The Maillard Reaction

All about grains. Malting, smoking, grinding and other preparations.
Which grains are hot, which are not.

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Odin
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Odin » Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:16 pm

If the Maillard took on, you won't be getting back much taste from the corn, Ridge. But you will end up with a very nice drink for sure.

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The Maillard Reaction - with Sour Mashes

Post by likkerluvver » Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:33 am

I'm fermenting my 3rd generation of 2 (separate) Sour Mash washes - Corn (frozen sweetcorn) and Sour Rye (un-malted feed grain) "Maillardizing" for 12+ hours in slow cookers on "Low" setting with 1t baking soda.

Here's my recipe:
3kg (6.5lb) grain - whole, uncrushed
4.5kg (10lb) sugar
1t citric - first gen only
100% backset 2nd gen on... adding calcium carbonate to keep pH above 4
60ml (1/4C) bakers yeast
water - to 28L total vol - with 1/8t K Meta, 2t gypsum, 1/8t Epsom

replace grain after 4 gens
use just 4L (7.5usg) backset in the "new" 5th gen
use 100% backset for next 3 gens
water - to 28L

I also plan to run un-malted feed corn, feed oats, feed wheat, and feed barley. Should enable a good comparison of the grain-type differences.

Too early to comment fully but I can say that even the first gen tastes remarkably good. The rye is nice and spicy - without the "grassy" flavour I associate with un-malted grains. The corn is mellow but very tasty. :thumbup:


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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Ridgerunnr » Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:59 am

Is there a way to tell by taste or smell if it did?

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fail

Post by Ridgerunnr » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:40 am

Well ran my flaked rye recipe I posted earlier... basically
Ended up with neutral flav spirits.. talk about disappointing!!!!!!
Need to try the actual rye bread recipe..just cannot locate they correct
Bread

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Odin » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:02 am

Try finding pumpernickel!

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by the pure drop » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:08 pm

Odin,

I love the idea of Mailard Reaction. Your proposed method sounds very replicable in the everyman's kitchen. However, I plan on doing this with UJSM and will be stepping up the quantity to do two barrells of 20 gallons each. I try to only run my rig once per year, so I do three 40 gallon strip runs and one spirit run. Usually keeps me supplied the rest of the year with left overs. At any rate, what would be your proposed corn/ water/ yeast ammounts for a 20 gallon batch, and how would you proceed with producing the Mailard Reaction in the kitchen oven/ stovetop? I guess I'm kind of looking for a quasi step-by-step if you can help. Thank you.
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Odin » Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:24 pm

Depends on the size of your oven, Pure Drop!

Regards, Odin.
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by the pure drop » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:22 am

Odin,

Standard kitchen size oven. I don't mind doing it whatever batch sizes I can fit in the oven, then repeating the process until my grains are all prepared. Just kind of looking for a psuedo step-by-step of how you do it yourself. I would like to follow your methods to try this out.
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Odin » Fri Dec 20, 2013 9:19 am

Why don't you use the method I propose earlier in this tread, Pure Drop?

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by aj2456 » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:05 am

just to chip in- ive been reading about this reaction in relation to belgian candi suagr making- incidentally the recipe i use for that uses DAP- the yeast nutrient and acid is apprently wrong-been working fine for me???- anyway this guy's stuff might make for some interesting reading- lime to lower pH for eg:

http://ryanbrews.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02 ... -been.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Prairiepiss » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:50 am

Nice share. I have bookmarked it so I can read that later. Thanks.
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by whiskeyD » Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:12 am

At our distillery, Corsair, we use a lot of dark malts and believe heavily in the maillard reaction improving the finish of our whiskeys. We have experimented with about 60 different malts. One of my personal favorites is chocolate rye malt, if you add just 1% to the mash bill it comes over distillation and enhances the finish. I also like caramel 120. In international competitions, whiskey judges will judge your spirits on the nose, the body, and the finish. Dark malts add a slight caramel or chocolate note to the finish. Almost all our award winners had at least a hint of a dark malt in the mashbill. I really like the book "Beer and Ingredients II, The Ultimate Beer Ingredient Guide, What Does What.: Take Your Homebrew to the Next Level, Brewers Ingredient Guide." The kindle version is only $1.99.
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Odin » Sun Dec 22, 2013 7:38 am

Thanks for sharing, WhiskeyD! What I personally find, it that the Maillard reaction does need time. In the beginning a drink can be too hot. It takes more time than non-Maillardized grains to age to perfection. Do you have any comments on or experiences with that?

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Bu77hed » Sat Jan 25, 2014 8:41 pm

Odin,
I see talk of using MR in UJSSM and Rye bread recipes. Have you used this method with you cornflakes recipe? I know cornflakes are already cooked and toasted but would they benefit from a longer MR?

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Odin » Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:11 pm

No, there would not be, because, as you say, it is already cooked. But if you start with fresh grains and can cook/bake them for hours and hours in an alkaline & wet environment, in a temp range around 90 degrees C ... you can do the MR process yourself. Not sure what it does on corn. I know it works on rye. It also works on barley. Scottish single malt derives much of its taste from the fact it is smoke dried at low temps for a prolongued period of time.

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Odin » Sat Jan 25, 2014 11:11 pm

No, there would not be, because, as you say, it is already cooked. But if you start with fresh grains and can cook/bake them for hours and hours in an alkaline & wet environment, in a temp range around 90 degrees C ... you can do the MR process yourself. Not sure what it does on corn. I know it works on rye. It also works on barley. Scottish single malt derives much of its taste from the fact it is smoke dried at low temps for a prolongued period of time.

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by scout » Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:21 pm

Great information now I will have to give this a try on a Scots recipe all malt. Will try this with a 20% peat roast barley mash and let you know how it turns out at the worm and as it ages in an old cask I have some brandy in that's getting close to coming out of the wood. Thank you Odin !
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by hstuurman » Fri Mar 07, 2014 9:55 am

So Odin has said about 3 to 4 times to me, read the topic Maillard Reaction.... And yes I've read it Odin, but better I read it the first time you told me :?
I've made an UJ with rye, trying with the Maillard treatment (http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p7169536), and used 100% treated rye. There is one hope the flavour won't be to much, I didn't toast the rye in the oven (not enough space), just mixed it with hot boiled water and let it cool down for one day (bucket covered with a blanket).
This is an UJ type, but I also wanna start an AG, and am wondering. Before I can use the rye, it need to be cooked (to break open the starchcells), would this also happen when I treat the rye like the Maillard Reaction. The rye I treated for the UJ was turned into a sticky mash. Anyone experienced with this?
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by TonsOfFun » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:39 am

skow69 wrote:
Odin wrote: So ... don't give up just yet, Skow! I think the idea of adding sugar is great. But ... just thinking this along as we go ahead ... maybe you should first crack the corn, then boil it for a few minutes and THEN give it the MR treatment with that addition of sugar. Not saying it works, but I would go that way and hope you want to join in.
I'll give that a shot next time around.

You're right about the giving up the starch. The thing is that the grain has to absorb enough water to soften or weaken the cell walls to let the starch out. They call it gelatinization. And corn has a much higher gelatinization temperature than other grains. That's why it needs the boil, and that's why it is so temperamental. Oh well, if it was easy it wouldn't be as much fun, right?

I keep thinking that maybe it would work better after the mash when the natural sugars are available. But that would open a whole new set of complications. Your suggestion is much more straight forward. We should probably think about it some more. On the next mash I'll try that or some combination or something, and we'll see what happens.
In regards to MR-ing corn...what complications do you see arising after corn has been gelatinized and mashed with a malted grain? I have been thinking about this for a few days and can't come up with anything...maybe I am missing it. Now let's say I want to do a UJ style mash. In theory couldnt i gelatinize crack corn as I would if I were doing AG, then mash with malted barley, and once the conversion is complete give it the MR treatment? From there then add the MR'd grains to the rest of my grain bill (un-MR'd) and carry on from there...

This a very intreging thread. Odin, thanks for posting! Everyone Else thanks for sharing your insight.

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by baton » Sat Jun 21, 2014 6:50 pm

Hi everybody!

Unfortunately currently i have no access to rye. In Russia it is not used
for forage and the seeding crops are gone now, so i have to wait for a
month till winter crops will be available. So I decided to give a try to
the wheat. And the first try wasn't quite successful. Do anybody have any
experience in wheat Maillardization?

I tried the following lazy scheme -
4kg of green malted wheat was milled, 4l of water was added
then mix was heated to 62C for 90 min and for 90C for the rest of the
nighht (6h approx) on the water bath
color of this porridge became brown and the smell changed significantly,
but nothing close to bread (should it?), taste became quite sweat after 90'
at 62C
then just diluted with fresh water up to final 20l and added simple bakers
yeasts
now it popples, but quite more calm than usual (same scheme without MR
reproduces simple bread wine and ferments out dry in 2 days, very intense)

Odin, could you post (if have any) a photos of different stages of
mallardization of the rye? may be even with the description of important
indirect signs of process stages (such as odors, consistensy etc)...?
Please =) So I could more reliably extrapolate your method on wheat...

Thanks! =)

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Odin » Sun Jun 22, 2014 1:21 am

Sorry no pics! But create a slightly alkaline environment and keep temps at around 90 degrees C and you should get there without problems.

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by azeo » Sun Jul 20, 2014 3:39 am

This rang a bell, wish I'd followed it up.. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =7&t=11444

Similar process (Nixtamalization) by the sound of it, but it also sounds that a relatively small amount of rye achieves a great result. Look forward to trying it one day...

az

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by midwest shinner » Mon Jul 28, 2014 5:00 pm

Seems the maillard reaction has a few applications in brewing/stilling, i was just reading on a homebrew forum how the maillard reaction happens during a good hot break in beer brewing and contributes to color development in your finished beer. Thought that was kind of interesting...
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Odin » Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:18 am

I dived in some deeper. And had some talks with pro distillers on the subject of the Maillard Reaction. We all know distilling on the grain results in more taste transfer in the final drink. Interesting thing is part of it may be caused by a (partial) Maillard Reaction that goes on in the boiler during the actual distillation process.

Grains in the boiler, temperatures around 90 degrees C for prolongued periods of time ...

Many distillers attribute the more intense taste transfer at least partially to the MR. Some say that direct heating causes more MR to take place, thus creating a more intense/complex drink.

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by goldfishcf » Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:01 pm

Sorry to resurrect an older post. But I was doing the reading on this post, most of all of the comments as well.
I do have one question with this reaction that was not mentioned. .. Could I make a bigger batch than I need, and dry/freeze the extra until needed. Just using for flavor. So enzyme health is less of an issue.
Thanks in advance.

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by W Pappy » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:27 am

This is one of the best reads I have come across Still not much experimenting done I see.
I will give this a try next week on SF figure hell rinse the grains off with hot water to get
the molasses off.And give her hell should be interesting.
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by skow69 » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:06 pm

goldfishcf wrote:Sorry to resurrect an older post. But I was doing the reading on this post, most of all of the comments as well.
I do have one question with this reaction that was not mentioned. .. Could I make a bigger batch than I need, and dry/freeze the extra until needed. Just using for flavor. So enzyme health is less of an issue.
Thanks in advance.
I don't think that drying or freezing would harm the reaction per se, but I would expect some loss of quality in general, like with preserving any food for storage. We'll never know how much until you try it, but I would bet real green money that it is better fresh.
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by bitter » Thu May 21, 2015 3:25 pm

Odin,

I am thinking about doing a UJSSM for making pure whiskey with my boka. What percentage of mallardized rye would you use percentage wise? I was thinking 1/2 fresh rye berries and 1/2 mallardized... for a 100% rye Ujssm... Other thought was 1/3 corn, 1/3 fresh Rye berries, 1/3 Mallardized rye. Thoughts?

B

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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by Odin » Thu May 21, 2015 9:58 pm

If you go for rye, either leave out the corn, or minimize the maillardized rye to max 10%. Otherwise the rye will completely overpower the corn.

Regards, Odin.
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Re: The Maillard Reaction

Post by bitter » Fri May 22, 2015 3:16 am

Thanks!

I really appreciate all the knowledge you share here! I think I will try the corn rye mix first hoping its closer to a Canadian whiskey on the first run through... Then sour mash it and have something else. Once my beer and gin is done time for this recipe!

B

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