Looking around, there are occasional references to smoked grains and malts, but no single discussion just on the topic, so maybe its time.
I'm finding that, with a bit of age, my whiskeys with a bit of peated barley are most to my taste. Some have corn and rye as well as barley, but that bit of peat just gives a complexity. The Scots use peat but they don't have many trees. So its probably the case than many timbers can be used for smoking grain. The BBQ world has lots of wisdom on timbers that are safe and tasty.
So a first experiment (besides using store-bought peated grain) was to take the trusty steam distiller/lauter tun and connect it to a smoker for meats etc. The ground grain sits both above and below a false bottom. See pic. 2kg of grain was smoked at once.
Two batches - one with 1 cup of wood chips per 6kg grain, one with 2 cups wood chips per 6kg grain. The second may be a bit over the top, and the tails were just too much, but the hearts were full-on but tasty.
Its not clear whether it is necessary to smoke grain directly, or whether a smoke generator connected directly to a condenser, with the liquid smoke so generated being added to the mash, will do the same job. That is the next experiment.
Smoked grains and malts
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Smoked grains and malts
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- Grain smoking expt
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
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der wo
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Re: Smoked grains and malts
From the brewers we know, that wood-smoked grains will produce a ham flavor. In Germany smoked beers are called for fun Schinkenbier (ham beer).
If the smoke is too hot the enzymes denature. If the steam is too wet, enzymes start working and will more sensitive about temperature and denature... So I think, it is not easy. You will need a long and not too hot smoking.
You know my thread about speciality malts?
Here:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... speciality
If the smoke is too hot the enzymes denature. If the steam is too wet, enzymes start working and will more sensitive about temperature and denature... So I think, it is not easy. You will need a long and not too hot smoking.
You know my thread about speciality malts?
Here:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... speciality
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
Re: Smoked grains and malts
Woah, interesting page. Thx for link.
A smoker connected to a still condenser is very much like the method for making methyl alcohol. So it will be an interesting experiment. It may be prudent, when smoking grains, to include a bake before mash.
<update>
Well the smoke just blows out of the condenser. Probably that should have been expected. So the grain as a trap is needed. No liquid came out, so what water and methanol must have condensed on smoke generator - it did not have time to get very hot. Experiment cut short as soon as it was clear that it was not going to produce smoke water.
A smoker connected to a still condenser is very much like the method for making methyl alcohol. So it will be an interesting experiment. It may be prudent, when smoking grains, to include a bake before mash.
<update>
Well the smoke just blows out of the condenser. Probably that should have been expected. So the grain as a trap is needed. No liquid came out, so what water and methanol must have condensed on smoke generator - it did not have time to get very hot. Experiment cut short as soon as it was clear that it was not going to produce smoke water.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Re: Smoked grains and malts
I am not reporting from experience but from one of my reference books Alt Whiskey's by Darek Bell owner of Corsoir Artisan Distillery. In his book he has a whole section on this subject including recipes on smoked whiskey's. Here is what he says:
Smoked malt, to other grain ratio:
25-50% -Noticeable smoke character but still light, and not overpowering.
50-70% -Pronounced smoke character begins to become the dominant flavor.
70-85% -Very heavy and pronounced smoke flavor.
Above 85% -This can really take over the style.
Another factor that effects the flavor is how you distill as a lot of the smoke flavor comes over in the tails so cuts become an important part. The time aging also effects the smoke flavor, the longer you barrel age the less smoke flavor that will come through.
Smoked malt, to other grain ratio:
25-50% -Noticeable smoke character but still light, and not overpowering.
50-70% -Pronounced smoke character begins to become the dominant flavor.
70-85% -Very heavy and pronounced smoke flavor.
Above 85% -This can really take over the style.
Another factor that effects the flavor is how you distill as a lot of the smoke flavor comes over in the tails so cuts become an important part. The time aging also effects the smoke flavor, the longer you barrel age the less smoke flavor that will come through.
Re: Smoked grains and malts
My favorite Scotches are Ardbeg and Lagavulin. I believe 100% of their mash bill is peated to levels above 50ppm. So incredibly smoky.
It's worth mentioning that the harsh impact this smoke has on newmake will change dramatically as it ages. Tar becomes licorice, ash becomes leather, musty earth becomes tobacco. The impact of how smoke components react with the various alcohols and other compounds in whisky can't be stated enough.
On the point of peat in particular, it's highly acidic, and when burned by the Scots is not actually completely dry. The smoke you will see from Scottish distilleries is very white and dense, showing a coarse combustion at best. These definitely make it much different than, say, oak, maple or cedar smoke when it comes to how it impacts the whisky.
I have used Douglas Fir before and was not impressed with the character. Like Der Wo said, it came across as rather meaty and rubbery.
It's worth mentioning that the harsh impact this smoke has on newmake will change dramatically as it ages. Tar becomes licorice, ash becomes leather, musty earth becomes tobacco. The impact of how smoke components react with the various alcohols and other compounds in whisky can't be stated enough.
On the point of peat in particular, it's highly acidic, and when burned by the Scots is not actually completely dry. The smoke you will see from Scottish distilleries is very white and dense, showing a coarse combustion at best. These definitely make it much different than, say, oak, maple or cedar smoke when it comes to how it impacts the whisky.
I have used Douglas Fir before and was not impressed with the character. Like Der Wo said, it came across as rather meaty and rubbery.
The still is not a liar. Mash and ferment quality is 99.9% of your performance.
Re: Smoked grains and malts
A picture from the Aussie BBQ forum. Many of these timbers are available world wide, and not all are Australian Native. BTW, the thread is titled "Australian Native Timber Matrix for Smoking".
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- Timber suitability - BBQ
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
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der wo
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Re: Smoked grains and malts
Yes. Peated malt is produced by firing wet peat over coal or dry peat.
I never malted and dried grains. But when I read, that a Pilsner malt needs 48h drying (low temp to safe the enzymes) and a distillers malt probably even a bit longer, and the for me difficult measurable humidity is a important factor, I gave up the idea. And similar ideas like to buy normal malted barley and add the smoke at home.
I know, many here malt and dry barley or even corn, so of course it seems to work.
But I often think about to use base malts and to smoke the mash water instead. Like with a hookah. To fire whatever and direct the steam in a fermenter bucket with water.
I don't have a garden, so I am not very keen on stinky experiments. With a hookah-water-smoker I could direct the spent steam direct into the chimney... it's not on my priority list.
As far as I know wood-smoked malt is always smoked with beech. But anyway a intersting attachment those wood flavors.
I never malted and dried grains. But when I read, that a Pilsner malt needs 48h drying (low temp to safe the enzymes) and a distillers malt probably even a bit longer, and the for me difficult measurable humidity is a important factor, I gave up the idea. And similar ideas like to buy normal malted barley and add the smoke at home.
I know, many here malt and dry barley or even corn, so of course it seems to work.
But I often think about to use base malts and to smoke the mash water instead. Like with a hookah. To fire whatever and direct the steam in a fermenter bucket with water.
I don't have a garden, so I am not very keen on stinky experiments. With a hookah-water-smoker I could direct the spent steam direct into the chimney... it's not on my priority list.
As far as I know wood-smoked malt is always smoked with beech. But anyway a intersting attachment those wood flavors.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
Re: Smoked grains and malts
What a timely post on this subject.
A couple of weeks ago, i took my bourban grain bill, 51% flaked corn, 29% malted barley, 20% wheat, poured it into the foil tins that you use to roast a turkey..., filled them up about 50% with the grains.. dry grains no liquid at all.
Then i put the grains in my Texas style off set meat smoker.. made a very small fire of oak chunks (apple size), wanted very little heat, with smoke on the grains. Stirred the grains every 20-30 minutes for 3 hours, in the oak smoke.. temp of the smoking chamber never got above 120 degrees.
Then I used those grains in my typical mash process... I could taste the oak flavor in the mash, pre ferment, and post ferment, but it was pretty light flavor....
That recipe has been run, I could taste the smoke flavor in the distillate as it came out...
2 gallons of it has been aging on oak for about a week now. I put a qty of 3- 1.5" x 1.5" x 8" ish white oak chunks that were toasted at 380 degrees for 3 hours, the. I torched one side of them. I also added a few french oak chips, toasted
Really surprised at how smooth it is, really dark in color already, thinking this my be my best ever..
It will continue to age
A couple of weeks ago, i took my bourban grain bill, 51% flaked corn, 29% malted barley, 20% wheat, poured it into the foil tins that you use to roast a turkey..., filled them up about 50% with the grains.. dry grains no liquid at all.
Then i put the grains in my Texas style off set meat smoker.. made a very small fire of oak chunks (apple size), wanted very little heat, with smoke on the grains. Stirred the grains every 20-30 minutes for 3 hours, in the oak smoke.. temp of the smoking chamber never got above 120 degrees.
Then I used those grains in my typical mash process... I could taste the oak flavor in the mash, pre ferment, and post ferment, but it was pretty light flavor....
That recipe has been run, I could taste the smoke flavor in the distillate as it came out...
2 gallons of it has been aging on oak for about a week now. I put a qty of 3- 1.5" x 1.5" x 8" ish white oak chunks that were toasted at 380 degrees for 3 hours, the. I torched one side of them. I also added a few french oak chips, toasted
Really surprised at how smooth it is, really dark in color already, thinking this my be my best ever..
It will continue to age
Re: Smoked grains and malts
So if the key is low temp smoking so as not to denature the malt enzymes, there is a device available for any grill called an A-maze-N smoker or for a Webber sold as the Smokenator both of which make cold smoking easier. Just took delivery of some barley malt and have a mind to try a more complex scotch.
Re: Smoked grains and malts
So if the key is low temp smoking so as not to denature the malt enzymes, there is a device available for any grill called an A-maze-N smoker or for a Webber sold as the Smokenator both of which make cold smoking easier. Just took delivery of some barley malt and have a mind to try a more complex scotch.
Re: Smoked grains and malts
The smoker in the photo produces cold smoke. Its a "Smoke Bloke", for meat and cheese smoking. The smoke is thick and white. I've been smoking 2kg grain in a 6kg total grain bill, so if it were to denature the enzymes it would not matter. Plenty more left in the mash.
It was running when the photo was taken - the absorption is almost complete. So, Der Wo, it might be you could run one without annoying neighbours.
In an early experiment I tried smoking grains in a tray as if they were steak. It was hard to tell where the smoke was going, and how much was getting absorbed vs drifting away. Thus the mods to the boiler - steam injection becomes smoke injection. Then I used 1 cup of chips figuring it would be over the top and could be used in small quantity for blending, but it was remarkably balanced. The tails were very oily, and the plan was to ditch them but following the comment about how smoke flavour integrates then they might find their way back in.
Having thought about the methanol question for a couple of days, its probably not an issue. Wood alcohol is made by heating wood in the absence of air. But smokers require air to burn the wood.
Does anyone else think that Laphroig put a bit of kelp in their smoke fire? It would give that iodine taste. Which then raises the question - what else could go in the smoking mix? Coriander seeds, juniper, now that would be an alt-whiskey, or an alt-gin. Is this a serious idea or trolling? You be the judge.
It was running when the photo was taken - the absorption is almost complete. So, Der Wo, it might be you could run one without annoying neighbours.
In an early experiment I tried smoking grains in a tray as if they were steak. It was hard to tell where the smoke was going, and how much was getting absorbed vs drifting away. Thus the mods to the boiler - steam injection becomes smoke injection. Then I used 1 cup of chips figuring it would be over the top and could be used in small quantity for blending, but it was remarkably balanced. The tails were very oily, and the plan was to ditch them but following the comment about how smoke flavour integrates then they might find their way back in.
Having thought about the methanol question for a couple of days, its probably not an issue. Wood alcohol is made by heating wood in the absence of air. But smokers require air to burn the wood.
Does anyone else think that Laphroig put a bit of kelp in their smoke fire? It would give that iodine taste. Which then raises the question - what else could go in the smoking mix? Coriander seeds, juniper, now that would be an alt-whiskey, or an alt-gin. Is this a serious idea or trolling? You be the judge.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Re: Smoked grains and malts
The kelp is already there in the form of peat. Their peat comes from shorefront property.
The still is not a liar. Mash and ferment quality is 99.9% of your performance.
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thecroweater
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Re: Smoked grains and malts
Cold smoking won't denature hot will.
As for Aussie natives some oils and resins are toxic how much would be in the smoke? Truth is prolly very little but eucalypt and malalukas produce very strong flavours great for smoked meats but maybe not for whiskey. I see there is no santelum on that list, sandlewood is non toxic high in sugars and reasonably robust. Its used in a lot of vermouth. I think it would be well suited to smoking grain as far as natives go.
As for Aussie natives some oils and resins are toxic how much would be in the smoke? Truth is prolly very little but eucalypt and malalukas produce very strong flavours great for smoked meats but maybe not for whiskey. I see there is no santelum on that list, sandlewood is non toxic high in sugars and reasonably robust. Its used in a lot of vermouth. I think it would be well suited to smoking grain as far as natives go.
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der wo
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Re: Smoked grains and malts
Yes, looks good. 
Smoke with herbs, hay, nuts, maroni, coffee...
and write us about.
Hundred new recipes lie dormant here.
Smoke with herbs, hay, nuts, maroni, coffee...
and write us about.
Hundred new recipes lie dormant here.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
Re: Smoked grains and malts
Der Wo, thats right, but somehow I baulk. Even without a smoker, we could be adding coffee, honey, molasses, herbs, spices, orange peel etc to our whiskey, but we don't. Or at least I don't. And its not clear why. Yes the Scots and the Americans make spiced whiskey, but I've never liked them. They seem over the top. Then there are gins like Bols that have distinct grainy taste. Its good, but its not a whiskey. The Germans showed how to make some of the best beer in the world with their 4 ingredients rule. Adding aromatic compounds is its own whole topic. An interesting question to chew on.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
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der wo
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Re: Smoked grains and malts
You cannot compare to add raw things and to add the smoke of them.
Stir a spoon fresh peat in a Glenfiddich. It will not taste like Laphroaig now.
Adding coffee or lemon peels to a whisky sounds for me not very interesting too. Spicing is boring. But the smoke of them I reeeally would like to try out.
Stir a spoon fresh peat in a Glenfiddich. It will not taste like Laphroaig now.
Adding coffee or lemon peels to a whisky sounds for me not very interesting too. Spicing is boring. But the smoke of them I reeeally would like to try out.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
Re: Smoked grains and malts
OK, sold. There is one or two on the shorter list, but when they are done. It will be coffee as its flavour is in the spectrum.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Re: Smoked grains and malts
Coffee batch is started. Smoked 2kg cracked grain with 60g coffee beans. They don't smolder very well so had to add some wood chips to get it to go. See attached pic. Maybe it was just that I did not have enough.
Mash today, strip midweek, finish next w'end, then ageing. But should have an idea what its like in about a week.
A batch done with angophora costata bark (a common, close relative of the Eucalypts) is now 1 mo old. Its pretty fantastic, even though I do suffer from home-alcohol bias (who, me?). Maybe I left too much tails in, but only time will tell ... if it survives.
Someone gave me some hickory ...
Mash today, strip midweek, finish next w'end, then ageing. But should have an idea what its like in about a week.
A batch done with angophora costata bark (a common, close relative of the Eucalypts) is now 1 mo old. Its pretty fantastic, even though I do suffer from home-alcohol bias (who, me?). Maybe I left too much tails in, but only time will tell ... if it survives.
Someone gave me some hickory ...
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- Coffee with some wood to help it smoke
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
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still_stirrin
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Re: Smoked grains and malts
Oh no, my doctor told me it is incurable.engunear wrote:...though I do suffer from home-alcohol bias (who, me?)...
I've used hickory successfully several times. It is more acrid than beech, but produces a good flavor and aroma in the beers. I think it can be described as "ham beer" like der wo noted. With the added coffee beans, it will give you a bit of roastiness too. I think you'll be happy with the outcome.engunear wrote:...Someone gave me some hickory ...
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Don Quixote
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Re: Smoked grains and malts
Awesome forum. I smoked some 2 Row Malt today over applewood chips for an applewood smoked vanilla porter I do every year. While I was smoking the grains I was wondering what would happen if I did a mash and distilled it. My buddy then mentioned aging the final run on applewood chips as well. I think I'm going to give it a shot.
Cheers,
Don Quixote
La Mancha, Spain
Don Quixote
La Mancha, Spain
Re: Smoked grains and malts
Hi Don Quixote, and an early post! Love the name and location. Not a bad book, either. Welcome.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Re: Smoked grains and malts
The coffee run is on. And with early tastes its hard to assess. But first impression is "burnt". Well duh. But when does a BBQ sausage go from tasty to burnt? When does pain turn to pleasure? Gross to desirable? (Mind right. Think cheese.)
Also, why do we accept coffee in a smoker, but baulk at it in the still pot? Why do we use terms like "fruity", "tobacco", "vanilla", "cinnamon" etc for distilled spirits, but resist adding said compounds to the pot? Angostura add spice to rum in small quantities, and I like it. I've successfully added trace amounts of vanilla to rum. Its not like some of those drinks you'd give an 18 year old who listens to Lady Gaga and wears fly spray, but it still has additives. Is it that when we add spices we don't know when to stop? And we just overdo it?
At this point I'm thinking that the timbers with lots of oils smoke better than coffee, but its probably premature to say that. More to come.
Re-reading der wo's early comment, all smoked grain beers are called hambone. I misunderstood his later comment to refer to hickory alone, as it is commonly used for ham and so the connection. Feeling better here because peat beer would also be hambone. So next experiment will be hickory, which is not novel but will be interesting to compare.
Also, why do we accept coffee in a smoker, but baulk at it in the still pot? Why do we use terms like "fruity", "tobacco", "vanilla", "cinnamon" etc for distilled spirits, but resist adding said compounds to the pot? Angostura add spice to rum in small quantities, and I like it. I've successfully added trace amounts of vanilla to rum. Its not like some of those drinks you'd give an 18 year old who listens to Lady Gaga and wears fly spray, but it still has additives. Is it that when we add spices we don't know when to stop? And we just overdo it?
At this point I'm thinking that the timbers with lots of oils smoke better than coffee, but its probably premature to say that. More to come.
Re-reading der wo's early comment, all smoked grain beers are called hambone. I misunderstood his later comment to refer to hickory alone, as it is commonly used for ham and so the connection. Feeling better here because peat beer would also be hambone. So next experiment will be hickory, which is not novel but will be interesting to compare.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Re: Smoked grains and malts
The small family owned distillery near me has had a coffee rum for nearly 3 years. Its one of their best sellers.
They just distill the rum and then rest it on coffee beans for a week.
They just distill the rum and then rest it on coffee beans for a week.
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The Baker
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Re: Smoked grains and malts
Do they grind the beans or leave them whole?Soulshine wrote:The small family owned distillery near me has had a coffee rum for nearly 3 years. Its one of their best sellers.
They just distill the rum and then rest it on coffee beans for a week.
Geoff
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Fills Jars Slowly
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Re: Smoked grains and malts
I just posted up my oak smoked malt whisky in a separate thread so as not to hijack this one. Here is the cold smoker setup I used. Details are in the thread. I like the smoked whisk(e)y!
Re: Smoked grains and malts
The coffee batch has been through twice and its very distinctive. I like it, but perhaps not everyone will, its hard to say. It is really a poitin at this point, and not many of my friends outside this forum have a taste for poitin.
There is some hickory smoked in process. Early tasting of this indicates not as pungent as the coffee or angophora bark. But its not complete first pass. Also no ham bone association.
Interesting comment about the coffee rum. Because we soak roasted wood in whiskey as a matter of course. Roasted coffee beans are not a very big stretch.
There is some hickory smoked in process. Early tasting of this indicates not as pungent as the coffee or angophora bark. But its not complete first pass. Also no ham bone association.
Interesting comment about the coffee rum. Because we soak roasted wood in whiskey as a matter of course. Roasted coffee beans are not a very big stretch.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Re: Smoked grains and malts
I had to google poitin, sounds really interesting.
Re: Smoked grains and malts
For a home distiller, poitin is worth tracking down. If you have ambitions of making a great 12yo, ... it takes 12 years. And if you screw it up ... damn ... 24 years later ... So poitin gives you some idea of what Irish whisky is like when just distilled. I've not found the Scottish equivalent at my bottle-O. I've seen moonshine but whether that is the same as young bourbon or a commercial version of backwoods whiskey I don't know. A bit off topic, but still. Maybe its worth a thread, what should a great whisky taste like when just distilled?
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
Re: Smoked grains and malts
Theres poitin recipies on this site. There just not labled as such.
I thought i was wrong once,
But then i found out i was mistaken.
Kill the women, and rape the men.
But then i found out i was mistaken.
Kill the women, and rape the men.
Re: Smoked grains and malts
I'm not sure but I was extremely happy with the first runs I distilled. After 2 weeks on Oak , I still think it tasted like 12 yr old Glenfiddich. That was a corn, barley and rye mash which I still use in same proportion. Each consecutive batch gets better flavor ,final alcohol content seems higher on the first cuts . My first heart cut last week I ran 138 proof for an entire quart. The next quart was 125, 3rd was 116 and the final I ran a pint from 90 down to ending at 40 so I got quite a bit out of it before I turn it off . Been using 30-40% backset to start the next batches sugar and steep the grain. Last 2 batches haven't pitched new yeast , just letting the bottom cake grow. Seems to be doing just fine.engunear wrote:For a home distiller, poitin is worth tracking down. If you have ambitions of making a great 12yo, ... it takes 12 years. And if you screw it up ... damn ... 24 years later ... So poitin gives you some idea of what Irish whisky is like when just distilled. I've not found the Scottish equivalent at my bottle-O. I've seen moonshine but whether that is the same as young bourbon or a commercial version of backwoods whiskey I don't know. A bit off topic, but still. Maybe its worth a thread, what should a great whisky taste like when just distilled?