Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

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der wo
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Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by der wo »

I am thinking about to mash some Malt Whisky from 100% speciality malts.

Has someone a reference, that speciality malts can be made fermentable by the liquid enzymes we normally use (SEBstar, SEBamyl ...)?

For example:
-Special B or W
-Crystal dark
-Chocolate malt
-Roasted dark
-Carafa
-Carabohemian
-Abbey malt
-Melanoidin malt

Each mashed alone at 100%. And perhaps blended after distilling.

Probably I will mash with high-temp-alpha, two waters with lautering, then a hot brake, to get a clear beer, and finally again a bit high-temp-alpha and of course glucoamylase. I hope to clean out the taste and accentuate the original special taste this way.

Because it's experimental, I want to do reflux single runs.

I know, that a 100% speciality malt beer would be impossible to drink. But a 100% heavy peated malt beer too. So this is no argument against.

Any ideas or experience?
How much differs the sugar potential of speciality malts. Is it similar to base malts? Or will I need more malt for the same abv?

I want to try it this autumn. But will order the malt in two weeks or a month.
Last edited by der wo on Tue May 31, 2016 11:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

der wo wrote:I know, that a 100% speciality malt beer would be impossible to drink.
I've used specialty malts in a 5% - 7% range. The flavors are quite pronounced, at 100% even the distilled spirit might be undrinkable.
But it might be great for blending into other spirits.

I know a good portion of crystal malts are fermentable, but there will be unfermentables as well in the various grains.

I would like to see where this goes...
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by der wo »

I hoped, you have some info MichiganCornhusker. Because you wrote here something:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 34&t=50467
So you think, very dark speciality malts are more angry beasts than heavy peated malt?
Do you think, I can break down the unfermentables with enzymes?
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

der wo wrote:So you think, very dark speciality malts are more angry beasts than heavy peated malt?
Do you think, I can break down the unfermentables with enzymes?
Well, I just ate a handful of heavily peated barley malt, and it is quite tasty.
I don't mind eating crystal malts. Black patent, or roasted? No, I don't want to eat those.

I don't know a great deal about mashing beyond the standard protocols for the usual grain starches and sugars.
Someone posted recently about caramelizing sugar at low temps. I do know that kilning my homemade malts changes the character they lend to the whiskey a great deal.

So, I suspect that the heating/roasting does create unfermentables, and that standard enzymes don't break them down again.
Even so, there is still a lot of starch in the specialty grains that never got converted in the first place, so they would be available to the enzymes.

I would very much like to hear more about this idea, thanks for posting.
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by 3d0g »

Have you read Darek Bell's (Corsair Distillery) Alt Whiskeys? Does a good job of covering alternative grains, hopped whiskeys, etc.
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by der wo »

If the taste will be too strong or whatever, I will notice after distilling the heads. Then I would hold the abv high and distill it more like a vodka. And hope, when diluting it down, the flower opens and the aromas come out like a phoenix from ashes. The dirtiest backset with sugar fermented turns out the best vodka often.

3dOg,
crazy, that there is a book about that. Why? For whom? But 22 customer reviews on amazon!
I see there is a homepage too: http://altwhiskeys.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I will think about. But it's almost 40€...
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Alt was one of the first books I got as soon as I started distilling. Lots of creative ideas and recipes in there.
der wo here is going off the reservation with this idea though.

100% chocolate rye malt?? I really don't know if that could be a good spirit, but I'm not sure anyone has tried it yet.
The could be a great opportunity for custom mixing/blending an essence from specialty malts with basic whiskeys.
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by der wo »

I never have brewed beer and never had speciality malts in my hands. I only know them from pictures. :lol: Except heavily peated malt. So perhaps my idea is naive.
I have to order some normal rye and barley malt for bourbon and rye. So I will order some specialities too, malt is cheap. Perhaps 3 different types. Barley, perhaps wheat, but not rye. Any wishes, which type I should order?
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by shadylane »

I've been experimenting with whiskey made from homemade wheat crystal malt.
Mashed with enzymes and fermented on the grain.
Can't give you accurate measurements, but the mash efficiency is good enough for homedistillation.
And the flavor is both good and unique.
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by der wo »

shadylane wrote:I've been experimenting with whiskey made from homemade wheat crystal malt.
Mashed with enzymes and fermented on the grain.
Can't give you accurate measurements, but the mash efficiency is good enough for homedistillation.
And the flavor is both good and unique.
Thanks. Just the information I need. And the next idea: Because I am totally independend of malt enzymes, I could buy a base malt and roast it at home. Now the variations would become endless (I could soak it in coffee and fire cinammon for roasting for example... :lol: ). But first I will buy and try some normal speciality malts, that I know what I am talking about.
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by shadylane »

You can also rehydrate base malt and make crystal malt out of it.
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by still_stirrin »

shadylane wrote:You can also rehydrate base malt and make crystal malt out of it.
+1

I have hydrated (soaked for 30 minutes in a bucket of water) Pils malt and spread on a cookie sheet and placed that on a meat smoker heated with hickory wood. I smoked the malt, turning it with a spoon every 20 minutes, until it had a fabulous color, even with some charcoal-like appearance. I then took it off the smoker and cooled it in a pillow case and let it "season" for two weeks. The smoking brings out melanoids and caramelizes some of the sugars converted by the enzymes when hydrated.

I then brewed a Rauchbier (traditional Bambergian-style) with the Bavarian lager (Wyeast 2206) yeast. When done fermenting, I lagered it for 6 months and bottled. The beer won me a AHA national gold medal and the recipe was published in an AHA publication. The judges compared my beer to Schlenkerla rauchbier....what a compliment! I've been to the Schlenkerla brewery in Bamberg and indeed my homemade rauch was very close to the fresh off-tap beer.

All this to say, making your own fresh crystal & rauch malt will give you the best and biggest flavor profile. It's easy to do and you can even smoke some meat while smoking the grains.
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by der wo »

Thank you ss and congratulations,

I will definetely try something like homemade zwieback malt whisky. :D

But first I ordered today:
- weyermann spezial w (in the US named special b I think) with EBC 280-300
- carafa (R) type 2 with EBC 1100-1200
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by shadylane »

Just my opinion based on limited experience.
Depending on how radical the specialty malt, the whiskey made from it will probably need a long aging to be good.
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by Boda Getta »

I recommend starting off with basic 2row or 6 row malted until you get a few runs under your belt, then start playing around. I think I would start with adding rye, wheat, smoked malt before I would the fancy stuff. Many of them are designed for brewing and distilling.
Good luck
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by der wo »

shadylane wrote:Just my opinion based on limited experience.
Depending on how radical the specialty malt, the whiskey made from it will probably need a long aging to be good.
The special w is not very radical, but the carafa is extreme.
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by der wo »

boda getta wrote:I recommend starting off with basic 2row or 6 row malted until you get a few runs under your belt, then start playing around. I think I would start with adding rye, wheat, smoked malt before I would the fancy stuff. Many of them are designed for brewing and distilling.
Good luck
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I am not the oldest guy here, so I am sure, some of my opinions will change someday. And of course trying something new is not always a success.

I have done normal malt whisky, heavily peated malt whisky, bourbon, 51% rye, 100% rye, 100% corn and horsefeed-AG (barley, corn and oats). Each different batches, always trying something new (on the grain, off the grain, hot brake, with or without added enzymes, fine or coarse milled grains, adding backset with and without pH-correction, sour mash...) and also did such things like fermenting pure backset or draff with sugar distilling whisky or vodka from it.

Now the fancy stuff. :D
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by der wo »

I just right now mash my first 100% speciality malt. Its the Weyermann Special W with EBC 280-300.
The high-temp-alpha worked as always fantastic. The mash smells like burned chocolate and dark acidic bread. It tastes like bitter dark beer (without alcohol).

I also make a sugarhead with the spent malt.
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by Odin »

I love this thread!

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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by der wo »

Thank you Odin.

After two sparges I tried to do a hot break to settle out proteine trub yesterday. I boiled the lautered mash for an hour, it lost much of the sour smell, now the chocolate is dominating. I could pull off some foam from the surface (foam is bitter normally. I fear the resulting spirit will be bitter), but no trub was formed.
All in all it's not more awful than a heavily peated malt mash. So I hope that it will turn out interesting and drinkable. But I am in fear of my next malt, the 1100-1200 EBC roasted malt.
The pH was much deeper than usual. Although I bufferd it with calcium carbonate, after conversion it was at 4.5pH.
It was my plan to get a relative high SG for malt whisky, because I will do a single reflux run and my still is small. And it worked. I got 1.079, so I hope for at least 10%, perhaps 11%.
Both buckets are bubbling now as usual.
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Great experiment, I'm looking forward to where this leads.
Even if the spirits are too intense, the could be great for blending to come up with new recipes.
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by der wo »

The fermentation of the sugarhead was normal and the smell was not so much different from other grain-sugarheads I have done. Yes, a hint of chocolate, but not really much. Also after stripping the result is not very exceptional. It had much chocolate at the beginning, but the end of the strip is very neutral and clean. All in all cleaner than for example bourbon low wines.

The original malt whisky is much different and much more intense. Unlike with normal malts, where a draff-sugarhead has a similar taste like the original malt, here it seems, all the speciality malt taste is flushed into the original malt and the draff tastes similar like normal malt draff.
The mash foamed even more than a normal malt mash. It looked like Guinness, almost black beer with a very stable foam, and it smelled like black forest cake or dark chocolate with dried fruits like orange, cherry or blackberry. Yummy, but very different from whisky.
The fermentation was fast, it looked like the conversion from roasted starches into fermentable sugars would be no problem for the enzymes. But unfortunantely I was wrong, the FG was 1016. So I got 8.2% abv only. I fear it is not possible for the enzymes to crack burned starches down. I will see it, when trying to mash a darker malt.
The taste of the fermented mash was extreme bitter of course.
I decided to run it without stripping in a single run through my short column, 2", 20cm copper scrubbers, 30cm stainless SPP, controlled with LM. After equalizing I tossed only a small foreshot cut, no heads, but I collected seperately a few little jars. After that I tried to maintain 87°C (~72%), but decided soon for a lower temp 85°C (~75%) because of an tailsy yeast smell, which appeared soon. 85°C is a higher rectification than I choose for fruit brandies normally. I didn't rack of the yeast, but I always distill whisky with the yeast, never had this problem, the yeast smell appears somewhere in the tails always. An extreme early tails cut would only reduce the yeast smell. A much higher rectification would cut it off perhaps, but a strong flavored wodka is no real whisky, but who cares, if it tastes well. Without this yeast smell, it would be a really nice whisky. The smell of the late heads is fantastic and all in all the taste is very strong and smooth like dark malt drops. But this off-smell destroys too much.

I will air it a week, then decide if I put in on oak or distill it again sometime perhaps together with the sugarhead low wines or with next experiments.
My next attempt with dark Carafa malt will get an overdose enzymes. If I get an even higher FG, I think the enzymes don't work on burned starches.
Perhaps I will use my longer column, 1m, or perhaps do only a stripping run and decide the next step after that.

All in all I am a bit unhappy, that I didn't get a clear result, either good or bad.


Edit: It was the first time I distilled grain in a single run. I often distill fruit in single runs, but never grain.
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by der wo »

The most of the yeast smell aired out. But the last bit will need long aging probably or it will never go away. I fear I am guilty making bad cuts here...
I have it in two jars with oak sticks now, which already worked for me longer than a year. All in all it's not so special or extreme than expected. Perhaps because I rectified it more than I would do it with normal whisky.

Aaaand today is the day I mash 100% Carafa Typ 2 with 1100-1200 EBC. Milling a roasted malt is different than milling a light malt. The hulls break in many pieces because they are still deteriorated by the roasting procedure. I recognized this with the Special W malt too, but here it's more extreme. Lautering the Special W was easy, so I hope it will work here too. But as mentioned I fear the the enzymes will not produce many fermentable sugars.

After mashing in it looks like mousse au chocolat... alpha amylase works well... it tastes like coffee set now...
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by bilgriss »

Just looked at the mash potential for Carafa II, and I was surprised that it is rated nearly as high as most of the crystal malts. I would have expected less. This might be interesting.
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by der wo »

Yes. But normally you add 5% only to a beer. So its yield is not really important. I think the high number is, because the starch level is high because the roasting burns and evaporates other things away. They simply count the starch level I think. But if you get really fermentable sugars? We will see.

Liquidification worked well. I have lautered the first time just right now. Also worked well. But the kitchen is black all over now... Mashing in to the second water now.
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by shadylane »

I enjoy reading your experiments :thumbup:
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by der wo »

Thanks shady,

After an overnight rest with muuuch enzymes I got a SG of 1.069. Sounds good. But it doesn't taste as sweet as 1.069 and rubbing it between the fingers feels not as sticky as 1.069 normally does. So I doubt that there are many fermentables.
It smells and tastes exact like unsugared coffee. Perhaps coffee is 95% roasting and only 5% coffee bean flavor?
The fermentation started as usual.

I have my hydrometer in the fermenter, can watch it without opening it. When it will finish too early "the sun of Mannheim" will help out (Mannheim is a city in Germany with a large sugar company...).
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by der wo »

The fermentation of the Carafa Typ 2 roasted malt whisky:

If the Special W malt fermented mash smelled like black forest cake, the Carafa is coffee soaked marble cake.

It fermented fast, much fluffy foam, but after 24h it stalled at 1.050. From 1.069 to 1.050 is 2.5%abv only. So I added sugar in two steps for total 9.5% alcohol. FG was 1.038. 1.038 instead of 1.050 doesn't mean, that there happened further conversion while fermentation, although alpha and gluco enzymes were still alive. No, I think it's only the higher abv that lowers the measurement.
Because it is so similar to coffee, I searched for nutrition facts for roasted coffee beans. I found infos like "65% starch" but also like "65% fiber". And that coffee has much indigestible carbon hydrates. It seems the enzymes have the same problem with roasted starch like our stomach.
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by Jimbo »

der wo wrote: crazy, that there is a book about that. Why? For whom? But 22 customer reviews on amazon!
I see there is a homepage too: http://altwhiskeys.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I will think about. But it's almost 40€...
Its a good book. Ive read it and recommend it. +1 to the comments about 100% specialty being undrinkable. Also, they are very expensive. Another option may be to do some 'specializing' of your own on a bag of malt. I make a beer I call Toasted Blond. I take standard 2 row and toast it in the oven until it just starts to change color. i use it at 25% or so of the grain bill and the beer takes on an immediate delicious aroma and toasty flavor. You could roast to different levels, right up to black, and do experiments all out of the same bag of brewers malt. Then if you like the results, you can spend away on the other specialty malts. Belgian Biscuit, Melanoidin and Honey Malt are some of my favorites.
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Re: Experimental mashing 100% speciality malt whisky?

Post by der wo »

The stripping run of the Carafa Typ 2 spent malt sugarhead whisky:

The low wines of the spent malt sugarhead with the Special W was not very special. So I didn't expect much with the Carafa.
But I was wrong.
The low wines have a very interesting smell like dried herbs, which is new and surprising for me. The mash didn't smell like this. It's a mix from dried herbs like thyme, rosemary or basilic and tobacco, chocolate and yeast. And all in all a bit smoky. The smoke is not like a wooden campfire, more like smoke of those herbs. And a bit like frankincense and cinnamon, especially the smell of an emptied and dried glass. It's not like peat smoke, but like peat smoke it is not real pleasant but very interesting and complex, abstract and medical. But unfortunately it has the scorched mash smell too, which I hope the spirit run will reduce. The first part of the low wines also had fruitiness of course (heads), the last part only smokiness. The fruitiness is not fresh like apple, more an unidentifiable dark fruit.

I will mix both spent malt sugarhead low wines and the feints of the original malts and do the spirit run soon.
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