Toasted malt flavors

[ShineRunner]

what kind of flavors come over in distillation of toasted malts? Specifically, chocolate malt and special B.

I got these ideas from a couple different threads by MCH, SOCD and Der Wo about using specialty grains. I changed a few other things in my process, including using a new barrel, but that's really about it. I made a bourbon with

67% corn ground to near meal
21% rye
9% red wheat
3% chocolate (Dingemann's)

And got a very rough smelling beer that I can't quite put a finger on. Perhaps rotten cabbage or septic tank, vomit maybe. Wife thinks it's a little vinegar, so perhaps kimchee is appropriate. I've seen some threads that say butyric acid or possibly ethyl mercaptan.

I distilled the first batch and thought it was too gross to even try to make cuts on, so I tossed it. Did some research and convinced myself it was that I pushed the yeast too hot. Changed to bakers yeast and made another 30 gallon batch, which Smells the same.

Here's the weird thing- I made 2 batches of a single malt type with Maris Otter, Munich malt, crystal 120 (3.6%) and special B (5%). Doing the spirit run right now and the distillate tastes very much similar. This was made in my beer setup and didn't touch any of the same equipment. Different fermenter, different techniques, off grain ferment. Used a new batch of US05 that previously made an IPA. It smelled delicious, but the distillate is harsh. Almost astringent, bitter, not good. Tolerable at this point, but not what I was hoping for.

So. What kind of flavor should I be expecting from these malts? I wouldn't expect them to be taking over the grain bill this much at all. I'm going to try to make some cuts on this after airing for at least a day, and hope that time and oak does it's thing.

Any thoughts?

SR

[shadylane]

Sounds like an infection.
What's your mash protocol ?

[ShineRunner]

I thought so as well, as far as the chocolate bourbon. But like I said, the complexing thing to me is that the distillate tastes very similar between the two types. Different equipment, different protocols. The single malt beer smelled great. Like a Belgian quad without the Belgian notes from the yeast.

Mash protocol for the single malt was 147F for 90 minutes. Batch sparged and Chilled by running through my CFC as it drained off the MLT (cooler). Drained into 20 gallon brute. Pitched washed us05 from previous IPA batch.

Bourbon protocol was steam 20 gal water and corn up to 185. Add sebstar and wrap up in blanket. Cook for 2 hours and let cool down to 150. Adjust ph with citric acid and add sebamyl. Stir and settled at 146. Wrap up and let mash for 2 hours. Take blanket off and add 10 gal ice/water to chill down to about 105. Let it sit overnight to cool the rest of the way. Pitch bakers yeast in the morning. I did add lactic acid from the LHBS at 0.5ml/gal.

I know adding ice is less than ideal, but I haven't had an issue in the past with using it. I figured it's less dangerous than letting it sit overnight at prime bacteria breeding temps.

SR

[ShineRunner]

I hadn't used lactic acid before and thought that might be the issue. I did an experiment with 2 5 gallon batches. I switched corn and used off the shelf cornmeal, same grain bill otherwise. 1 bucket had lactic acid and 1 bucket did not. Both smell good and no hint of funk. So could be the corn?

Different fermenter obviously, but same mash protocol, including ice.

Those are still fermenting, but they smell good so far. Much more what I was expecting. We will see what flavors come from them once I get to run them.

As for the fermenter, I was wondering about it as well. I made a 30 gal batch of gerber in it in between the 2 bourbon batches and it turned out great.

SR

[aircarbonarc]

Maybe the rye isn't liking the chocolate, try more wheat and 2 row and no rye. I've had issues with chocolate going a little bit funky when I've done a Corn, chocolate and 2row in the past. Darker malts seem to be a challenge there is a happy medium to be found so they don't go funky and overpowering, and then they need to be sat awhile till they are polite and have learned manners. Brown and dark Crystal malt can overpower corn liquor and will require time to relax.

[ShineRunner]

Maybe the rye isn't liking the chocolate, try more wheat and 2 row and no rye. I've had issues with chocolate going a little bit funky when I've done a Corn, chocolate and 2row in the past. Darker malts seem to be a challenge there is a happy medium to be found so they don't go funky and overpowering, and then they need to be sat awhile till they are polite and have learned manners. Brown and dark Crystal malt can overpower corn liquor and will require time to relax.

Possibly. The single malt doesn't have rye or chocolate in it, though. The distillates taste very similar, even though they have totally different grain bills.

SR

[BayouShine]

You should definitely tell the difference between the 2. When's the last time you scrubbed the inside of your boiler?

[ShineRunner]

Can't say that I ever have. But I made several runs of neutral gerber in between these batches. Those were all fine.

In fact, the spirit run on The bourbon was done on the small 5 gallon pot.

I still have this second 30 gallon batch to strip, so we'll see for sure if they taste similar. It smells so gross that I don't really even want to mess with it.

Thanks for checking in on it though..

SR

[BayouShine]

On the roasted rain bourbon I made this year, the ferments smelled like coffee wine. Definitely nothing gross. The distillate should have that typical sweet taste but with a coffee/roasted nutty taste and smell.

[ShineRunner]

On the roasted rain bourbon I made this year, the ferments smelled like coffee wine. Definitely nothing gross. The distillate should have that typical sweet taste but with a coffee/roasted nutty taste and smell.

The single malt ferment smelled good. Maybe it'll taste better tomorrow after it airs out some. It was hard to pick up any of those flavors you mentioned today.. I'll go from there and maybe step back some. Start with just corn and add 1 ingredient at a time to see where I get into trouble.

SR

[der wo]

And got a very rough smelling beer that I can't quite put a finger on. Perhaps rotten cabbage sulphur problems? or septic tank, vomit maybe. Infection probably Wife thinks it's a little vinegar, so perhaps kimchee is appropriate. Yes, infection I've seen some threads that say butyric acid or possibly ethyl mercaptan.

I distilled the first batch and thought it was too gross to even try to make cuts on, so I tossed it. Did some research and convinced myself it was that I pushed the yeast too hot. Perhaps the reason for the sulphur problem. Changed to bakers yeast and made another 30 gallon batch, which Smells the same. Perhaps you need more copper? I would try to add copper to the fermenter and or low wines.

Here's the weird thing- I made 2 batches of a single malt type with Maris Otter, Munich malt, crystal 120 (3.6%) and special B (5%). Doing the spirit run right now and the distillate tastes very much similar. This is what I would expect from such little amounts of speciality malts. But other members report a strong effect This was made in my beer setup and didn't touch any of the same equipment. Different fermenter, different techniques, off grain ferment. Used a new batch of US05 that previously made an IPA. It smelled delicious, but the distillate is harsh. Almost astringent, bitter, not good. Tolerable at this point, but not what I was hoping for. Too late tails cut? I had to cut earlier with my 100% speciality malts.

So. What kind of flavor should I be expecting from these malts? I wouldn't expect them to be taking over the grain bill this much at all. I'm going to try to make some cuts on this after airing for at least a day, and hope that time and oak does it's thing. I found with the sweetness of oak harsh burnt herbs flavors change to chocolate flavor.

[ShineRunner]

Thanks der wo. Your specialty malt thread gave me some warning about the strong flavors that come from these guys. However, I really thought at 5-8% it would just be a nice complement.

Anyways, I don't doubt that there is some kind of infection in the bourbon mashes. They smell terrible. That's why I did the experimental batches with different corn, lactic/no lactic acid. I just did a small batch of all corn with the same corn that I've been using. I'll have initial smell results on that soon.

To clarify, when I said that the harsh flavors are present in the single malt, I haven't made cuts yet. That flavor is present throughout the run. It's airing out now, so I'll see what it's like tonight.

SR

[der wo]

To clarify, when I said that the harsh flavors are present in the single malt, I haven't made cuts yet. That flavor is present throughout the run. It's airing out now, so I'll see what it's like tonight.

Sounds like a potstill single run.
What still? How many runs? abv of wash?

[ShineRunner]

Double run. Fast and furious on the first run. Had 10 gallons in keg boiler and 3-4 gallons in thumper. Thumper is used to be able to strip larger amounts. Right now, my setup is basically a clone of michigancornhusker's modular pot/thumper.

Second run was slow and low. Heads taken off at about 2L/hour and hearts at 3L/hour.

The single malt was around 7.5%. 1.058 down to 1.001.

SR

[der wo]

Everything sounds ok. Except the "harsh flavor". Unfortunately we can not send samples per internet...

[ShineRunner]

Would be nice if we could sample each other's products!

I know there are a few people on here that are local, but haven't gotten up the nerve to cross that bridge yet.

I had a thought that perhaps I am scorching the mash upon heating up for the stripping runs. I would think I would notice that though? I'm heating at probably 75-80% power on a 5500W ULWD element. No hint of scorch on the element either.

SR

[der wo]

Yes. Scorching produces harsh flavors. But if you don't see it on the element, I don't think you have this problem. But perhaps try out next stripping run a little slower.

Generally your Bourbon has not a sweet mellow grain bill. 21% rye, everything unmalted, and this chocolate malt.It's a harsh grain bill. Some will like it, some not I think.

For sure it will mellow with aging. But I know this is not the answer you are looking for. You are looking for something, what you could change next time.

[ShineRunner]

The rye and wheat are malted in the bourbon, should've clarified that. I made Jimbos wheated bourbon last year and wanted something a little more spicy. So last year I made this basic grain bill with plain 2 row instead of chocolate. It turned out fantastic. I thought the chocolate might add just a little something else that would be Interesting. We shall see.

Ultimately, yes, I'd like something to point at and say that this is the problem and I can change that for next time. Perhaps that exists, but it seems that I may have to just try to make my cuts and then see what happens. I have these other experimental batches that are pending that may help solve the mystery as well.

SR

[ShineRunner]

I let my jars air for 48 hours and made my way through the cuts. It did get better with airing, but it was very difficult to decide. I ended up with almost 2 gallons that I put on oak. We'll see how it turns out.

As for the possible (likely) infection of the chocolate rye, which I'm less than lovingly referring to kimchee rye at this point, I'm giving it another day or 2 to turn the corner and become pineapple. If not, I'll be dumping another batch. Not even going to try to run it.

My experimental batches have all turned out fine. Not sure what caused 2 consecutive batches to go bad. I'm going to try to simplify the grain bill and scale back up to see if anything gets funky again.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions. I'll report back on my results in 8-12 months.

SR

[shadylane]

I'm less than lovingly referring to kimchee rye at this point, I'm giving it another day or 2 to turn the corner and become pineapple. If not, I'll be dumping another batch. Not even going to try to run it.

Don't dump it

[ShineRunner]

Don't dump it

I didn't smell it yesterday and opened up the fermenter to check it this afternoon and it seems like it might be turning a corner. I'll give it another few days and smell again. The question is: how long do I wait before it starts to get funky, again?

SR