out refuse to visit external hosting sites because they are targets of malware and viruses... I get paid to clean other folks computers but get pretty pissed when I have to work on my own equipment... I've already replaced one of my hard drives this week after Windows 10 trashed it for me so I'm not a happy camper right about now... Please refer to the Image Uploading and Posting Etiquette topic in the Forum Rules, Notifications and Helpful Hints forum... You should have already read every topic in that forum...

[thesource674]

thesource674, you'll get more responses if you post your images through the forums rather than relying on an external hosting site... I flat out refuse to visit external hosting sites because they are targets of malware and viruses... I get paid to clean other folks computers but get pretty pissed when I have to work on my own equipment... I've already replaced one of my hard drives this week after Windows 10 trashed it for me so I'm not a happy camper right about now... Please refer to the Image Uploading and Posting Etiquette topic in the Forum Rules, Notifications and Helpful Hints forum... You should have already read every topic in that forum...

Sorry about that! I must of missed it as I did try to go through the spoonfeeding and all the other threads before I started posting, there is quite a bit...wont happen again my apologies!

Referring to the component featured in the first two photos: If you take the two wires off of that device and connect them together the heater will be on all the time. That means that you will need, at least, a switch to turn it off, or, preferably, a controller so you can modulate the amount of heat input.

Yup I have a controller and its a turn knob with numbers 1-12 so i assume once i turn it to twelve thatll count as "on" and the regular off will be...off... Between you and der wo's comments i think I know what to connect, I wont destroy anything just yet but ill remove pieces and repost photos (Properly as per Rad's request) to see if I did it right. Thanks a ton guys!

[thesource674]

Now one other comment I had was someone saying they replaced their wiring with high temp wires because if its on all the time it can overheat or what not. Is that really necessary or should it be fine as is? I dont mind shelling out a little extra cash for safety.

[der wo]

If it gets too hot, it gets too hot... It is about the insulation of the wires. For the copper the heat is no problem of course.
The two thick black wires look like they have a very heat stable insulation.

Because it has a thermo sensor I think it will cycle after heating up even on 12. If you remove this electric and for example let it run at full power without a pot on the hotplate, after a while it would start to glow and plastics from the case would melt perhaps. So by removing the sensor you also remove the overheat protection. Generally a stable construction, a solid case will help, running the hotplate at full power many hours. A flat thick sandwich bottom helps here muuuch to conduct the heat to the mash. If you use a thin ss champagne cooler for the still, a hotplate is for sure the worst solution to heat it.

Yes, better post the pictures here on the site and wait. Perhaps you get better comments.

[thesource674]

If it gets too hot, it gets too hot... It is about the insulation of the wires. For the copper the heat is no problem of course.
The two thick black wires look like they have a very heat stable insulation.

Because it has a thermo sensor I think it will cycle after heating up even on 12. If you remove this electric and for example let it run at full power without a pot on the hotplate, after a while it would start to glow and plastics from the case would melt perhaps. So by removing the sensor you also remove the overheat protection. Generally a stable construction, a solid case will help, running the hotplate at full power many hours. A flat thick sandwich bottom helps here muuuch to conduct the heat to the mash. If you use a thin ss champagne cooler for the still, a hotplate is for sure the worst solution to heat it.

Yes, better post the pictures here on the site and wait. Perhaps you get better comments.

Ok as long as you think the wiring is good. I think everything will be fine. Its a small copper alembic still about 3L so it doesn't get run for that long at once anyway. And to answer your questions yes it does cycle at 12 I can hear the clicks, I was referring though to once I remove the cycler and use the controller ill just always turn it to 12 to turn it "on" and then let the controller do the work as I believe is the whole point of this shebang.

Thanks and cheers!

[NZChris]

And to answer your questions yes it does cycle at 12 I can hear the click

Does it do that with a boiling pot on it, or only when there is nothing on it?

While you are using a controller during a run, I doubt there would be enough heat to trigger the thermostat set to full. My 6.5l pot only gets about 50% power, (700W-900W), during a run.

[der wo]

If you have removed the cycler it will be on full power regardless of the knob setting. Depends on what you have removed from the cycler...

An alembic has a very thin and perhaps not 100% flat bottom, that's bad. But copper is an incredible good heat conductor, that's good. I don't know if the setup will work well. Be careful, check if the hotplate starts to glow or if you smell the insulation melting.

Without holding the hotplate in my hands I am not 100% sure, how to fix it. On the "Overview" picture 2cm besides the center is a square hole. Here I think is the connection to the heating loop. If I am right connect here the two thick black wires from the plug. And remove all other wires but the green wire.
Or if you find out how the on-off-switch works, connect one thick wire from the plug to the square, the other from the plug to the switch and one from the switch to the square. Then you can switch it on and off with the knob.
The problem is, I don't understand the two thin black wires. Is it for the on-off-switch or for a little lamp over the knob?

[thesource674]

And to answer your questions yes it does cycle at 12 I can hear the click

Does it do that with a boiling pot on it, or only when there is nothing on it?

While you are using a controller during a run, I doubt there would be enough heat to trigger the thermostat set to full. My 6.5l pot only gets about 50% power, (700W-900W), during a run.

Yes with stuff on it. It did it during my cleaning runs.

[thesource674]

If you have removed the cycler it will be on full power regardless of the knob setting. Depends on what you have removed from the cycler...

An alembic has a very thin and perhaps not 100% flat bottom, that's bad. But copper is an incredible good heat conductor, that's good. I don't know if the setup will work well. Be careful, check if the hotplate starts to glow or if you smell the insulation melting.

Without holding the hotplate in my hands I am not 100% sure, how to fix it. On the "Overview" picture 2cm besides the center is a square hole. Here I think is the connection to the heating loop. If I am right connect here the two thick black wires from the plug. And remove all other wires but the green wire.
Or if you find out how the on-off-switch works, connect one thick wire from the plug to the square, the other from the plug to the switch and one from the switch to the square. Then you can switch it on and off with the knob.
The problem is, I don't understand the two thin black wires. Is it for the on-off-switch or for a little lamp over the knob?

The thin ones are the little light over the knob

[der wo]

And the light stops glowing when the hotplate cycles off?

[der wo]

Or if you find out how the on-off-switch works, connect one thick wire from the plug to the square, the other from the plug to the switch and one from the switch to the square. Then you can switch it on and off with the knob.

Ok, because now I know, those two thin wires are the light, they are not the on-off-switch. So the on-off-switch is a part of the thermostat-mechanism and you will not be able to use this function anymore, if you have thrown out the cycling function. So either install a new switch or be happy without.

[thesource674]

Ok so if I have this right I can just unattach the Xd out wires and move the lead to where the arrow goes and I should be good?

PS - sorry i dont know why the attachment rotates when you click to view it

[der wo]

Yes. But you can remain the two thin wires because it is the light. Take out the short thick wire and move one cable like you have drawed.

[thesource674]

Awwwesssssssssome easier than I thought. Ill let you all know how it turns out tomorrow!

[thesource674]

It works perfectly and while the controller seems to cap out at max heat well before I go all the way up i definately have control and can do a slower temp increase and get a steady boil. It still doesn't come out in a steady stream but rather a steady drip but I now think that that may just be due to the small size and the shape of the swan neck. In addition it only sputters now when its mainly water which I shouldnt be going that far in the tails anyway.

Did my first stripping run of cider and it smells and tastes amazing! Now on to other forum sections for how to maintain all that strong apple notes in the heads while cutting the awful awful acetone and burn.

Thanks for the help all! Cheers!

[der wo]

I feel relieved.
When I entered this thread, I hoped another member would confirm we if I am right or contradict me if I am wrong. But noone answered. I was a bit nervous...

[rad14701]

That modification should work just fine without shortening the life of the heating coil itself... The thermal cutoff switches that are in some hotplates are there more to save someones counter-top or other surface from potentially damaging heat radiating downwards... If the hotplate is on a safe surface the thermal cutoff, if installed, shouldn't be required...

[skow69]

It works perfectly and while the controller seems to cap out at max heat well before I go all the way up i definately have control and can do a slower temp increase and get a steady boil. It still doesn't come out in a steady stream but rather a steady drip but I now think that that may just be due to the small size and the shape of the swan neck.

Congratulations! Now the fun starts.

Actually, getting a drip instead of a stream doesn't have anything to do with size or shape, it's all about the power input. Making that drip smooth and regular is the sign of your success here. If you want a stream you just have to feed it more heat, that's all. Or insulate it to make better use of the heat you have. Eventually you will probably want more. But now looks like the time to make some product and enjoy the fruits of your labor. You will feel it when the upgrade bug bites.

Enjoy.

[NZChris]

I feel relieved.
When I entered this thread, I hoped another member would confirm we if I am right or contradict me if I am wrong. But noone answered. I was a bit nervous...

I was nervous about advising someone who clearly didn't have a clue, to do something so obvious that they should have been able to work it out for themselves. We are talking about mains voltage here.

[thesource674]

It works perfectly and while the controller seems to cap out at max heat well before I go all the way up i definately have control and can do a slower temp increase and get a steady boil. It still doesn't come out in a steady stream but rather a steady drip but I now think that that may just be due to the small size and the shape of the swan neck.

Congratulations! Now the fun starts.

Actually, getting a drip instead of a stream doesn't have anything to do with size or shape, it's all about the power input. Making that drip smooth and regular is the sign of your success here. If you want a stream you just have to feed it more heat, that's all. Or insulate it to make better use of the heat you have. Eventually you will probably want more. But now looks like the time to make some product and enjoy the fruits of your labor. You will feel it when the upgrade bug bites.

Enjoy.

Hmmmm interesting. Maybe i can find a way to insulate the sides of the pot. The bottom is just about 3/4 an inch on all sides smaller than the hot plate surface but it maintains a solid boil at full blast. Maybe its the upper part of the boiler I should insulate to keep the vapor a higher temp? When i ran the 12% ABV cider through it most of the hearts were coming around 86-92 C if the thermometer that plugs into the dome is accurate. Proof was about ~130 in the heads, ~160-165 in the bulk of it, then I started the tails when the flavor started tasted a little watered out down to about 20 proof.

[mulligan]

I'm missing the point here. You could have bought a new hotplate or internal element for $20 that'd stay on constant boil at max and a SCR controller for $3 or so?

[mulligan]

I feel relieved.
When I entered this thread, I hoped another member would confirm we if I am right or contradict me if I am wrong. But noone answered. I was a bit nervous...

I was nervous about advising someone who clearly didn't have a clue, to do something so obvious that they should have been able to work it out for themselves. We are talking about mains voltage here.

Idiots and under-educated (I include myself) are going to do it anyway. Is it better to try and help people and encourage them to do more research (with emphasis on safety) or take this forum's particular known angle of berate them and let them learn the hard way while doing stupid unsafe stuff with no guidance?

[still_stirrin]

I feel relieved.
When I entered this thread, I hoped another member would confirm we if I am right or contradict me if I am wrong. But noone answered. I was a bit nervous...

I was nervous about advising someone who clearly didn't have a clue, to do something so obvious that they should have been able to work it out for themselves. We are talking about mains voltage here.

Idiots and under-educated (I include myself) are going to do it anyway. Is it better to try and help people and encourage them to do more research (with emphasis on safety) or take this forum's particular known angle of berate them and let them learn the hard way while doing stupid unsafe stuff with no guidance?

It kinda comes down to "moral liability".

I could tell you exactly "what" to do and "how to" do it. But, I cannot guarantee you will do it like I said. And when you're injured, or your house burns down, then I feel bad, especially when other novices will use this thread as "gospel" and follow suit.

The internet is a huge crevasse...where things get lost between "here" and "there".
ss

[skow69]

Hmmmm interesting. Maybe i can find a way to insulate the sides of the pot. The bottom is just about 3/4 an inch on all sides smaller than the hot plate surface but it maintains a solid boil at full blast. Maybe its the upper part of the boiler I should insulate to keep the vapor a higher temp? When i ran the 12% ABV cider through it most of the hearts were coming around 86-92 C if the thermometer that plugs into the dome is accurate. Proof was about ~130 in the heads, ~160-165 in the bulk of it, then I started the tails when the flavor started tasted a little watered out down to about 20 proof.

This brings us back to the often repeated point that you can't take the reading of a thermometer in a pot still as literal. We know that H2O at 86-92 C can't be vapor. It has to be liquid. A mixture of water and ethanol could be vapor, but the composition of that mixture is constantly changing, so it quickly becomes very complicated. All we can really be certain of is that some of the heat from your hotplate is being used to heat the charge and some is being lost to the environment. If you can change that ratio so that less is being lost, then your boil will be "faster" or "more vigorous", more vapor will be created, and consequently you will get more product coming out. So anything you can do with insulation to direct more heat into the pot will make your distillation more efficient, regardless of what your thermometer reads. This is why they say you can't run a pot still by temperature, you have to run it by input heat and output flow.

It is unfortunate that your boiler doesn't cover that heating surface completely because that is your main source of wasted heat and it is hard to recover. Anything you can do to redirect that into the pot will help, as well as insulation on the sides and top. I just don't find it helpful to use the temperature as an indicator of efficiency, it is better to use the flow rate, i.e. measure your takeoff in ml per minute or ounces per hour, etc.

[skow69]

I'm missing the point here. You could have bought a new hotplate or internal element for $20 that'd stay on constant boil at max and a SCR controller for $3 or so?

Those would be valid solutions, but I am not aware of a $20 hotplate that doesn't cycle or a $3 controller.

[skow69]

I feel relieved.
When I entered this thread, I hoped another member would confirm we if I am right or contradict me if I am wrong. But noone answered. I was a bit nervous...

I was nervous about advising someone who clearly didn't have a clue, to do something so obvious that they should have been able to work it out for themselves. We are talking about mains voltage here.

Sorry, der wo, I was out of town.

This is why I tried to keep my advice as simple as possible (take these two wires and connect them together). The more complicated it becomes, the easier it is to get in trouble. In general, however, I think it's better to try to help than to let someone experiment with no guidance.