75+ efficiency?

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twisted_times
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75+ efficiency?

Post by twisted_times »

Good evening,

So I was reading many things on here about all grains, I am doing my second all grain mash today and have reached a point of do I chill the mash quick or let it keep going and hope for better efficiency.

Grain bill is
5lbs two row
4lbs rye malt
1lbs crystal 20 (only because this stuff smells tasty)
Cooked in exact same way as Jimbo's single malt AG in the tried and true.

Online calculator shows potential of reaching 1.051 SG at 75% effecincy. My hydrometer reading at 138F is 1.038 adjusted for temp to 1.051.

My question is do I let her sit a little longer in hopes for higher efficiency or cool it and pitch it?

Is there any adverse effects other than possible infections by cooling it slowly?

I am not going for anything super high SG. My first all grain mash started at 1.036 at 70F. So to reach 1.05 makes me happy.
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der wo
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

Post by der wo »

What is the total volume of the lautered mash?
Longer waiting helps only, if there is still living beta-amylase. If the mash was over 60°C for an hour or two, I don't think waiting helps. But it doesn't bother either.
Even if there will be some wild yeast working during the cooling down (I only had this one time, when the mash pot wasn't sealed well over night), your yeast will take over easily.


If you want more yield, try mashing with two waters. More effort but more yield.
Per 10l mash:

- 6.5l water at 60°C in an insulated vessel.
- Switch it off and throw in 2kg(7%abv) - 2.75kg(10%abv) crushed malt.
- Wait and stir occasionally minimum 2 hours.
- Filter and press the mash with a BIAB cloth.
- Now you have probably around 6l filtered mash. You want at the end 10l. So the second water has to be 10 - 6 = 4l. Heat the 4l water up to at least 90°C.
- Switch it off and throw the malt back into the vessel
- Wait and stir occasionally until the temp has dropped to 55°C or lower. You can remove the insulation to speed this up if you want.
- Filter and press it and mix it to the first mash.
- Close it and pitch yeast after temp has dropped enough. I also like to add nutrients.

The first low temp water protects the enzymes. The second high temp water solves all the sugar and starch out of the malt. The enzymes of the first water will convert the starches of the second water during cooling down and fermentation.
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

Post by twisted_times »

I ended up putting it outside to chill,

It is a 5.5 gallon mash,

I had to reread you suggestions for stronger. Make a 60c mash stir and steep for two hours filter grains, heat 90C+ mash with same grains, filter and combine both wash to get 10L?

I do ferment on the grain so straining would be a step I would skip. Would this still work the same?

I am very interested because I think the heat retention from adding half the hot water may help me, my first batch is low due to me not following directions and not wrapping my fermenter during this period,

this batch was wrapped in quilts and blankets and sitting by the heater.

This batch is going to go thru with 1.048-1.050 SG as that is where she ended up.
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

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Are you adding beta in the 60c water and alpha in the 90c? Or the enzymes in the malted grains from the start?
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

Post by der wo »

Do you distill on the grain too?
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

Post by der wo »

twisted_times wrote:I had to reread you suggestions for stronger. Make a 60c mash stir and steep for two hours filter grains, heat 90C+ mash with same grains, filter and combine both wash to get 10L? Yes. But not a 60°C and 90+°C mash, but a 60 and 90 water! This is a important difference.

I do ferment on the grain so straining would be a step I would skip. Would this still work the same? This methods works only with straining. But also on the grain if you want. You would simply not strain the second water but pour the second mash incl. grains into the first after cooling down. Do you distill on the grain too? If not, you don't skip, you delay this step. And don't have the option of two waters/sparging. Filtering before fermentation is more efficient than filtering after fermentation, if you work with two waters or sparging.
Are you adding beta in the 60c water and alpha in the 90c? Or the enzymes in the malted grains from the start? The recipe is without adding enzymes except the malt.
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

Post by twisted_times »

@Der wo
I do not distill on the grain, after fermentation has ceased I rack into my carboys and let it clear a bit, I then add hot water and sugar for a sugar wash straight back into the fermentor with the used grains.
( quick edit). I have only done all grain once and this is what I did in hopes of it working out.


I have not added any enzymes to the mash, I used malted grains miled by the brew shop and was told that enzymes were not really needed as long as they are malted. If it gets stalled I will have to check my ph and adjust but am hoping there are enough nutrients and stable ph to push her thru without adding anything to it.
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

Post by der wo »

If you want to write about your success or failure after the stripping, don't forget to take a FG reading before. Or strip to 100°C.
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

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Well everything was going great and had my gravity readings on this down to 1.004 from 1.051, ended up taking the ole lady to the hospital and had a little girl, got home and she was still bubbling, BUT it had a dry looking white spider webish substance on the top of the mash, Had to move all my ferments to the garage due to being evicted from the kitchen, let it set while doing newborn baby needs. Continued to ferment until it hit 1.000 , if it was just a smidge lower I could not tell for sure. Now almost two weeks later the spider webish white stuff seemed to have diluted out and almost smelled sweet again, Did some reading it appears it was a lacto infection from the best of my guessing abilities, hydrometer still reads 1.000, Stripped it out got about 1.5-1.75 gallons of low wines, around 45% abv averaged, Doing spirit run now, have about a quart of definite heads and just getting into some hearts, my still is very slow been at it awhile, just getting out of the heads at 72%abv, For looking rank and nasty in the fermenter it taste pretty good for just coming out of the pipe (Diluted with water). I am not expecting to get a whole lot more out of the hearts, I am going to guess maybe another quart? then will turn up the heat strip the tails and run em all again in then next mash.
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

Post by der wo »

Gratulations for you baby!

For me the numbers look like you have more important things to do just right now:
From 1051 to 1000 is 6.9%. 5.5gal 6.9% have 0.38gal alcohol. This is the maximum you can get after stripping. You got 1.75gal 45% = 0.79gal. More than twice. Perhaps we should rename the thread in "150+ efficiency"?
45 proof instead of 45% abv?
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

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Yes Der wo. You are correct. My low wines were 45 proof not abv. Lol it is late and was just trying to get thru that run before I lost it. Finished heart cut at 1.5 quarts of 120 proof/ 60 % ABV.
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

Post by der wo »

Then all in all it sounds realistic for me.
The mashing yield is not perfect, but all right.
The hearts sound a bit like a relative late tails cut IMO. A bit too much and too low abv. But only a bit, not really unrealistic. You will see after aging, if there is a bit tailsy taste or not.
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

Post by frunobulax »

75% is not that bad. Those calculators assume you are lautering (Straining) and boiling your wort. When I calculate a recipe, I use beersmith and put boil time to 0.
I think what der wo is describing is a batch sparge. Using a extra water to get the rest of the sugars off the grain.
der wo, instead of using 90 c water try 16 c (cold ground water temp water). It will help get you down to pitching temp faster and Hot water has no real advantage being your not going to boil it, and you're not really concerned with halting enzymatic activity for a whiskey beer. The cold water won't' affect your efficiency at all. I've cold water sparged ALOT of whiskey beers.
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

Post by der wo »

Interesting new thoughts for me, frunobulax.

Perhaps you are right, but here a few arguments against:

- Do I need not even once a high temp to gelatinize and solve all starches? If I use a first water with only 60°C, so the mashing temp is below 55°C, perhaps I need the second water hot?

- All malt whisky distilleries use more than one water. And all use the next water hotter than the water before. Noone is sparging with cold water. Why? If cold water would be time or energy efficient and they would get a similar yield, they would have changed their process perhaps 100 years ago.

- I don't want to get fast down to pitching temp. I want to hold a temp where the enzymes survive and work for a long time. 50-55°C. Here the hot second water helps.

I know, it's only arguments, not proofs.
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

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Interesting. I always assumed that sparge water should be hot because sugar dissolves better in hot water, but I've never tested that assumption. And the sugar is already dissolved, isn't it? Now I want to split a batch, try it both ways, and compare the resulting SGs. Wouldn't you know, I just put down a bourbon mash last night, so it will be a while before I do another one. Maybe I'll bump it up some in the rotation. Now have to quantify it or it will bug me every time I sparge for the rest of my life. It's my own personal form of OCD. Anybody else want to attach some numbers to the assumption?
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

Post by frunobulax »

Der wo, I believe distilleries boil their wort, like breweries, so why use cold water only to reheat it? Making beer ya sparge with hot water, under 170°, (76c), because higher than that it extracts tannins from the grain.
Skow, you are correct. The sugars are already dissolved, that's why it works. A buddy and I have a 1 bbl + home brew set up, and we made many whiskey batches with over 100 pounds of grain
and cold water sparged with no ill effects. We usually get over 80% efficiency. Definitely try it.
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

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frunobulax wrote:Der wo, I believe distilleries boil their wort, like breweries, so why use cold water only to reheat it? Making beer ya sparge with hot water, under 170°, (76c), because higher than that it extracts tannins from the grain.
Skow, you are correct. The sugars are already dissolved, that's why it works. A buddy and I have a 1 bbl + home brew set up, and we made many whiskey batches with over 100 pounds of grain
and cold water sparged with no ill effects. We usually get over 80% efficiency. Definitely try it.
No, they don't boil it. They have a first water at for example 65°C, lauter, a second with 80°C, lauter, mix the two mashes, that's all. No boiling. And then they use a very hot (90°C) third water, which will be the first water of the next mash.
It looks like tannin extraction is only a problem with beer.
80% efficiency? 80% of the starches are solved, more or less converted and get into the mash or 80% get fermented to alcohol? Brewers efficiency is not distillers efficiency.
For me it sounds that you write like a brewer, not like a distiller. Never overthought all the brewer habits.
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

Post by frunobulax »

Maybe they use the very hot water instead of boiling to keep from getting an infection is my guess.
When I say 80% efficiency, what I mean is I extracted 80% of the available sugars from the grain, and into the fermenter.
And yes, I've been homebrewing over 25 years and when it comes to stilling, a lot of rules get broken. lol
(Edit.. We just ordered 2 sacks of heavy peated malt for a scotch, can't wait!)
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

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frunobulax wrote:Maybe they use the very hot water instead of boiling to keep from getting an infection is my guess.
But when the last hot water is used for the first water of the next mash it is already cooled down to 65°C. The first sparge is never over 60°C. So there is still a lot enzyme activity and also bacterial activity in the mash.
The three or four waters method leads to a extreme perfect brewers efficiency (because the remaining water in the draff is very low in sugar), the remaining enzyme activity leads to a very low FG (distillers efficiency).

Edit: And the feints rerunning system gets all alcohol into the barrel in the end.
All in all Malt Whisky distilleries get almost all starch converted to alcohol into the barrel.
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

Post by frunobulax »

Ahh, I just googled the process you're talking about. Yes they are using the last water to start the next mash. I've saved the final runnings to start the next mash for a few extra gravity points, but it's not usually feasible. 'cause we're not continually mashing and stilling.
Hope the OP doesn't mind our discussion.
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

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The distilleries with four waters use the last two waters for the next mash normally. So almost all water they use for the current mash is already a bit sweet from the previous batch. Bruichladdichs first two waters are total 37tl, the second two waters are total 34tl.
Would they use three waters for the current mash, the SG would be too diluted probably.
Yes, it's not really feasible for us. I simply use two waters, the second almost the same amount like the first one.
Yes, off-topic. But the OP's issue is already finished I think. So only the Mods get angry a bit... :D
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

Post by bilgriss »

I believe it was Denny Conn who published a series of tests sparging with cold or hot water, measuring efficiency. The difference was negligible. The main reasons for hot sparging are sanitization, and for beer brewers, halting enzyme activity and maintaining temperature to make it easier to boil after collecting all the runnings. If you want to keep the grain at mash temperature longer, just mash longer.
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

Post by der wo »

bilgriss wrote:If you want to keep the grain at mash temperature longer, just mash longer.
This doesn't work such easy with a more than one water procedure. Of course I can mash the first water longer. But mashing the second water longer is useless, because there are no or only few living enzymes in it. When I want to convert the starches of the second water, I have to mix it to the first water with the living enzymes before. And then I can successfully mash longer. But when the second water was cold, I would have to heat the mix up to somwhere 55°C. Not when the second water was hot.
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Re: 75+ efficiency?

Post by der wo »

Perhaps the Malt Whisky producers use a hot temp for the last water because:

- The last water should be sanitized, that it doesn't get infected in the lag time before it is used for the next mash.
- If it is hot, after the lautering it has just the right temp for the first sparge of the next batch. And heating pure water is easy. If they would use cold water, they would have to heat up this thin mash to 65°C for using it for the next mash. They prefer heating water to 90°C than heating a thin mash to 65°C.
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