PID controller for initial warmup

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Birrofilo
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by Birrofilo »

NZChris wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:11 pm Holding a set temperature in a fast aging reactor is not running a still unattended, which is what you seem to be advocating.
I don't get the reference to the fast aging reactor.
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by NZChris »

Birrofilo wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:14 pm
NZChris wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:11 pm Holding a set temperature in a fast aging reactor is not running a still unattended, which is what you seem to be advocating.
I don't get the reference to the fast aging reactor.
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=55301
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by Birrofilo »

I am not following you again.

That fast aging reactor, if memory serves, is some kind of ultrasonic treatement to have the alcohol molecules smash into each others (as they would do in a natural aging, only more slowly) thus imitating the "smoothing" that aging creates.

Neither myself nor you, in this thread, made any reference to that, so I don't understand at all your statement: "Holding a set temperature in a fast aging reactor is not running a still unattended, which is what you seem to be advocating". Fast aging reactors were never part of this thread and I don't understand what I advocated on that subject. You are the first to mention a fast aging reactor. I am talking about your kettle controlled by your PID.

(The fast aging reactor, if memory serves, doesn't use heat at all. It's all ultrasound. But a different technique uses microwaves to heat the alcohol so that there is a distillation. You cannot do that unattended and it work in bursts of a few seconds, 5 seconds at a time or so).
Last edited by Birrofilo on Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by NZChris »

Try clicking on the link and reading the thread.
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by Birrofilo »

NZChris wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:39 pm Try clicking on the link and reading the thread.
No time, thanks. Try to reformulate your question in such a way that I don't have to read an entire thread to understand it.
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by NZChris »

That thread has nothing to do with what you think it does.
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by Birrofilo »

NZChris wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:44 pm That thread has nothing to do with what you think it does.
But then again, how can I have made a reference to that thread in this thread?
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by NZChris »

Birrofilo wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:54 pm
NZChris wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 9:44 pm That thread has nothing to do with what you think it does.
But then again, how can I have made a reference to that thread in this thread?
Here:
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=76374#p7604004
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by Yummyrum »

Birrofilo wrote: Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:49 pm I don't understand all this rage. I don't see problems in leaving the still unattended when you are in the other room (and check from time to time), or for a few minutes, or even for half an hour if the still is not producing. If you lower the temperature a couple degrees, you can leave it at there for days. Besides, the window must always be left open etc.

If you use a PID, the still will stop producing and you go back to the initial case of "initial warmup", that is you let the broth at a temperature where no alcoholic vapours are produced. Only that temperature level is now higher than before the distillation begun.

The dogmatic attitude in this forum is disappointing. If you "attend" at your still, you can always fall asleep, you can have a sudden problem, you can knock your head at a piece of furniture, you can skid on the floor and break a leg, you can faint, you can die. A PID going step by step will make the still innocuous even if the person attending it is not conscious any more. A PID used with small temperature steps and the operator is safer than the operator alone.

LWTCS You look for dangers where there are not, and I think you have some axe to grind regarding myself, and the sentiment is NOT reciprocated, because I believe in free exchange of opinions without some people patronising other users. You don't seem to be the person with whom it would be pleasant to drink a beer discussing matters. You talk with a hammer in your hand. I suggest you adopt a more friendly way of expressing your opinion, and frankly also a more friendly avatar, because you don't seem to be the person who is not afraid of exchanging opinion, or accepting dissent and contradiction. You should learn that people think in different ways and that there is no need to try to scare other forum participants with menacing avatars. That tells a lot about your way of seeing a forum, and yourself. I also think that you use your moderator "status" to just wage your personal little war against people who differ from you, and to protect yourself, somehow, from contradictions by other users; you seem to be afraid to be contradicted. You are shielding yourself, you have fears that you should work on. And now ban me if that makes you feel better, for life. I have a life outside fora, a life made of friendly exchanges.
I read your post to which LWTCS responded and had exact same feeling towards all the points he highlighted . Larry just happened to respond in a more eloquent way than I would have .

So you see , its no personal attack or axes to grind , it’s just that you mention things that are against the beliefs of this forum .We have been and will always be totally against the suggestion of running stills unattended . It is total stupidity .

LWTCS has been a long time member and arguably one of the most experienced and biggest contributors who has gained a lot of respect from the members here .

I suggest show a bit of respect and drop the attitude .

In saying that , you continue to throw argument to NZChris who is trying to have a respectful discussion with you .
You say you don’t have time to read a link he has offered to dig up for you yet you have time to argue and as it would seem , go back and edit your earlier posts .

I am now starting to think you enjoy stirring shit and trolling .Keep it up and your wish may come true .
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Birrofilo you would do well to think more about the possibility's of what can go wrong when distilling. Have you ever heard the old saying that " If something is going to go wrong it will happen at the worst possible time " ?? Generally known as Murphy's Law, there is another similar called Sods Law.
When things do go wrong the shit hits the fan very quickly......you will wish you were not in the next room if or when it ever happens to you.
The Never Leave A Still Unattended Rule is there for good reason and should be followed at all times.
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

If you want to drag people into yet another endless discussion on the fallacies of PID performance as it applies to distilling, go ahead. A few will still play that game, although it's been debunked in many other threads that took alot of effort to produce, that you can't be bothered to read. There's nothing wrong with discussing views on it. Just be self aware enough to realize that no one is obligated to see it your way, and most topics here go through endless scrutiny to ensure factually applied practices.

What will not be tolerated is any discussion of running a still unattended. It's not even up for a debate. Commercial distilleries have BLOWN up becuase the still handler went to lunch. We don't allow the discussion becuase believe it or not,
we're not just here for your enjoyment. We want to promote the safe practice of distilling to help the process of legal change for the hobby. Every fire that happens in a home from this is another black eye on the hobby. The stories around here, but im not doing your homework for you.

Either way, show some respect for the people that put their time in before you came around. You take for granted the effort that volunteers go through to keep this machine running. With out them, you would have no platform to stomp your foot and show your unearned entitlement to dismiss our safety practices, and the rules you agreed to when you signed up.
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by Acrylic »

Four years of reading this forum and I hate to say, I find a trend leaning to contempt of the dangers of operating a boiler.
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

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Acrylic wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:39 am Four years of reading this forum and I hate to say, I find a trend leaning to contempt of the dangers of operating a boiler.
Meaning?
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by Acrylic »

This thread began with a simple question of "what could go wrong." The question was answered several times, while fielding several more attempts (what I perceived) to soften the hard rule "Never leave the still unattended"

Why is this so difficult to comprehend? Hence, that was the jist of my reply. I witness the mods pound the hard truth over and over and yet, through the cracks I see the fumbling attempts to automate this hobby process.

For the record I hold a boilers ticket, and yes, I'm old, and I have a lifetime behind me in transport and inspections, so yes, I have a high respect of what's happening here. I can see the danger. I can also see just how wonderful and safe this is, if the rules are followed.

What's the worse that can happen? Please follow the rules and please respect and listen to the mods. These people are your friends.

ps - I mean all this in the spirit of safety - I'm not pounding a drum and I certainly do not mean to cause issues. In my trade I have always claimed that I fix issues, I do not create them.
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by LWTCS »

Acrylic wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 7:18 am This thread began with a simple question of "what could go wrong." The question was answered several times, while fielding several more attempts (what I perceived) to soften the hard rule "Never leave the still unattended"

Why is this so difficult to comprehend? Hence, that was the jist of my reply. I witness the mods pound the hard truth over and over and yet, through the cracks I see the fumbling attempts to automate this hobby process.

For the record I hold a boilers ticket, and yes, I'm old, and I have a lifetime behind me in transport and inspections, so yes, I have a high respect of what's happening here. I can see the danger. I can also see just how wonderful and safe this is, if the rules are followed.

What's the worse that can happen? Please follow the rules and please respect and listen to the mods. These people are your friends.

ps - I mean all this in the spirit of safety - I'm not pounding a drum and I certainly do not mean to cause issues. In my trade I have always claimed that I fix issues, I do not create them.
Ah got it.
Your tag btw illustrates your above post most appropriately.
Trample the injured and hurdle the dead.
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by Acrylic »

Saying all that I'm thinking I should re-word my first post and would like to say that personally I've been witnessing not a contempt of boiler operation, but a contempt of the efforts to drill the safety rules regarding boiler operation. My 2 cents for what it's worth.
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by Birrofilo »

Yummyrum wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 12:16 am as it would seem , go back and edit your earlier posts .
When I re-read my post, I saw that there was a "fermentation" instead of a "distillation". It was clear from the contest I meant "distillation", I corrected it because I correct posts.

I also had the initial idea of asking NZChris whether it was the "fermentation" thing he was referring to, but I did not do it because it seems too obvious to me this was just a miswriting.

NZChris might have made a reference to the fermentation if he meant it, instead of telling me that I referred to a thread and then telling me to read it entirely (7 pages) just to figure out what he meant. Actually his affirmation was "Holding a set temperature in a fast aging reactor is not running a still unattended, which is what you seem to be advocating.". He puts something in my mouth which I never said, referring to a thread which I might have never read, while at the same time being obscure about what he means. And when I ask him what he means, he repeats to read the entire thread. I don't read a 7 page thread to understand what he means. He can explain himself, if he wants. I frankly still now don't understand what the hell he meant.

I find the attitude of LMwhatever quite unrespectful in fact, and aimed. And if he is a member here from the stone age, doesn't change the matter. And I do think that his avatar is a clear image of his attitude. You don't introduce yourself in any meeting with your teeth in sight.

And I do repeat and undersign that if you leave a kettle with a PID at under the boiling point, you are perfectly safe. And if you don't agree with that, you can express why you disagree without sending me to a 7-page thread telling me that I made a reference to it. And I do repeat and undersign that a PID + operator is safer than operator only. And if you etc.

I do believe that all the amount of basij attitude in this forum doesn't help the long-run viability of the forum. It's half-way religious sect and half-way Kindergarten.

I insist: Relax. We are not talking making bombs here. Relax regarding safety, relax this kosher obsession.

My economic contribution to this site is admittedly tiny, yet I will not renovate it because I am quite dissatisfied with the "moderation" style.

Nonetheless, I learned a lot from this site (including certainly NZChris, LWwhatever, you, and others) and for this I am grateful to you all and to Uncle Jesse. This site is useful, somehow unique in the world. Don't jeopardize its future with futile dogmas and petty fingerpointing.

EDIT: I also would like to specify that, in an exchange of opinion, there is not a "winner" and a "loser". You just explain clearly and openly what you say, and the other person does the same, and that's it. It's not a contest, it's not a war, there's nothing at stake. Your respectability and your reputation is not tainted because somebody said something different. It seems obvious to me that this concept is not universally shared in this forum.
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by Birrofilo »

Saltbush Bill wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 1:17 am Birrofilo you would do well to think more about the possibility's of what can go wrong when distilling. Have you ever heard the old saying that " If something is going to go wrong it will happen at the worst possible time " ?? Generally known as Murphy's Law, there is another similar called Sods Law.
When things do go wrong the shit hits the fan very quickly......you will wish you were not in the next room if or when it ever happens to you.
The Never Leave A Still Unattended Rule is there for good reason and should be followed at all times.
Saltbush bill, you should extend this advice to NZChris as well, who leaves his kettle with alcoholic liquid 6-days-in-a-row unattended and heated by a PID.
I don't think there is any danger if the temperature is below boiling point. I am sure NZChris agrees.

And if we aim at maximum safety ever, we should all advocate using a PID in addiction to personal presence, because as I have just said, you can have some misfortune while the still goes, and at that point the still would go unattended (or any sort of other layer of safety: for instance, any 15 minutes a timer beeps and if within two minutes you don't reset it, the timer cuts off the power to the boiler).

Distillers are humans and humans are known for falling asleep when they shouldn't. "Being there" is not a great safety feature.
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by Birrofilo »

ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 3:31 am If you want to drag people into yet another endless discussion on the fallacies of PID performance as it applies to distilling, go ahead. A few will still play that game, although it's been debunked in many other threads that took alot of effort to produce, that you can't be bothered to read. There's nothing wrong with discussing views on it. Just be self aware enough to realize that no one is obligated to see it your way, and most topics here go through endless scrutiny to ensure factually applied practices.

What will not be tolerated is any discussion of running a still unattended. It's not even up for a debate. Commercial distilleries have BLOWN up becuase the still handler went to lunch. We don't allow the discussion becuase believe it or not,
we're not just here for your enjoyment. We want to promote the safe practice of distilling to help the process of legal change for the hobby. Every fire that happens in a home from this is another black eye on the hobby. The stories around here, but im not doing your homework for you.

Either way, show some respect for the people that put their time in before you came around. You take for granted the effort that volunteers go through to keep this machine running. With out them, you would have no platform to stomp your foot and show your unearned entitlement to dismiss our safety practices, and the rules you agreed to when you signed up.
And then again, why are you saying this to me and not to NZChris who leaves his kettle unattended for 6 days with a PID?
And could you explain what would be the difference between leaving a still below boiling point before the distillation begun, and leaving the still below the boiling point after the distillation begun?

Seriously, do you have an answer instead of bullying me? You are a perfect example of what is wrong in this site.
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by Corsaire »

That's because NZChris doesn't leave a still unattended, he leaves his aging reactor unattended. At lower temps than distilling temps.

Frankly, this forum requires you to read a lot, and 7 pages isn't all that much. If you do so you may even recognize people's writing styles. Like NZChris's short answers, usually a link to where you'll find the answer ;-)

The reason why people here don't like pid's much is because of a lot of new distillers who think they can set their pid at the theoretical boiling point of ethanol, fail to produce good results and then ask why.

Another reason why you draw flak is you still say it's ok to leave a still unattended. Forum policy, and basic safe thinking, is you should never do this. There's been plenty of near misses already, and in some cases severe accidents. Coolant lines have been known to pop off, column blocking has happened. A bad puke can clog packing or small line arms. Controllers may go haywire and send max power through elements. If you're not willing to spend the time near your still you shouldn't be distilling imo.

LWTCS isn't the only member here with a menacing avatar. There's a lot of skulls floating around for example. It has nothing to do with his personality, I found his contributions very helpful and he's quick to apologize if he needs to.

Relax, don't take offense so easily. But rethink your stance on safety please.
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by NZChris »

Birrofilo wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:43 pmAnd then again, why are you saying this to me and not to NZChris who leaves his kettle unattended for 6 days with a PID?
My Reactors are not running 1000s of Watts. Winter might require a 100W element to get the largest one up to temperature overnight, summer requires less, so smaller elements get used.

BTW, I usually use an STC-1000 for Reacting, don't recommend using a PID and won't be using one for that purpose again. They are too hard on my elements.
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by Birrofilo »

Corsaire wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 10:27 pm That's because NZChris doesn't leave a still unattended, he leaves his aging reactor unattended. At lower temps than distilling temps. But that's my point: below boiling temp, it's not a distiller, it's a warm broth.

Frankly, this forum requires you to read a lot, and 7 pages isn't all that much. If you do so you may even recognize people's writing styles. Like NZChris's short answers, usually a link to where you'll find the answer ;-) OK but if for every conversation I have to read 7 page to understand what my interlocutor says, I don't play anymore.

The reason why people here don't like pid's much is because of a lot of new distillers who think they can set their pid at the theoretical boiling point of ethanol, fail to produce good results and then ask why. Yes but is not a PID thing, you can do this with a thermostat. And I don't advocate leaving a still unattended, but I am advocating leaving a still at below boiling point unattended. What other people do or advocate should not "draw flak" against my plane..

Another reason why you draw flak is you still say it's ok to leave a still unattended. Forum policy, and basic safe thinking, is you should never do this. There's been plenty of near misses already, and in some cases severe accidents. Coolant lines have been known to pop off, column blocking has happened. A bad puke can clog packing or small line arms. Controllers may go haywire and send max power through elements. If you're not willing to spend the time near your still you shouldn't be distilling imo. Again, I see what you mean, and I agree with the general meaning, but I do NOT advocate that. I advocate safety. I say that a PID, in conjuction with a distiller, can be safer. And it is one of the "backup" safety measure that stills should ideally have, such as a pressure release valve, or a pressure gauge, or a timer-controlled switch which cuts off current every let's say half an hour if not manually reset (to check the person is not sleeping).

LWTCS isn't the only member here with a menacing avatar. There's a lot of skulls floating around for example. It has nothing to do with his personality, I found his contributions very helpful and he's quick to apologize if he needs to. Only LWTCS knows why he has an aggressive avatar, and others like him. But what I tell, is that an aggressive avatar is not conducive to good friendly exchanges and doesn't convey an image of friendliness. A forum should be a community of people kept together by the same passion. Why adopting skulls, teeth gnashing, etc? The "face" that I see of another user is his avatar. If his avatar his aggressive, what other impression can I get, if not aggressiveness? That said, everybody has the avatar that he wants, too obvious to say, and I am not telling anybody to change their avatar. But as the French say: "c'est le ton qui fait la musique".

Relax, don't take offense so easily. But rethink your stance on safety please. My safety on stance is so safe that I don't think there is anything to rething, frankly.
I would like to leave all this matter here, and not to reply unless I am called in cause directly, because this thread is becoming boring for all those involved, and I am sure that, in front of a beer, all misunderstanding would soon dissipate.
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by croonic »

NZChris wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 11:15 pm
Birrofilo wrote: Wed Apr 29, 2020 9:43 pmAnd then again, why are you saying this to me and not to NZChris who leaves his kettle unattended for 6 days with a PID?
My Reactors are not running 1000s of Watts. Winter might require a 100W element to get the largest one up to temperature overnight, summer requires less, so smaller elements get used.

BTW, I usually use an STC-1000 for Reacting, don't recommend using a PID and won't be using one for that purpose again. They are too hard on my elements.
Im quite interested in this though an stc-1000 contains relays that function quite equally to what you would use with an pid. How is one "hard" on elements? What types of elements are you using and could you elaborate further on this?
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by NZChris »

croonic wrote: Sun Jun 07, 2020 3:54 amIm quite interested in this though an stc-1000 contains relays that function quite equally to what you would use with an pid. How is one "hard" on elements? What types of elements are you using and could you elaborate further on this?
PIDs, simmerstats and thermostats do not function the same way.

The frequency of on/off cycles affects the life expectancy of any element. See http://centennialbulb.org/

I use a variety of elements, depending on the task.
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by croonic »

are there any info on how much a certain dutycycle decreases the life of a relevant element?
Both work with relays, ssr's or normal high power relays (in the stc) and cuts power to the elements based on programming. so they are not that different in function what matters in this case is the length of the duty cycle.
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Re: PID controller for initial warmup

Post by NZChris »

The manufactures would mostly know, but you might have to put in some effort if you want to get that info from them.

If it is for a critical application and it will be a real PITA if it blows during use, it would be sensible to avoid choosing an element that is designed for use in an infrequent switching application and put the wrong type of PID, or a simmerstat on it. If you really want to use a PID to control a dodgy element, get one with Triac output.
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