The Maillard Reaction

All about grains. Malting, smoking, grinding and other preparations.
Which grains are hot, which are not.

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by elektrosport » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:39 am

I think the deal with caramelization is the sugars are made in-edible to yeast and the malliard reaction doesn't affect sugars?

However toasting malt _will_ affect the diastatic power of malt, as the enzymes are denatured at the higher temperatures.
If composing a recipe containing a lot of weak diastatic malt, you can get a malt with extra enzymatic activity - diastatic malt - to make up for it.


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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Odin » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:47 am

Browning at higher temps causes caramalization. That's not what we are after. Apart from destroying malt (which is not so bad in a sugar head) and diastatic power, it just does not give over the same intensity and amount of flavor as Maillard's Reaction does.

Keep temps under 100 degrees C. That's the trick in order to make MR happen.

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by elektrosport » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:48 am

Browning malt at higher temperatures doesn't equal caramelization. Toasted malt is _not_ caramelized - as the starch have not yet been converted to sugar. It is the Malliard reaction. The enzymes may be denatured but we can find new ones elsewhere, convert and ferment.

http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter20-4.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow


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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by bellybuster » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:54 am

nothing finer than a few lbs of toasted 6row in a beer, I can only imagine it would be equally as good in likker

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by elektrosport » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:15 am

+1 Bellybuster.. (Mmmmmm roast malt.....)

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by 1bottler » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:04 am

thanks Odin for the topic, and you other guys for your thoughts and contributions, you have added a whole new direction for my brewing and stilling efforts
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Jimbo » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:16 am

+1 more bellybuster. yes mmmmmmmmm. brewing a batch up this weekend. And I have a sack of 6 row too. I believe Ill do just that with a few pounds. ;)
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by MDH » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:48 am

The still is not a liar. Mash and ferment quality is 99.9% of your performance.

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Jimbo » Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:20 pm

Thanks MDH. Interesting!

Roasted at 200C, doesnt seem they were too concerned about Maillard, unless we're defining it wrong.

1800 EBC units????? Black patent malt is about as black as you can get it, and thats 500SRM (950 EBC)
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by elektrosport » Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:54 pm

The Maillard reaction does not only happen at room temperature or below 100C. One of the more "recent" discoveries of bad guy maillard reactions is acrylamide, which is created at 180C.
I agree that 1800EBC sounds a bit theoretical, makes me wonder what ebc charcoal has? I also have to question the amount of fermentables left in a grain roasted to that extreme.. It does however spark an interest in mashing a good pitch black stout and distilling it, as I will probably never get my hands on that Balvenie for tasting.


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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Odin » Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:04 pm

Guys, maybe some Maillard Reaction takes place in toasting as well, but I think that is not the essence of my find. Toasted is one thing. Slow cooking another. For sure toasted grains will give of other and maybe more tastes than non-toasted grains, but it is the cooking al low temps that enhances the cascade of flavours to develop. That's what I found using rye bread that was baked for 12 to 14 hours under 90 degrees C. And I just compared it to another rye bread baked at much higher temps for only 2 hours. That last one adds taste, I think, but it is really "more of the same". It is the slow cooking under water boiling temps in an alcalyne environment that gives SO much extra.

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by 1bottler » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:05 pm

a while ago I 'balls-up' and got some pearl barley intending to do an ag beer brew, However I've got this bag of PB, do you think it will respond to a Maillard treatment? perhaps mixed with some other grains, by itself it doesn't have much going for it.
I have used it as a substitute for rice in a meal.... but thats another story. Just do not like to waste anything
Last edited by 1bottler on Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by elektrosport » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:39 pm

+1 Odin. I'm sure there are lot more of the melanoidin flavours in the rye cooked for half a day, than a malt toasted for a couple of hours.

It was more to set the record straight that malt toasted above 100C is not nessesarily caramelized. If the starch has not yet been converted to sugars it's "maillardized" - it's toasted with it's sugar potential still more or less intact.

1Bottler, I think you couldn't lose anything - if this things is as powerful as Odin descibes it's a force to be reckoned with. :)


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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Odin » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:14 am

Thanks for adding El Sporto.

Bottler ... just do it! I think it works on all the grains.

May Maillard's force be with us.

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Odin » Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:17 pm

Friend of mine will shoot a short video with instructions on how to Maillardize your own grain. If you don't have access to Dutch rye bread or if you want to make a Maillard recipe using other grains, just use the instruction. He will come over tomorrow so I hope we can finish & post it by then.

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Braz » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:24 pm

Looking forward to it, Odin.
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Jimbo » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:55 pm

Im toasting up 2 lbs of 6 row at 350F (176C) for 30 min to add to a Pale Ale. Sorry, I dont have multiple hours today to slow roast at 90C, stike water is heating as we speak.

Calling it Toasted Blond, here's the label I just made for it, do love that Maillard Reaction on some skin tones.... hahaha
ToastedBlondsm.JPG
Edit: I fixed the temp above, did 350F not 250F. Kitchen smells amazing!
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Odin » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:21 pm

The picture is nice, toasting will be good, but temps are too high to fully take advantage of the Maillard Reaction I am affraid! The toast will add to the drink's flavor, I am sure.

I want to make this as clear as I can to anybody reading these posts, without the intention of being blunt:

Toasting grain at higher temps (above water boiling temps), with or without water:
This will give you toasted grain. It will impart a different taste (toasted), but you will get nowhere near how a Maillard Reaction treated grain is. You won't get the flavor cascade you are looking for. I know, because in my quest to get more taste out of my UJ-like recipes (with corn, with rye, with wheat, with barley) I have toasted like this. It gave of a nice smell and scent, but does not nearly have the complexity and taste intensity.

Toasting grain at lower temps (preferably at 90 degrees C or 194 degrees F) in an alcalyne aquatic environment for a prolongued period of time:
That's where the Maillard Reaction is optimal. You will get that flavor cascade that allows you to drop (in an UJ-like sugar head whiskey) the amount of grains to 1/3rd. Or to blend in a final result with other, less strong tasting likker.

Really guys, toasting will give of tastes and Maillard Reactions will (also) happen, but the keys are (and I will repeat it once more): hot water, alcalyne, prolongued cooking at low temps.

Try it. You will be amazed. You will be flabbergasted (love that word).

I had two friends stepping by last night. The guy that is going to shoot the video today was there as well. I served a glass of my still very young rye bread (so Maillardized) sugar head whiskey. First reaction: "Nice!" I asked them to just swallow a gulp down and keep there mouths closed. One could, the other couldn't, felt that it was so spicy, too hot, he needed to take a glass of water. "Amazing! How long does that taste linger?" is what I got back. So I asked him to take another sip and tell me when taste was gone. Took two minutes before he raised his hand and said: "Well, that was about it ... I guess!"

Maillard will to an extend take place at pretty much any temperature. And even in less than alcalyne environments. To an extend. But even if it does, the central Q remains: what tastes will you get out of it. Higher temp Maillard Reactions may even give of less favourable taste notes. Indulge me and please try to replicate my findings. Anyone here has a slow cooker or oven that can heat as low as 90 degrees C?

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Last edited by Odin on Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by blind drunk » Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:15 am

I know of this reaction when I bake naturally leavened bread mostly. One thing I've been doing is mixing the all the water and flour and letting the mass sit for up to twelve hours. This extended period (called autolyse in baking) sets off the enzymes that in turn release many compounds into the dough mass. After this 12 hour period, I add the starter, salt and sometimes diastatic malt and mix the final dough. Then I proceed as usual; bulk rise, scale, shape and final proof. This extra step adds crazy flavor to the end product and a really amazing crust. I get an excellent MR doing it this way. Not directly relevant, but somehow related to the thread, at least in theory. Cheers!
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Odin » Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:23 am

BD,

I would say: very relevant! Water, alcalyne, relative low temps, prolongued resting period ... and you get amazing taste. That pretty much sums it up. Don't matter if it is bread or likker, right?

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Jimbo » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:35 am

Odin, I would love to be flabbergasted :-D Please help me out here on how to properly do this. Say I want to convert 2 lbs of 6 row. How do I best get the water and alcaline thing going on? Recipe?

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Odin » Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:55 am

Crack your 6 row. Bring one quart of water to the boil. Throw the 6 row into the boiling water and turn the heating of at that same moment. We don't want to boil the grain. Only to put it in boiling water. Mix well, put the lid on, let the mixture cool overnight. Next day take the lid of, put the mixture in an oven tray, cover the tray with alu foil. Put the tray in the over at 90 degrees C/194 degrees F and cook it for 3 hours. Take out the tray for a bit, put in some more water (maybe 0.2 to 0.3 liter), mix and put the mixture back in the oven, at 90 degrees C/194 degrees F for another 3 hours. Take the now Maillardized grain out of the oven and out of the tray. Start up like a regular UJ or SF and ferment. Rack the beer, clear the beer, distill the beer (strip), distill the low wines making cuts. Some ageing on wood or drink it white.

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Jimbo » Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:13 am

Excellent, thanks! gonna print that one and stick it in my book.

Im going to do this with an AG barley malt whiskey. What % maillardized v straight 2 row would you recommend?

Many thanks geneverguru (thats been your name in my head since I read all your exploits with the 'forgotten drink' ;-)

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by elektrosport » Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:35 am

BD: This is probably the most interesting tip on breads I've seen in a long time. But you're working with very wet dough I take it, or do you just roughly mix it up and leave it lumpy? Can you give me any percentages on your breads, I normally work with a 70-75% hydration?


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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Odin » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:13 am

Jim, I am not much of an AG guru, but will try to think with you here. If you do AG, it is important that you have enough enzymes for conversion. Now I think it is safe to say that malted barley that has been in an oven at 90C/194F for hours will loose its ability to convert starch to sugar. Enzymes break down fast at those temps. Starches will not be affected, so the level of available sugars and the potential abv of your wash should not deteriorate from the M. Reaction.

So how much barley you want to MR depends on how much enzymes your malt has. And on how much taste you want. Just thinking out loud and putting the limited amount of experience we now have into that ... MR 1/3rd to half of the grain. That's what I would do.

AG gurus please correct me if I see the influence of MR on convertability and abv wrong.

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Jimbo » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:19 am

As far as enzymes and diastatic power, DP, yes I need to hit 30. But that only requires ~20 % of 6 row (160 DP)

Would you go as high as 80% maillardized grain?
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Dnderhead » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:43 am

"Would you go as high as 80% maillardized grain"
you would either need to make it light in color or use it as a adjacent.

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Jimbo » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:53 am

Ok maybe Ill start with a 50/50 split first go round.

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by blind drunk » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:01 am

I sent you a PM electrosport.
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Odin » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:10 am

Jim, I think that's wise, to go 50/50. DP wise you could go as high as 80% Maillardized ... but taste might well be too intense.

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