Trying to find some information on directly adding enzymes

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Trying to find some information on directly adding enzymes

Postby ToatyMcSpud » Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:57 pm

Hi everyone who is smarter than me...

I'm having some trouble with pure grain mashes. All I can find around here is two row barley. That hasn't had enough of a reaction with my corn likker or rye whiskey to convert the starches to sugars. So I know that Amylase enzyme and diastatic enzymes are needed for that conversion to happen. I also know that two row barley doesn't have enough concentration of those enzymes for the conversion to be successful.
So I pose this question, what amount of those enzymes I have to add to a five gallon wash to convert the starch in my corn likker to sugar?

Anyone have a chart or calculator to hel me figure this out?

Thanks in advance.
Toasty
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Re: Trying to find some information on directly adding enzym

Postby StillerBoy » Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:08 pm

You could start with these..

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=56291

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31141

http://www.enzymash.com/

You could check out in the True and Tried for Booner's corn.. there's a section in the post on liquid enzymes..

There's more.. just use the HD Google Search at the top in the blue section..

Mars
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Re: Trying to find some information on directly adding enzym

Postby BayouShine » Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:50 pm

Toaty,

Malted barley is loaded with enzymes and has one of the highest DPs out there. It should have plenty enough enzymes to convert starch to sugar. Please post the recipe you're using so we can take a look and see if maybe an adjustment to the amount of malt is all you really need.
Last edited by BayouShine on Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trying to find some information on directly adding enzym

Postby ToatyMcSpud » Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:40 pm

Hello BayouShine

The recipe I'm using, is a simple follows

8.5lb Cracked corn (feed grade)
2.2lbs crystal malt
30g of fleischmans traditional yeast
5 gallons of water
Negligible OG
then I tried
8.5lbs of flaked maize bought from a brew supplier (not feed grade)
2.2lbs of light crystal malt
30g fleischmans traditional yeast
Negligible OG
8.5lbs of flaked maize
2.2lbs light crystal malted barley
5 gallons water
1 pkg of turbo yeast
Negligible OG
I repeated the last recipe only added in 8lbs of sugar, and had an adequate wash come out OG of 1.90.
Now I know this I need due to the added refined sugar feeding the yeast and not the conversion of starch to sugar from the malted barley. So I did some research on two-row and six-row malt and found the six-row was preferred by craft distillers due to the high levels of alpha-amylase and diastatic power. Looking around, I found some fermenters enzymes online but I don't know how much to add to a corn likker recipe using five gallons of water. Also really want to know if there is a different substitute for six row malted barley?
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Re: Trying to find some information on directly adding enzym

Postby ToatyMcSpud » Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:02 pm

StillerBoy wrote:You could start with these..

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=56291

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31141

http://www.enzymash.com/

You could check out in the True and Tried for Booner's corn.. there's a section in the post on liquid enzymes..

There's more.. just use the HD Google Search at the top in the blue section..

Mars



That enzymash.com site had what I was looking for.
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Re: Trying to find some information on directly adding enzym

Postby BayouShine » Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:06 pm

It's the crystal malt. The roasting process denatures your enzymes and has 0 DP. Try a regular, unmodified 2-row or 6-row and you'll see better results.

Take a look in the tried and true recipe section for NcHooch's Carolina Bourbon. It's a similar grain bill and lines out a good procedure for you to have some success.
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Re: Trying to find some information on directly adding enzym

Postby HDNB » Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:55 pm

Bayoushine is right on the money.

when you get the unmodified two row i'd up the malt to 3 lbs, that would be just barely enough to convert 11.5lbs of grain. Plus it will taste better.

if you do use enzymes, the dose is .35mL perpound of grain, so about 4mL or a teaspoon full will do 11lbs.

the temperatures for cooking and adding malt/enzymes are critical to the (either) procedure, so make sure you have a good thermometer and a handy cheat sheet with times and temperatures to hit.
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
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Re: Trying to find some information on directly adding enzym

Postby ToatyMcSpud » Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:40 pm

Bayoushine
Everyone points me in the direction of trur and tried recipes. I have punched that into the search link up top but I don't get any results. Is it because I'm.l new member?
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Re: Trying to find some information on directly adding enzym

Postby BayouShine » Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:42 pm

Go to the main board index and scroll down to the mashes, washes, fermenting, aging subforum and look for tried and true recipes.

Edit: This will help with your searches. Use the HD Google search. Make sure to leave a space between the url and your search term

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=10331
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Re: Trying to find some information on directly adding enzym

Postby corene1 » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:40 pm

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Re: Trying to find some information on directly adding enzym

Postby StillerBoy » Mon Feb 20, 2017 8:06 am

You don't say if you mill the corn, or use it just as is from the bag.. but if you milled it, a better conversion is achieved, plus having to use less for the same results.. I now mill all my grains and use the liquid enzymes..

And corn need at least 1.5 hour of high temp (180 - 190 F) to help break down the starch.. and the liquid SEBstar enzymes are much better than the power enzymes, not as temp sensitive..

Mars
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Re: Trying to find some information on directly adding enzym

Postby StillerBoy » Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:45 am

You might be interested in this post by MC on enzymes, that's if you haven't read already.. some very good info in that thread..
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=63464
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Re: Trying to find some information on directly adding enzym

Postby ToatyMcSpud » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:39 pm

Stillerboy
I use ready flaked maise from the local u-brew. So its much finer than cracked feed corn.

Update!

Just this past Tuesday my enzymes were shipped in. Last night I started a mash that I have crowned "Stout Whiskey"! My grain bill was
4lbs of flaked corn
2lbs of each ground malted rye, and roasted barley.
5.5 gallons of water.

I added my corn, rye and barley to the cold water and heated up to 190F, stirring constantly. I then added the SEBstar HTL and let the Mixture rest for 90min
When the heat dropped to 150F, I then stirred in the glucoamylase and let it cool to 80F. It took about an hour and half to drop to 80F so I strained the solids out and took a OG reading. 1.050. I know that its pretty low for a proper whiskey mash and realized my fatal mistake concerning the temperatures and time that corn, rye and barley cook at. But just the same I didn't want to waste the mash in case it actually turned out.
I took the risk and pitched a packet of turbo yeast and let it start fermenting.

The color of the wash was very dark like a Guinness stout because Guinness uses roasted barley in their wort as well. Has anyone here ever used roasted barley in their mash? Anyway...
The aroma was a rich toasted grain flavor and I'm excited to see what the end product turns out like.

If I decide that I want a stronger wash I think I would replace a pound of rye and barley with extra corn and take into account the proper mashing temps and time spent for each grain.

Feed back is always appreciated.
Last edited by ToatyMcSpud on Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trying to find some information on directly adding enzym

Postby StillerBoy » Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:52 pm

ToatyMcSpud wrote: I used 4lbs of flaked corn, and 2lbs of each ground rye, and roasted barley.

For what amount of water ? ? :?:

ToatyMcSpud wrote:. The OG was only 1.050 but it's enough to generate a 5% abv wash at the end of fermentation.

The OG isn't all that bad, and it should generate a little more than what you quoted.. but without the total volume of water and the method used to read the OG, there is no way for us of knowing if the conversion was good or so so..

Mars
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Re: Trying to find some information on directly adding enzym

Postby ToatyMcSpud » Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:04 pm

Stillerboy, Sorry about the lacking details, I re edited the message and reposted it including a detailed grain bill and procedures including a big mistake I made. Not cooking the grains for long enough for each respective grain.
Also, I measured my OG using a vintners hydrometer and a test tube with a sample of the wash in it.
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Re: Trying to find some information on directly adding enzym

Postby bilgriss » Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:37 am

Check this out too. Der Wo has some interesting info on usage of all specialty malts.

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=61934&start=0


I can't help but think also, having read through this thread, that you might benefit from rereading some of the beginner info, stickies in the Grains section, and then reading through a couple of tried and true recipes to get your protocol and sense of balance regarding the recipe. There's a little bit of a Hail Mary feel to the recipe evolution and you might find greater success with a little more preparation.

Having said that, I'm glad you're having fun, and you're probably going to end up with some interesting results.
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Re: Trying to find some information on directly adding enzym

Postby StillerBoy » Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:44 am

ToatyMcSpud wrote:But just the same I didn't want to waste the mash in case it actually turned out.
I took the risk and pitched a packet of turbo yeast and let it start fermenting.

There is nothing to be sorry about, we want to help, so need as much info as required..

Your conversion or 1.05 was good for about 1.5 lbs of grains used.. the protocol for grains is about 2 lbs per gal of water with grains that have been milled.. let it ferment out and see was you get, and as you said adjust the grain to taste.. :thumbup:

On the turbo yeast, you would have done much better using baker's yeast.. turbo will leave the low wine with a strong mouth bite/burn.. just something to work at.. lots of little things to work at when starting in the hobby, that's why note making is an important part of the hobby and seldom talk about ..

Mars
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Re: Trying to find some information on directly adding enzym

Postby ToatyMcSpud » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:11 am

Mars

Thanks for the input, I have devloped the habit of using turbo yeast from my beginning days making sugar washes. I have used bakers yeast before and have had some success with it. Given the number of mistakes ive made with this particular wash, in my future washes I will try pitching with traditional yeast, and remedying the mistakes I made.

Thanks for the input, it was definitely helpful.

I'm glad I was able to finally make an all grain mash.
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Re: Trying to find some information on directly adding enzym

Postby ToatyMcSpud » Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:45 am

Bilgriss

I will be doing some more reading in the beginner section, for sure. I will be honest with you, the above recipe was quite ill prepared for. I was so excited in trying out the new enzymes that I disregarded a number of rules in my own mashing protocol. That being said, I will slow myself down and be a little more thourough in my procedures.

Thanks for the reality check. :wink:
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Re: Trying to find some information on directly adding enzym

Postby StillerBoy » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:44 pm

ToatyMcSpud wrote:Thanks for the reality check.


That what where we can be the most helpful.. :thumbup:

Mars
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Re: Trying to find some information on directly adding enzym

Postby bilgriss » Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:53 am

What's reality?
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