Mason Jar Lids... Can I put them on UPSIDE-DOWN?

[joeymac]

So hi proof alcohol and most plastics don't mix with few exceptions and everyone here should know this and observe it. Personally, I'm fine with Teflon/PTFE seals in the vapor path and I'm also OK with food safe HDPE seals/lids for sealing room temperature spirit at moderate strengths (<80%) and I use natural cork for just about everything whenever I can.

This leaves me in some very gray area for Mason Jars. Their VERY useful for collecting drop with graduation marks and everything. They're pretty cheap for me, about $1 each for the quart jars. But those damn lids have that chemically red rubber in them. I wouldn't even want to store "low" 60-80 proof drinks in them. You can practically smell the plasticizers if you've ever popped open a new mason jar and take a big whiff? I've seen stainless steel foil mentioned as a solution along with PTFE disks you can buy in other threads. But if I want to do long term aging in my jars, these lid liners are going to add up in price quickly and I'm right back $6 gallon jugs and $30 carboys.

Then I got to thinking, can I just flip the lid over and just use the metal side of the lid to close the jar? It seems to do a pretty good job and I see no reason why it wouldn't work at least while doing some short aging on some oak sticks or Jack Daniels chips. Beats having to use a liner. But I'm worried there might be some sort of lacquer on the metal to keep the shiney new look.

[rgreen2002]

joeymac

Interesting....

I don't think the lid tops have any lacquer. They do have printing in many instances, but I think that could be scrubbed off. Would you get a real airtight seal though? Hate to lose all that product!!

My PTFE discs were $0.78 so I felt that this was a good solution, but I do get your point.

[cob]

they are coated outside, what they are coated with remains temporarily a mystery.

rub one with acetone or laquer thinner and see what comes off.

[joeymac]

I know really old lids rust eventually... so they're not stainless. And when they do rust it looks like some sort of coating. I think I'll pass on the new idea and just get a few dozen PTFE seals.

[rgreen2002]

they are coated outside, what they are coated with remains temporarily a mystery.

...I stand corrected!

[aircarbonarc]

Where would I buy PTFE discs? Also I saw on a documentary about whisky they had a weird jar type contraption with a toasted oak disk for a lid. What a great idea. I think there's a market here for these.

[joeymac]

Some guy on ETSY is selling white oak disk lids for mason jars... but they're only like 1/16"-1/8" thick.
I would image that's WAY to thin to allow aging for any decent length of time as the angels would drink you dry.

[cob]

well three days later ball-kerr calls back and says the coating on the outside of their lids is

proprietary, and they aren't at liberty to disclose the outside coating.

that's interesting because previously when I started the mason jar lids

thread, when I ask what the seal was made of they told me it was plastisol without hesitation.

bottom line is the lids are coated on the outside, but it's none of our business with what.

[RedwoodHillBilly]

Just for the hell of it, I tried every organic solvent in my inventory. VM&P naptha, acetone, xylene, denatured alcohol, tetrachloroethylene. Nothing touched the top coating or the printing. Putting the lid on inverted and tightening the ring gave me a seal that didn't leak. So, for my use, I wouldn't be afraid to do this. But, YMMV and you have to make your own decision.

edit: I still need to try 85% phosphoric acid (ph of ~0.5) and a strong NaOh solution, I can get to a ph of ~14 if I try. Will report later.

[joeymac]

Just for the hell of it, I tried every organic solvent in my inventory. VM&P naptha, acetone, xylene, denatured alcohol, tetrachloroethylene. Nothing touched the top coating or the printing. Putting the lid on inverted and tightening the ring gave me a seal that didn't leak. So, for my use, I wouldn't be afraid to do this. But, YMMV and you have to make your own decision.

edit: I still need to try 85% phosphoric acid (ph of ~0.5) and a strong NaOh solution, I can get to a ph of ~14 if I try. Will report later.

I think it might some sort of tinning or passivation treatment to the actual metal. Acid will probably do it in. Also, what about the writing on the lid? perhaps it's etched or laser printed?

You've got me curious... I'm taking some into work tomorrow and hitting it with MEK.

[RedwoodHillBilly]

I think it might some sort of tinning or passivation treatment to the actual metal. Acid will probably do it in. Also, what about the writing on the lid? perhaps it's etched or laser printed?

You've got me curious... I'm taking some into work tomorrow and hitting it with MEK.

OK, I just tried 85% phosphoric acid and 1:1 Naoh / H2O w/w and neither touched the coating or the printing. Maybe HF will attack it, but it would attack the glass also (besides, I've worked with HF and it scares the shit out of me). So, unless you can find something that can attack the coating or the printing, that would be in our spirits, I think that this is a reasonable method. Thoughts?

[WIski]

I use loose fitting wax paper cinched on the neck of my storage jugs. Lets it breath a bit and keeps the dust bunnys out.

If you need a tight seal these work nice.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23488" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[RedwoodHillBilly]

I use loose fitting wax paper cinched on the neck of my storage jugs. Lets it breath a bit and keeps the dust bunnys out.

If you need a tight seal these work nice.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23488" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Yes, PTFE will work just fine. As I mentioned in another thread, I had problems with azeo and wax paper. Whatever, do what you want, it's just not for me. Not trying to be a dick, just my experience.

If we can prove that just turning the mason jar lids upside down and that this is safe and effective, it sounds like a win to me.

[joeymac]

Whatever the coating is, it's nonmetalic and very thin. Touching my ohmmeter to the surface shows no conductivity but lightly pressing them into the surface (I mean pretty darn light) and I get some decent conductivity. Might be worth testing conductivity to see if you haven't removed the coating without realizing it. It's so thin, you might not notice it missing.

just thinking out loud:
If it is a thin polymer, my guess is PVDF (maybe a kynar/hylar deposition). Chemically, PVDF is a semi-Flourinated carbon polymer (C2H2F2) compared to PTFE/Teflon which is fully flourinated (C2F4). So it's got most of the chemical resistances at lower temperatures but doesn't have the high temp capabilities PTFE does. I don't think anything you mentioned you tested would hurt PVDF at room temperatures. That combined with the electrical insulation but super thin clear layer is what's piquing my PVDF suspicions. It can be deposited in sub-thousandth thick layers, is optically clear, dielectric, and EXCELLENT for corrosion resistance. On top of a silvery polished metal substrate, it'll have a thermal emissivity of around 0.4-0.7 in the thicknesses we're talking (one way to identify it, if you have emissivity instrumentation). About the only common chemicals you might try to test for attacking a PVDF surface if you have access to them are fuming sulfuric acid, anhydrous ammonia, ethanal, MEK and acetone at elevated temperatures.

All that being said and personally having done a decent amount of work with PVDF in the past, if the material is PVDF it is very resistant to alcohols and I'd have no problem using my lids upside-down... I wouldn't think twice.

then again it could be something else...

[RedwoodHillBilly]

OK, I checked it's resistance (after all of the solvent and acid/base tests) and I don't have a system here to read greater than 20 MegOhm. i.e. it's non-conductive. If I scratch it, I can get conductivity. This says to me that it is a thin film of some sort. PVDF or whatever, I don't think that it matters, but if you have a way to test it, that would be a good thing.

That being said, unless we can positively say that that this is a "bad thing" for exposure to potable alcohol, I'm thinking that this is a convenient method to seal our likker.

Thoughts?

[RedwoodHillBilly]

Another thought. Not knowing what the base metal is, we will probably "scratch" through the thin film at the lid/glass interface when tightening the ring. I don't know if this would be a problem. I would assume that the base metal would be of low cost. Do you have a way of testing what it is? I don't have access to quantitative analysis tools right now.

[WIski]

If it isn't stainless or copper it doesn't belong here.

[joeymac]

It's steel. A magnet sticks well and old beat up lids get rusty. That being said, the steel's not a problem if it's coated with something inert and the coating is intact... that's just what we're trying to figure out.

[goose eye]

Was bpa ain't sure if it changed

So I'm tole

[joeymac]

I think the BPA was the white side or the red seal. As of 2013, lids made in USA are BPA free

[goose eye]

Here's what you do take a nail an barely scratch the lid put it on an put it away for 3 months
then look at it.
Many a gallon of likker turned to lookin
like tang cause of lids

So I'm tole

[MichiganCornhusker]

If it isn't stainless or copper it doesn't belong here.

Here's what you do take a nail an barely scratch the lid put it on an put it away for 3 months
then look at it.
Many a gallon of likker turned to lookin
like tang cause of lids

So I'm tole

+1

[rgreen2002]

I use loose fitting wax paper cinched on the neck of my storage jugs. Lets it breath a bit and keeps the dust bunnys out.

If you need a tight seal these work nice.

http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23488" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Yes, PTFE will work just fine. As I mentioned in another thread, I had problems with azeo and wax paper. Whatever, do what you want, it's just not for me. Not trying to be a dick, just my experience.

If we can prove that just turning the mason jar lids upside down and that this is safe and effective, it sounds like a win to me.

+1 and this is where I got all of my liners.

Go Redwood - science the hell out of that thing!!

[sltm1]

I gotta ask, Mason Jars are "Hillbilly Cool", but why use them for storage on fine squeezin's? I go to the local bar and ask them to collect empty liquor bottles for me for a week (I tell them it's for storing my wine) and almost all of them accept #9 corks. I only use natural cork none of the glued together "fiber-board" ones.
Just a thought and a pretty cheap source of storage containers.

[WIski]

I gotta ask, Mason Jars are "Hillbilly Cool", but why use them for storage on fine squeezin's?

The wide mouth makes it easy for adding and removing wood or fruit.

[Pipinchaz]

OK, I checked it's resistance (after all of the solvent and acid/base tests) and I don't have a system here to read greater than 20 MegOhm. i.e. it's non-conductive. If I scratch it, I can get conductivity. This says to me that it is a thin film of some sort. PVDF or whatever, I don't think that it matters, but if you have a way to test it, that would be a good thing.

That being said, unless we can positively say that that this is a "bad thing" for exposure to potable alcohol, I'm thinking that this is a convenient method to seal our likker.

Thoughts?

Redwood hillbilly,
Have you ever tested a lid turned up side down with a scratch on it, just to see what the spirits will do a opening into the surface? Just thinking out loud that if the coating on the surface was damaged, what kind of reaction would occur.
Thank you


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[cob]

well enough of this subtle stuff, last night I folded a tp square 4 times

put it in the center of a kerr lid saturated it with acetone and covered

it with a petri cover, no effect in 18 hours.

so today a destructive test was done to the same lid just wiped off and

held with pliers outside in the breeze with a small butane torch.

slowly add heat to the bottom of the lid. at first a slight change of color

from clear to hazy, with a slight wisp of vapor that stinks, add heat, more

discoloration and more stinky vapor. add more heat in stages until the lid

is burnt with a spot the size of a dime, stinking and smoking the entire time.

observations; the inside burnt, crazed and pealed. the outside discolored and

popped off little grey flakes. what the coating is we don't know, but it is coated.

wishing, guessing, hoping, and thinking will not make that material into PTFE

it's not PTFE so not compliant with rule #8 there fore its not recommended

for the use the op posted.

the stuff stinks worse than pvc when subject to enough heat even outside in the breeze

[joeymac]

Kind of odd "test" since we know it is coated with something or it would conduct and eventually rust. And it would char and burn even if it was teflon (which it's not) since teflon isn't magical or anything and it would also have released not only nasty fumes but also quite toxic fumes. Not sure what a blow torch proves since we already know it's coated with something.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer_fume_fever" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

EDIT: And if it is a PVDF coating as I'm beginning to suspect, the lid would release many of the same dangerous flourinated gasses as teflon when you char it.

[MichiganCornhusker]

I know really old lids rust eventually... so they're not stainless. And when they do rust it looks like some sort of coating. I think I'll pass on the new idea and just get a few dozen PTFE seals.

I keep thinking this thread will just sensibly die out. OP was answered almost immediately and headed off in a good direction.
There is no point in trying to determine whether or not the coated lid of a mason jar is acceptable for contact with spirits by putting it through the home laboratory.

You can torch 'em, beat 'em with a hammer, run over them with your truck, but they still won't be admitted as a safe material for what we do.