RYE Without Malt Or Acid

All about grains. Malting, smoking, grinding and other preparations.
Which grains are hot, which are not.

Moderator: Site Moderator

User avatar
Tater
Admin
Posts: 9678
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:19 am
Location: occupied south

RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by Tater »

Found this a while back may explain how George Washington got by with such small malt amount in grain bill. Description

This section is from the book "Alcohol, Its Production, Properties, Chemistry, And Industrial Applications", by Charles Simmonds. Also available from Amazon: Alcohol: Its Production, Properties, Chemistry, And Industrial Applications.
Sacchariflcation Without Malt Or Acid

In certain small Continental distilleries spirit is made entirely from raw rye. No malt or acid is used: the starch is saccharified by the diastase present in the raw grain.

Thirty kilos, of rye grist are added all at once to 54 litres of water at 64°. The mash in covered up and steeped for half an hour, by which time the temperature falls to 44°. Boiling water (60 litres) is then added, in order to raise the temperature again to 65-66°. After the mash has stood for a further two hours, cold water is stirred in until the temperature falls to 31°. At this stage pressed yeast (3/4 lb.), worked up with water, is added, the mash cooled by a coil to 19°, and passed to the fermenting-vat. The fermentation is started at 16°, and goes on for five days.

Investigating the yields given by this process with rye and other materials - wheat, barley, oats, maize, buckwheat, rice, millet, potatoes, and artichokes - Windisch and Jetter found that rye was the only grain that contained sufficient diastase to yield as much alcohol without malt as with malt.2 Wheat contains a good proportion of diastase, but not enough to give the full yield of alcohol unless some malt is added. Buckwheat approximates to wheat; barley and oats give lower results. Maize contains only a little diastase, and the raw starch is much less readily saccharified by malt than the steamed material; rice and millet are similar to maize. Potatoes contain only traces of diastase, and the raw starch is only partially saccharified by malt. With artichokes, the whole of the inulin is saccharified, whether malt is used or not, and whether the material is steamed or not.

1 Bull. Assoc. Chim. Sucr., 1917, 35, 237; J. Soc. Chem. Ind. (Abst.), 1917, 36, 1284. 2 Zeitsch. Spiritusind., 1907, 30. 641, 552.

"Brewing extract." - This is a term commonly used by distillers in this country to denote the weight, expressed in lb., of the dissolved material present in the wort. It may be calculated from the specific gravity of the wort thus: -

Let the sp. gr. be, for example, 1047 (water = 1000; it is always taken thus in practice).


Weight of a gallon of water


=


10 1b.


...


" " " wort


=


10 x


1.047 lb.,


=


1047 lb.

dissolved extractive matter = weight of wort minus weight of water = 10 47 - 10 = 047 lb.

This is the brewing extract per gallon of wort.

Hence to find the brewing extract for any given quantity of wort, multiply the number of gallons of wort by the expression sp. gr. of wort - 1000 100

Example: - Given 7000 gallons of wort, sp. gr. 1045. The brewing extract is 7000 X 45/400 = 3150 lb. If this has been produced from 300 bushels of malt, the brewing extract per bushel is 3150 % 300 - -105 lb. per bushel. This would be a fair average yield from unscreened malt. From screened malt, the average yield would be higher - about 11 lb. extract per bushel.



Continue to:

* prev: Sacchariflcation Of Grain Mashes With A Small Proportion Of Malt
* Table of Contents
* next: Changes During Saccharification

Tags

alcohol, beverages, drinks, alcoholometry, fusel oil, methyl, butyl, potable spirits, ethyl alcohols, industrial alcohol, methyl alcohol, production of alcohol, physical properties, physiological effects of alcohol, properties, spirituous beverages http://chestofbooks.com/food/beverages/ ... -Acid.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I use a pot still.Sometimes with a thumper
blind drunk
retired
Posts: 4848
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:59 am

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by blind drunk »

Hey Tater, I tried a version of that, converting raw cracked rye grain without any aids. Just the rye. I know from baking that rye has the highest diastatic power of all the grains. However, if you can find a wheat or what have you that has over sprouted in the field because of damp conditions at the time of harvest, I bet that could work too.
If they sell that over sprouted wheat etc to a baker, we revolt, cause you can't bake with it :wink: Cheers, bd.


http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... hilit=+rye
I do all my own stunts
King Of Hearts
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1503
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:09 pm

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by King Of Hearts »

Well this explains the 4 Roses recipes then. They only use 5% malted barley. http://www.fourroses.us/ten" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow I was thinking of getting some unmalted rye next time to try. Does it also give a lighter flavor? The malt house should have the data on it.
blind drunk
retired
Posts: 4848
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:59 am

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by blind drunk »

Pumpernickel rye has the nice consistency of a meal. A bit finer than a crack. bd.
I do all my own stunts
King Of Hearts
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1503
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:09 pm

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by King Of Hearts »

Here is some data on Canadian Distiller’s Malt. The DP is outrageous.

Distiller’s Malt Moisture % Max. Diasatic Power (ASBC) Min. Malt Protein % Max.
Distiller’s Malt 7.0 220 13.5
Typical Malt Analysis
blind drunk
retired
Posts: 4848
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:59 am

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by blind drunk »

What does all that mean Burbank? bd.
I do all my own stunts
King Of Hearts
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1503
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:09 pm

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by King Of Hearts »

Didn't show like I typed. The diastatic power of distillers malt is 220. A six row malt. That is why they can use so little in a recipe to convert corn. They may use a little bit of enymes if they need to.
still crazy
Rumrunner
Posts: 706
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:11 am

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by still crazy »

Got a guy gave me a 100# sack of rye berries (whole grain rye)
Sounds like Tater gave me the idea what to do with it.
The pot still will like this I think.
Daddy used, to say " Any landing you can walk away from is a good one"
Calculations don't mean shit when compared to the real world practical experience of many...RAD 9/2010
King Of Hearts
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1503
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:09 pm

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by King Of Hearts »

I dunno, I think they still use enzymes. Maybe GW malted.

http://www.canadianwhisky.org/news-view ... iskey.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

So what’s the secret to making great rye whisky? They may not tell you this, but most whisky makers know it’s all in the enzymes. Still, most rye distillers in North America—and around the world for that matter—use commercially produced enzymes to break the rye starches down into sugars that the yeast can eventually turn into alcohol. Commercially produced enzymes are made by culturing Rhizopus or Aspergillus fungi which have been specifically selected to produce high levels of very effective alpha- and gluco-amylase. In fact, these fungi have been so skillfully bred that they produce enzymes that are virtually “programmed” to convert corn starches into sugars. After all, corn is less expensive than rye which is why it is the primary grain used to make most North American whiskies. These corn-specific enzymes don’t do such a great job on rye though, which is one of the reasons distilling rye is such a pain in the neck.

Most whisky makers just accept the inefficiencies and all the extra cleanings that go along with using corn-specific enzymes for rye. But in Canada, there are two distillers who have found a way around the problems of sticky rye mashes and gummed-up equipment. Hiram Walker distillery in Windsor, Ontario, has solved the problem by using malted rye. The perfect rye-converting enzymes, of course, are made by the rye grain itself as it starts to germinate. The other, Alberta Distillers, which uses 100% unmalted rye, has developed its own proprietary strain of Aspergillus fungi that specifically converts rye starches into sugars. (Incidentally, for those who are thinking “yuck”, yeast is also a fungus.)

So there ya go.
King Of Hearts
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1503
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:09 pm

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by King Of Hearts »

still crazy wrote:Got a guy gave me a 100# sack of rye berries (whole grain rye)
Sounds like Tater gave me the idea what to do with it.
The pot still will like this I think.
You will have to malt it or use amylase and amyloglucsidase.
still crazy
Rumrunner
Posts: 706
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:11 am

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by still crazy »

I think the opening post pointed out no need to malt.
Plus the reason I got the rye was after talking to a rep from four roses about there high rye grain mashes.
Daddy used, to say " Any landing you can walk away from is a good one"
Calculations don't mean shit when compared to the real world practical experience of many...RAD 9/2010
Dnderhead
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 13666
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by Dnderhead »

I thank Tater answered this,, all grain has some enzymes with out malting, these are activated when they become damp,
this starts the proses of sprouting.then the more the grain sprouts the more enzymes it produces. apparently rye has enough
"starting enzymes" to convert its whole self.there is also a big difference between distillers malt and brewers malt.
distillers malt their interested more in enzymes to convert other grain, whereas brewers malt it is a compromise between
enzymes and starches.so you cant make beer out of distillers malt (the starch is almost gone)and it will take a good bit more brewers malt to convert other grain.
blind drunk
retired
Posts: 4848
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:59 am

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by blind drunk »

Falling number and what they mean regarding diastatic activity-

http://www.wheatflourbook.org/Main.aspx?p=67" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I do all my own stunts
King Of Hearts
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1503
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:09 pm

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by King Of Hearts »

Dnderhead wrote:I thank Tater answered this,, all grain has some enzymes with out malting, these are activated when they become damp,
this starts the proses of sprouting.then the more the grain sprouts the more enzymes it produces. apparently rye has enough
"starting enzymes" to convert its whole self.there is also a big difference between distillers malt and brewers malt.
distillers malt their interested more in enzymes to convert other grain, whereas brewers malt it is a compromise between
enzymes and starches.so you cant make beer out of distillers malt (the starch is almost gone)and it will take a good bit more brewers malt to convert other grain.
Still, most rye distillers in North America—and around the world for that matter—use commercially produced enzymes to break the rye starches down into sugars that the yeast can eventually turn into alcohol.

Apparently there isn't enough in raw rye. Why then did the distillers develop a new fungi to convert raw rye, and some just use rye malt?
Dnderhead
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 13666
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by Dnderhead »

I would thank the enzymes in raw rye would be marginal.so by adding more enzymes or malting would speed converting
and ensure the proses.
loneswinger
Swill Maker
Posts: 413
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:25 pm

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by loneswinger »

So it sounds like Still Crazy has volunteered to do the trial 'no added enzyme' conversion on his Rye berries. Personally, I am extremely skeptical. I would like to see the results of Windisch and Jetter reproduced before I believe them. Even the temperature cycling during the conversion sounds a bit peculiar.

-Loneswinger
It's better to learn from other people's mistakes than your own.
King Of Hearts
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1503
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:09 pm

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by King Of Hearts »

When was malting invented, could George have done it?
father william
Swill Maker
Posts: 194
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 5:44 pm

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by father william »

I would encourage anyone working with Rye to read Uncle Jesse's discussion of Rye and lactic souring here:

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5548

scroll down past the Scotch part to get to the Rye part
If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?

Will Rogers
loneswinger
Swill Maker
Posts: 413
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:25 pm

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by loneswinger »

I'm the sucker. I tried converting rye berries without malt or enzymes yesterday, it did not work. Here is what I did.

Put 10 gallons of water in a big pot. Added some acid blend to get to a pH of 4.5, then added some calcium carbonate to bring it back to a pH of 5.8. While that water was heating on the burner I cracked 25 lbs. of Rye berries that I got from the coop. Once the water was about 73 C, I stirred in the cracked Rye. Once nice and mixed the temp was 67 C. I covered the pot and went and watched football for about 1.5 hours. When I returned the temp had dropped to 63 C. The pH was 5.0 which seemed good. Most of the grain was in the bottom third of the pot and had a dense like sludge consistency. I scraped some liquid off of the top, cooled it and measured with the hydro. It read 1.013. To me that means little to no conversion. Experiment failed.

I threw in a few pounds of cracked malted barley and turned the heat up a bit, this somehow brought the sludge off of the bottom and turned the whole mess into a uniform pot full of a low viscosity brown slime. It tasted sweet and the iodine test turned out negative for starch, but the viscosity was way too high to be simple sugars. My hypothesis is that the enzymes only partially converted most of the starch. I chilled it with the wort chiller (was not too viscous to mix easily), and measured the gravity. Hard to tell due to the viscosity and the fact that the liquid would not separate from the 'solids', but it was somewhere in the 1.04 to 1.06 range. As there would be no way to sparge this slime, I pitched the yeast and will just let it go. Later I will distill on the grain. I forgot to check it this morning to see if the yeast are happy. I will report back here upon further observations.

-Loneswinger
It's better to learn from other people's mistakes than your own.
King Of Hearts
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1503
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:09 pm

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by King Of Hearts »

The amount of water is right, but I would dilute it more if it's still really thick. I would not distill on the grain. When it's done fermenting I would drain and use gelatin to fine and let it clear in a fridge at 40'F, and rack off the settlement. Distillers use steam heat, a luxury we don't have. You will burn it like I did.
blind drunk
retired
Posts: 4848
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:59 am

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by blind drunk »

Hey loneswinger, when I did it, I left it in my insulated box at about 140f overnight, about 10 hours or so. I got about 4.5% abv without using any malt. I fermented on the grain and the whole thing went into lactic souring on its own. Smelled awful for a bunch of days, then got sweet. I did the same with some cracked wheat last week, only this time I used a little malt powder to prevent scorching and I got around 5% abv. Same process. I think it might be a time thing. bd.
I do all my own stunts
Dnderhead
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 13666
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by Dnderhead »

Not that iv tried this, but just maybe with such a small amount of enzymes it is going to take a long time to convert.
this is one of the points for fermenting on the grain.
loneswinger
Swill Maker
Posts: 413
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:25 pm

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by loneswinger »

I am not a fan of the long conversion time as I fear without a decent sugar level to start it is prone to infection. I've never done the lactic souring. I will probably stick to adding a little malt. I also did a mash with 50 lbs. barley/25 lbs rye. It sparged ok and left me with about 23 gallons at 1.073. I plan to mix the low wines from this ferment with the rye one.

Thanks for the tips guys. I will let you know how it all turns out. I am curious how much alcohol will come out of that mostly rye fermentation.

-Loneswinger
It's better to learn from other people's mistakes than your own.
King Of Hearts
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1503
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:09 pm

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by King Of Hearts »

My beer program says 10%abv if 90% converted, 11%abv if 100% converted. I used rye malt and got 100% conversion.
blind drunk
retired
Posts: 4848
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:59 am

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by blind drunk »

I guess to flesh out the experiment, I would have to do another mash with just malted rye and see what the abv is. According to the study's abstract, they should be the same. I'll try when I get some malted rye.
Windisch and Jetter found that rye was the only grain that contained sufficient diastase to yield as much alcohol without malt as with malt.
bd.
I do all my own stunts
King Of Hearts
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1503
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:09 pm

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by King Of Hearts »

blind drunk wrote:I guess to flesh out the experiment, I would have to do another mash with just malted rye and see what the abv is. According to the study's abstract, they should be the same. I'll try when I get some malted rye.
Windisch and Jetter found that rye was the only grain that contained sufficient diastase to yield as much alcohol without malt as with malt.
bd.
I already did and got 100% conversion. For 25 lbs it would be 11% abv in 10 gals.
blind drunk
retired
Posts: 4848
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:59 am

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by blind drunk »

I already did and got 100% conversion. For 25 lbs it would be 11% abv in 10 gals.
Have you done a comparison with raw grain? I'm thinking if the study is correct, then I'm probably not that good at mashing. Or the study is wrong. bd.
I do all my own stunts
still crazy
Rumrunner
Posts: 706
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:11 am

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by still crazy »

I have read the Washington recipe and all that.

I have my dads recipe and i will share this with you.
This is exactly as I can remember being taught.
We used no thermometers and its all by memory so bear with me.

Boil 12 gallons of water till its at a full roll < we did this in a steel 55 gallon drum (no safety BS here " but dad there rust in that barrel")
Turn off heat and when you can stick you hand in to the bottom of the barrel for a 3 count pour in a 50lb sack of rye < whole grain (what I have as berries)
stir it now and again and wait till water hits comfortable temp but still got a tingle to it.
Add In 12 more gallons of boiling water < I think this is what the galvanized trash can he used to boil water in held comfortably
let sit for about 4 beers and two hunting stories , I got root beer (2 hours I figure)
Test it to see if its about hot piss temp
And toss in 1/3 coffee can (1 # can) of yeast.
stir to slosh it up
Test it till it tastes ready to cook (what I have learned is called dry)
Daddy used, to say " Any landing you can walk away from is a good one"
Calculations don't mean shit when compared to the real world practical experience of many...RAD 9/2010
loneswinger
Swill Maker
Posts: 413
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 4:25 pm

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by loneswinger »

Still crazy's post reminded me of this question to ask: (@ both BD and still crazy or anyone using un-malted Rye)

Did you crack the rye berries before mashing? Or just put them in whole? I wonder if intact grains would help prevent the formation of sludge.

I went and checked that mostly Rye ferment, what a mess. It bubbled over during the night and I lost probably 2 gallons of liquid to the garage floor. The floor is not level and is gravel/dirt which made it that much harder to clean up. On the plus side I guess the yeast are happy. :D

-Loneswinger
It's better to learn from other people's mistakes than your own.
blind drunk
retired
Posts: 4848
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:59 am

Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Post by blind drunk »

Mine's cracked, by someone else :D

edited out the non related quotation :econfused:
Last edited by blind drunk on Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I do all my own stunts
Post Reply