Gap in cuts

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OtisT
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Gap in cuts

Post by OtisT »

Howdy! I just completed stillin an AG bourbon ( honey bear Bourbon with oats) and followed that with a sugar head ferment and distillation on those grains. I collect my spirit runs in at least 20 containers, so less than 5% of the total yield in any one jar. With both the AG and the SH, there is one jar in the middle of my lower hearts that smells way off for where it is in the sequence. The two jars after that one smell good before I make my cut. Maybe this off smelling jar will be OK with time and oak, but I found this odd. My friend came to the same opinion independently. On the first run I thought maybe i got a jar out of order, however unlikely but possible. When it happened again I figured I would reach out and see if anyone else experiences this.

Does anyone else get a strong, different, smell in a small fraction of their hearts, and if so any theories on what it is?

Thanks in advance. Otis
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by still_stirrin »

OtisT wrote:...Does anyone else get a strong, different, smell in a small fraction of their hearts, and if so any theories on what it is?
Hmmmm, sounds odd.

My middle hearts have very little aroma, even when collecting from the potstill. Late hearts will start to smell a little "husky", like the onset of fusel carryover. But not too significantly until you get later into the tails. With my VM reflux column, it all is clean until it stops producing as the proof drops rapidly. The VM is good at compressing the tails to the very end of the run.

Perhaps you just picked a smelly jar (not properly cleaned) to collect in...do you use the same jars over and over? And are they numbered so you use them in the same sequence? I'm scratching at straws here...
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by der wo »

Did you distill a single run? Potstil? Or a double run?

The "normal" protocol is fores, heads, hearts, tails. But there are a few examples with opinions like that after the tails there is a usable fraction or within the tails is a usable fraction:

Somewhere here when I remember right: http://slivovice.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

And here: homedistiller.org/forum/download/file.php?id=50911
At the beginning of the evaporation, the ascending alcoholic vapors are totally refluxed back to the column, for a time which is determined largely by the particular characteristics which it is desired to impart to the end product: it has been found that 1 to 2 hours of refluxing is appropriate in most cases. This refluxing increases the esterification and also bauses the accumulation of low-boiling-point constituents at the top plates of the column, so that when the “head products” are permitted to separate, all of these products will pass off with a minimum total volume of distillate. Total refluxing is then terminated and the distillation proper begun. At the beginning of the separatory distillation, the “head products” should be taken off for an amount of these “foreshots” which is determined experimentally for each individual case and based on practice and experience: generally speaking and for orientation of the inexperienced in practice, from 0.5 to 1.0 percent of the total volume of the distilling mash should be separated as “head products.” After these “head products” are collected, distillation of the “body” or main products is continued, while receiving these into a different container. When the distillation proof falls to an apparent degree of around 100, the distillate (comprised of the so called fusel oil, and probably some sulfur compounds and organic volatile bodies probably of a xanthine composition; all having a very bad odor) is again led into the “head products” receiver until a new apparent proof of about 75 degrees is registered at the test gauge. At this point, the distillate is again led into the main products receiving tank until the end of the distillation period.
This body of main products, comprised of the Second and fourth fractions, will average from 130 to 150 proof, depending on the original concentration of alcohol in the beer, the total time of refluxing given before starting the distillation proper, and the rate of distillation maintained during the Operation.

Those portions of distillate which have been collected in the “head products” receiver, being the first and third fractions, may amount to about 10 to 15 percent of the total alcoholic liquors distilled. They may be stored in special receivers until enough has been accumulated to permit a separate further distillation. When so collected, they are first diluted to an alcoholic concentration of about 20 percent by volume, and then the foregoing distillation procedure is again effected thereon, with the exception that in thisrun the products separated from the body of main products, i. e., the first and third fractions are discarded. This second-run distillate provides a rum which does not have the same high quality as the main body, but constitutes a rum of good taste and aroma for sale at a relatively low price.
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by OtisT »

still_stirrin wrote:
OtisT wrote:...Does anyone else get a strong, different, smell in a small fraction of their hearts, and if so any theories on what it is?
Hmmmm, sounds odd.

Perhaps you just picked a smelly jar (not properly cleaned) to collect in...do you use the same jars over and over? And are they numbered so you use them in the same sequence? I'm scratching at straws here...
ss
Could be a jar, though happening on both spirit runs, not likely. I am leaning toward the grain profile or process, but not sure yet. Der Wo asked about process, so I will answer on his thread. Thanks.
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by der wo »

Reading again your post, I see now you did spirit runs.

Here was a little discussion about slivovice.org:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 38&t=62214
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by OtisT »

der wo wrote:Did you distill a single run? Potstil? Or a double run?

The "normal" protocol is fores, heads, hearts, tails. But there are a few examples with opinions like that after the tails there is a usable fraction or within the tails is a usable fraction:

Somewhere here when I remember right: http://slivovice.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

And here: homedistiller.org/forum/download/file.php?id=50911
Thanks der wo. I will read those threads today. As for the process, both ferments were first stripped then went through a spirit run. For the spirit run, I was using my fractioning still with no packing and low reflux, about a 1:1. Took it off slowly. I checked my logs and there were no equipment changes or adjustments during the collections in that range.

In both cases, the off smell was just as temps start to increase slightly but before I want to make a cut, with one or two jars following the off one before I make a cut. For the AG, the off jar was 55-60% of my total run volume. The 60-65% jar smelled good, the 65-70% jar was on the fence ( but did not quite make the cut) and jar 70-75% was clearly out. If this is finding A usable fraction within the tails, as you mention above, my hearts are very small. I'm good with that.

I'm new to cutting whiskey, and am finding this learning through experimentation and research to be quite enjoyable. Can't tell you how many times I go through the product jars alone and with others before making cuts, each time picking up new smells and tastes to note. After doing so much fractioning before getting into pot stilling all grains, it is taking time understanding what smells are good (or good enough), because when I was fractioning if I smelled any of this stuff it was not good.

I'm doing another AG ferment now, and this next time I plan to remove the reflux entirely after I remove the fores.

Thanks for your support. :)
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by OtisT »

I brought in a ringer. I had a friend of mine who is a pro distiller help with the cuts. She also noted the difference in that jar, could not explain it, but in the end it made the cut. :-)

I have another batch of HBB fermenting and will be looking to see if this bump in the profile shows up again. Can't wait to find out. :-).
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by Kareltje »

You said each jar got about 5 % of the total amount and one of them in the middle of the heart was off taste.
I take jars of at least 100 ml because my alcoholmeter needs that to float. In the beginning of a spirit run I use a few, say 3 of 4, of these samples. Then I take some larger samples, say 500, 100, 500 and when temperature rises to 90 degr C I use 100 ml samples again.
I knew I miss the good tastes in the tails, but now you tell me I get bad tastes in the middle?
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by HDNB »

sounds completely normal to me. what you call the middle of the hearts is what i call the first jar of tails.

i run a lot of COB and the first tails jar is always cut, the second almost always goes in, in it's entirety. portions of 3rd, 4th but often not much after that.

that first jar of tails is bitter and astringent. the following may be watery, but they are sweet and have flavour.
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by Kareltje »

HDNB wrote:sounds completely normal to me. what you call the middle of the hearts is what i call the first jar of tails.

i run a lot of COB and the first tails jar is always cut, the second almost always goes in, in it's entirety. portions of 3rd, 4th but often not much after that.

that first jar of tails is bitter and astringent. the following may be watery, but they are sweet and have flavour.
What do you mean: you add a portion of a tails jar to your heart? Why is that?

I am learning to make good cuts by taste and smell, so I need all information I can get.
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

Kareltje wrote:
HDNB wrote:sounds completely normal to me. what you call the middle of the hearts is what i call the first jar of tails.

i run a lot of COB and the first tails jar is always cut, the second almost always goes in, in it's entirety. portions of 3rd, 4th but often not much after that.

that first jar of tails is bitter and astringent. the following may be watery, but they are sweet and have flavour.
What do you mean: you add a portion of a tails jar to your heart? Why is that?

I am learning to make good cuts by taste and smell, so I need all information I can get.
Once you learn to cut, you realize your still not done learning :lolno: Now it's time for cuts 202: blending. That's the real art.

In the advanced cuts class, Blending, you make fun of your old self that struggled to draw the line to make sure you got all the heads and tails out. Because now, you put a little bit back in to give the whiskey, rum, or brandy (usually the flavored spirits) its character. Not enough to ruin it, but enough to capture the essence in aging. This course is completely self instructed and student led. Even the teacher can't tell you the right one. And often, a whole jar may be too much.

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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by HDNB »

Kareltje wrote:
HDNB wrote:sounds completely normal to me. what you call the middle of the hearts is what i call the first jar of tails.

i run a lot of COB and the first tails jar is always cut, the second almost always goes in, in it's entirety. portions of 3rd, 4th but often not much after that.

that first jar of tails is bitter and astringent. the following may be watery, but they are sweet and have flavour.
What do you mean: you add a portion of a tails jar to your heart? Why is that?

I am learning to make good cuts by taste and smell, so I need all information I can get.
whaddya mean whaddaimean?

On my COB recipe: fores smell of acetate/acetone. Heads taste like juicy fruit gum when that taste goes and the smell of grassy comes on i'm in hearts. the first jar of tails is bitter and astringent then it goes sweet and watery and then eventually wet dog and done.

so i'm using a few markers and senses for what i perceive as my cuts. the indicators are different of different recipes, sometimes i stick my beak in a glass and exhale to see if the eyes burn, a sure sign of heads. Covered jars with fruit flies will show relative strength of heads based on how many flies. I proof my cuts to 40 and 20%ABV to look for cloudiness and it really opens the scent and taste up. shiny oils and cloudiness tell the tail(s)

lots of different things, but what i did describe, selecting jar 2 and parts of 3 and 4 of tails is as SCD notes, more of my blending ideas on COB as a difference to cuts on COB.
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by HDNB »

There's a difference in what i call "barrel cuts" which is to say a blend of the different fractions intended for aging and in White dawg cuts, which to me is a pure heart cut.
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by shadylane »

OtisT wrote:there is one jar in the middle of my lower hearts that smells way off for where it is in the sequence. The two jars after that one smell good before I make my cut.
Just my drunken opinion :lol:
Gaps in the cuts is a normal thing.
Save the gaps, given time there might be something good in there
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by OtisT »

HDNB wrote:sounds completely normal to me. what you call the middle of the hearts is what i call the first jar of tails.

i run a lot of COB and the first tails jar is always cut, the second almost always goes in, in it's entirety. portions of 3rd, 4th but often not much after that.

that first jar of tails is bitter and astringent. the following may be watery, but they are sweet and have flavour.
This sounds like what I have found, though I ended up putting that first tails jar into the cut along with a subsequent jar. I have another batch of HBB done fermenting. I keep detailed ferment and distillation run notes, so I think I will switch to smaller collections for that fraction of the run and see how well I can isolate those first bitter notes of the tails. ( I love this shit! )

Thanks again for the feedback.
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by OtisT »

shadylane wrote:
OtisT wrote:there is one jar in the middle of my lower hearts that smells way off for where it is in the sequence. The two jars after that one smell good before I make my cut.
Just my drunken opinion :lol:
Gaps in the cuts is a normal thing.
Save the gaps, given time there might be something good in there
I'm curious. By saving the gaps are you saying you save just these jars alone, but not blend them into the cut? Is your time "airing time", or just set aside, waiting for a blend where you need some of that early tails funk to blend in? I could imagain this would be good to add to a rum blend. Thanks for the advice. :-)
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Re: Gap in cuts

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OtisT wrote: In both cases, the off smell was just as temps start to increase slightly but before I want to make a cut, with one or two jars following the off one before I make a cut. For the AG, the off jar was 55-60% of my total run volume. The 60-65% jar smelled good, the 65-70% jar was on the fence ( but did not quite make the cut) and jar 70-75% was clearly out. If this is finding A usable fraction within the tails, as you mention above, my hearts are very small. I'm good with that.
That's a little confusing. It would help if you could identify the jars by their place in line. And the volume.
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by OtisT »

skow69 wrote:
OtisT wrote: In both cases, the off smell was just as temps start to increase slightly but before I want to make a cut, with one or two jars following the off one before I make a cut. For the AG, the off jar was 55-60% of my total run volume. The 60-65% jar smelled good, the 65-70% jar was on the fence ( but did not quite make the cut) and jar 70-75% was clearly out. If this is finding A usable fraction within the tails, as you mention above, my hearts are very small. I'm good with that.
That's a little confusing. It would help if you could identify the jars by their place in line. And the volume.
Sorry to confuse. My use of % was indicating progress of product collection through the run. So, with 20 jars collected after tossing the first 150ml, each jar contains 5% of the total run volume. I collected 400m in each jar. I stopped the run when my collection was down to 20% abv, so I got most of it (~5% abv remaining in the boiler.). The off smell was in jar 12 of the run (56-60% of my total collection). I liked jar 13 (60-64% of the total collection. volume). Did this help, or hurt? ;-).
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by still_stirrin »

OtisT wrote:...My use of % was indicating progress of product collection through the run...Did this help, or hurt?
Your description of "what you meant" helps to understand better.

But be advised that percent (%) has a universal meaning in this hobby, ie - %ABV, so it will always confuse some of the membership if used in a different context (not everybody reads the threads from start to finish, so they would misinterpret your meaning). Referring to the jars, like..."jar 11 of 20" will give us a clear understanding of what you're trying to relate and make the thread sustain through time (for future readers to learn from).

This is not intended to "police" the forum, rather help you (and other new members) understand better the jargon of the hobby (at least on this forum).
ss
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by OtisT »

still_stirrin wrote:
This is not intended to "police" the forum, rather help you (and other new members) understand better the jargon of the hobby (at least on this forum).
ss
Thanks Still. I realized my mistake when that last question came up. I'll work on being more clear. I truly appreciate the community and all the support from this site. Otis
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by Pikey »

You weren't to know Otis - good for us all to be talking the same language tho' as far as possible :lol:
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by shadylane »

OtisT wrote:
shadylane wrote:
OtisT wrote:there is one jar in the middle of my lower hearts that smells way off for where it is in the sequence. The two jars after that one smell good before I make my cut.
Just my drunken opinion :lol:
Gaps in the cuts is a normal thing.
Save the gaps, given time there might be something good in there
I'm curious. By saving the gaps are you saying you save just these jars alone, but not blend them into the cut? Is your time "airing time", or just set aside, waiting for a blend where you need some of that early tails funk to blend in? I could imagain this would be good to add to a rum blend. Thanks for the advice. :-)
Someone once said there's many ways to skin the cat :lol:
I was suggesting saving a sample of what doesn't taste good.
And letting it age/air for a while, to see what it would have tasted like in the future.
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Re: Gap in cuts

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OtisT wrote:Sorry to confuse. My use of % was indicating progress of product collection through the run. So, with 20 jars collected after tossing the first 150ml, each jar contains 5% of the total run volume. I collected 400m in each jar. I stopped the run when my collection was down to 20% abv, so I got most of it (~5% abv remaining in the boiler.). The off smell was in jar 12 of the run (56-60% of my total collection). I liked jar 13 (60-64% of the total collection. volume). Did this help, or hurt? ;-).
Huh! So do I understand that like jars 9,10, and 11 were hearts, then you rejected 12 and accepted 13? How about 14 and 15? When would you say the tails showed up?
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by OtisT »

skow69 wrote:
OtisT wrote:Sorry to confuse. My use of % was indicating progress of product collection through the run. So, with 20 jars collected after tossing the first 150ml, each jar contains 5% of the total run volume. I collected 400m in each jar. I stopped the run when my collection was down to 20% abv, so I got most of it (~5% abv remaining in the boiler.). The off smell was in jar 12 of the run (56-60% of my total collection). I liked jar 13 (60-64% of the total collection. volume). Did this help, or hurt? ;-).
Huh! So do I understand that like jars 9,10, and 11 were hearts, then you rejected 12 and accepted 13? How about 14 and 15? When would you say the tails showed up?
You have it very close. In the end, I kept 12, but it was definitely way different from what was around it. I wanted it out, but my two friends voted yes so I went with the concensus. I also kept 13 and 14 which we had no issues with. One of us wanted to keep 15, but me and my pro friend voted no, so it went to feints.

As for when tails showed up I don't quite know how to answer that, as it seems to me like the dividing line between hearts and tails is a subjective thing. I'm new to AG cuts, and to me each run is a rainbow of different smells and tastes from jar to jar. At this stage of my cuts "career" I'm just focused on what does and does not offend me in smell and taste. I take good notes on each batch so when all these aging jars of HBB I have stacking up get older, I'll know how well I did. :D
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Re: Gap in cuts

Post by OtisT »

shadylane wrote: Someone once said there's many ways to skin the cat :lol:
I was suggesting saving a sample of what doesn't taste good.
And letting it age/air for a while, to see what it would have tasted like in the future.
That would have been smart of me to do, but that ship has sailed. ;-).

I do have another two fermenters full of HBB settling now, and I will be looking for that fraction of the run again. Me thinks I will take your advice then, if I am successful in isolating that funkey smelling fraction again.

Thanks again for the advice.
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