RYE Without Malt Or Acid

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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby still crazy » Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:47 pm

my dad used whole kernel and the thing was when we put the yeast in you could take a handfull out and the kernels were swollen fat and soft
use to chew em and see if they were sticky inside don't let em get gummed up in your molars
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby loneswinger » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:16 pm

It looks like the problem I was having with the slime was coming from the beta glucans. Next time I will try a beta glucanase rest which is between 100 F and 120 F. Probably slowly heating the water with the grains in the pot is the way to go.

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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby Barney Fife » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:31 pm

Loneswinger, that's where wrapping up the wash and letting it cool very slowly, overnight or longer, helps a lot; You get all the "rests" while also allowing all enzymes and such to work as long as possible. Don't worry about the odd infection or two; you're not making beer here! If you do get an infection(unlikely as it is), you can always re-heat the wash to a boil, to kill off the infection, and re-pitch the yeast once it has cooled again. we've all done that a time or two, and while doing this to a beer would make for some funky(if not downright nasty) tasting beer, it arguably makes a better whiskey at times! But ya know, I used to worry about infections and all that all the time, and now I rarely even bleach my fermenting buckets; I just wash 'em good, and go for it. It's been a long time since I had an infected wash, and that last one was from gnats getting into it.
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby loneswinger » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:59 pm

Perhaps you are right, I certainly don't worry near as much about sanitation when making mash for distilling as I am for beer making. However, I am not so sure that temperature rests while cooling down are the same as temperature rests while heating up. The reason being that some enzymes will deactivate at high temperatures.

All in all this was a definite learning experience and brought to my attention issues that I never encountered while mashing malted barley and/or corn with perhaps small proportions of rye. This slime is a bitch. It is my understanding that you could encounter similar issues with converting oats. Although it does seem to be getting less viscous the longer it ferments.

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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby blind drunk » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:23 pm

Although it does seem to be getting less viscous the longer it ferments.


That's good news. I never really noticed the slime factor, but I only did a small sample batch, more out of curiosity than anything else. bd.
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby King Of Hearts » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:39 pm

Oats are very oily. Rye is more like wheat.
I did the rest at 100 f and it didnot help much but I used rye malt.
I think you used too much grain. I used 20 lbs and I think that
was too much. 8% abv I will cut down to 6% next time.
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby loneswinger » Tue Nov 02, 2010 5:12 pm

Do a quick search about beta glucans and my problem will show up, it is not new or uncommon. I think that unmalted rye and malted rye might behave totally different. How do you know the rest at 100 f didn't help much? Maybe it did which is why you were able to sparge it. Less grain would probably help, but even if I take some of what is fermenting off and dilute it with water it is still kind of slimy/viscous.

Next time I will do several things differently.

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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby King Of Hearts » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:24 am

The distillers start at 95F and raise it to 149F, not really a rest, but they have a lot of grain to heat up and use enzymes and steam. From http://distillers.tastylime.net/library ... /index.htm
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby King Of Hearts » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:55 am

Failure to maintain good microbial control may result in significant lactobacillus
contamination with the loss of sugar to lactic acid production.
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby loneswinger » Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:04 am

I think a slow heat up is what I will do next time. How did I miss that article before? Thanks. I honestly don't understand the lactic acid concepts. Some places call it a wasteful infection, some places call it a necessity. Someday I will get the pros/cons of the lactobacillus sorted out in my brain.

I think that both of my fermentations are done. The mostly malted barley liquid is down to 1.011. The rye slime is reading 1.000. Both are barely bubbling. I will probably not run it until this weekend though.

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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby Dnderhead » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:00 am

here is an old recipe.if some one wants to try..........

Take four gallons boiling, and two gallons cold water—put it into a
hogshead, then stir in one and a half bushels chopped rye, let it
stand five minutes, then add two gallons cold water, and one gallon
malt, stir it effectually—let it stand till your still boils, then add
sixteen gallons boiling water, stirring it well, or until you break
all the lumps—then put into each hogshead, so prepared, one pint
coarse salt, and one shovel full of hot coals out of your furnace.
(The coals and salt have a tendency to absorb all sourness and bad
smell, that may be in the hogshead or grain;) if there be a small
quantity of hot ashes in the coals, it is an improvement—stir your
hogsheads effectually every fifteen minutes, keeping them close
covered until you perceive the grain scalded enough—when you may
uncover, if the above sixteen gallons boiling water did not scald it
sufficiently, water must be added until scalded enough—as some water
will scald quicker than others—it is necessary to mark this
attentively, and in mashing two or three times, it may be correctly
ascertained what quantity of the kind of water used will scald
effectually—after taking off the covers, they must be stirred
effectually, every fifteen minutes, till you cool off—for which
operation, see "Cooling off." To those who distill all rye, I
recommend this method, as I have found it to answer every kind of
water, with one or two exceptions.
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby King Of Hearts » Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:19 am

loneswinger wrote:I think a slow heat up is what I will do next time. How did I miss that article before? Thanks. I honestly don't understand the lactic acid concepts. Some places call it a wasteful infection, some places call it a necessity. Someday I will get the pros/cons of the lactobacillus sorted out in my brain.

I think that both of my fermentations are done. The mostly malted barley liquid is down to 1.011. The rye slime is reading 1.000. Both are barely bubbling. I will probably not run it until this weekend though.

-Loneswinger


The book also says they use The final cooked mash analyzes at 21-21.5% solids, which calculates to about 264 US gallons liquid dilution
per 56 lb distillers bushel (386 liters liquid dilution per 100 kg) of rye meal.

So that would be 1.85qt per lb.

I got my toasted oak sticks today from oaksolutionsgroup.com They smell like heaven. I charred one and threw it in my gal of whiskey.
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby loneswinger » Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:11 pm

So I should have used closer to 12 gallons of water to dilute 25 lbs of grain, I only used 10. You might want to edit that first line that says 264 US gallons.

I checked it and it is getting even less viscous. Not sure if it will get to the point where the solids will actually settle though. No matter, I have my steam injection system setup to distill on the grain if necessary.

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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby King Of Hearts » Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:26 am

loneswinger wrote:So I should have used closer to 12 gallons of water to dilute 25 lbs of grain, I only used 10. You might want to edit that first line that says 264 US gallons.

I checked it and it is getting even less viscous. Not sure if it will get to the point where the solids will actually settle though. No matter, I have my steam injection system setup to distill on the grain if necessary.

-Loneswinger


I think the 264 gals are a typo from the site or book. I end up with about 2 qts per lb after the ice for chillin. When I mash I save room for 21 lbs of ice to chill to pitch temp. You will probably lose a gal from solids. They just won't settle any further. I end up with about 11 gals total volume with grain.
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby Paulo Moreira » Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:41 pm

Particularly I have used the enzymatic conversion process, I think easy to produce and get good results both in aroma and flavor, as the quantity produced on average is around 330 to 380 liters per ton, have already reached values of around 410 liters per ton, I'm use 70% corn, 20% barley and 10% millet.
The Enzimes is Termomyl 2x (alfa-amilase) and AMG300 (beta-amilase), produced by Novozymes.
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby Midday Moon » Thu May 05, 2011 12:17 pm

"The other, Alberta Distillers, which uses 100% unmalted rye, has developed its own proprietary strain of Aspergillus fungi that specifically converts rye starches into sugars. (Incidentally, for those who are thinking “yuck”, yeast is also a fungus.)"

Where'd you find this out, Burbank? Do you know if they're doing a lactic souring thing too? I wonder if they ever part with fungus starter...

Aspergillus is delicious, very far from "yuck". I've been using it with rice, and it amazes me how sweet and tasty the rice turns after two days with A. oryzae. They call it amazake. You look at it and think you're going to puke, then you end up gobbling the whole bowl down. I've been wanting to try it with rye, so I'm pleasantly surprised to find out that my favorite rye whiskey maker is way ahead of me. Sounds like they're almost making rye shoju.

If it is possible to get full conversion from raw rye, I imagine the reason the big distillers use enzymes and/or malt is for speed. The sugars would probably convert faster, and they would almost certainly ferment way faster. They use 40-48 hour fermentation and keep pushing it through, so a five day fermentation would really slow up their process or require much more fermentation space. Enzymes are way cheaper than slowed production for a big business.
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby King Of Hearts » Thu May 05, 2011 1:51 pm

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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby King Of Hearts » Thu May 05, 2011 1:57 pm

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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby Midday Moon » Thu May 05, 2011 2:57 pm

Thank you for the link. The page you got the quote from is here:

www.canadianwhisky.org/news-views/whist ... iskey.html

Some interesting information, but rather industry for my taste. The lesson to be learned is that we can create our own enzymes with Aspergillus rather than relying on some big company to do it their way. I thought I was going to do something different by using A. in rye, but it turns out that I am simply re-discovering Canadian rye for myself. Cool.
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby lucy_03 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:45 pm

nice post !
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby scout » Tue Dec 10, 2013 6:58 am

King Of Hearts wrote:When was malting invented, could George have done it?

The ancient Egyptians used malt to make beers. So it's been around forever. George Washington did malt the barley that went into his whiskey. I was told, a long time ago, stories of the founding fathers whiskey making. According to those that told me, George Washington made a mash of corn, 60%, rye, 25% and barley malt 15% this fermented for 7-8 days without the use of yeast. Other folks that indulged in this hobby from that time included Adams, Franklin, Jefferson and Revere.
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby Prairiepiss » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:47 am

without the use of yeast.

Without the use of store bought yeast. Maybe? Used wild yeast.
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby Jimbo » Tue Dec 10, 2013 7:55 am

Does anyone have any idea what the old timers used for yeast in their whiskies, 2-300 years ago? Maybe threw a handful of ripe grapes in the mash?
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby Mr Shine » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:10 am

Jimbo wrote:Does anyone have any idea what the old timers used for yeast in their whiskies, 2-300 years ago? Maybe threw a handful of ripe grapes in the mash?

I was amazed when I first read "How to Brew" by John Palmer that brewers didn't always understand the role yeast played in fermentation.

John Palmer wrote:There was a time when the role of yeast in brewing was unknown. In the days of the Vikings, each family had their own brewing stick that they used for stirring the wort. These brewing sticks were regarded as family heirlooms because it was the use of that stick that guaranteed that the beer would turn out right. Obviously, those sticks retained the family yeast culture. The German Beer Purity Law of 1516 - The Reinheitsgebot, listed the only allowable materials for brewing as malt, hops, and water. With the discovery of yeast and its function in the late 1860's by Louis Pasteur, the law had to be amended.


From: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter6.html

Sorry if I'm a bit off-topic.
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby scout » Wed Feb 26, 2014 10:04 am

Jimbo wrote:Does anyone have any idea what the old timers used for yeast in their whiskies, 2-300 years ago? Maybe threw a handful of ripe grapes in the mash?


As I understand it, they didn't know about wild yeast but did know that as long as they used the same stirring paddle in every batch of mash that fermentation would commence. I have read that in Ireland and Scotland the makers of whiskey/whisky would protect the stirring paddle from being touched by anyone other than the "masher". It indicates that the paddle would become the petri dish for the yeasts, keeping it going just required making mash and stirring it with the paddle. I have some wild yeast that gives good flavors, but I keep it up by taking some of the Wort into a jar and adding mashed grain to keep it going from batch to batch. I just got into using some "store bought" yeast, from the local home brew shop it's supposed to be a distiller's yeast.
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby thumper123 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:39 am

Anybody try enzymes for converting their rye?
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby thumper123 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:51 am

Anybody try enzymes for converting their rye?


Oops. Sorry. I missed the second page.
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RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby Kegg_jam » Mon Apr 04, 2016 10:55 am

Yes.

Mixed results. Still trying to figure out a protocol for this. First time I did it it worked really well. Later tries turned out various degrees of slime.

One thing for sure. Do NOT cook it like corn. That was the worst.

So, I know your supposed to do a glucanase rest but am not sure how to implement that with liquid enzymes.

Edit: Doh! Maybe I should go back and read this whole thread. Don't know how I missed it.
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby der wo » Mon Apr 04, 2016 11:08 am

Kegg_jam wrote:So, I know your supposed to do a glucanase rest but am not sure how to implement that with liquid enzymes.

It's just fermenting:
-throw milled rye in boiling water
-add SebStar HTL
-at lower temp add SebamylGl and SebFloTL
This is the simplest possible procedure, but probably not the best. I will see, what FG I get. It is still slimy and has a few nuggets.

If this does not turn out good I would try next time:
-warm water with half dose of SebStarHTL and SebFloTL
-throw in milled rye and heat up to almost boiling (always stirring!)
-add the other half dose of SebStarHTL
-at lower temp add SebamylGL and the other half dose of SebFloTL
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Re: RYE Without Malt Or Acid

Postby der wo » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:51 am

der wo wrote:It's just fermenting:
-throw milled rye in boiling water
-add SebStar HTL
-at lower temp add SebamylGl and SebFloTL
This is the simplest possible procedure, but probably not the best. I will see, what FG I get. It is still slimy and has a few nuggets.

If this does not turn out good I would try next time:
-warm water with half dose of SebStarHTL and SebFloTL
-throw in milled rye and heat up to almost boiling (always stirring!)
-add the other half dose of SebStarHTL
-at lower temp add SebamylGL and the other half dose of SebFloTL

Surprisingly it worked very good.
Although it was cloggy even at the end of mashing, I also had a bad iodine test and taking a SG was impossible because it was unfilterable. But after fermenting the iodine test was good. And the result after stripping (on the grain) was 10vol% ethanol! That's higher than calculated. Probably because much sugar was in the backset. 3l of the total 12l mash was unfiltered backset. I also corrected the pH with potassium carbonate for the first time. I will stick to it.

I will try the second method, because the mashing was a mess. Perhaps second method is easier. But more yield is not possible I think. Probably I will use slightly less grain next time.
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