Best grain for gin

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mburke78
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Best grain for gin

Post by mburke78 »

Hi I am doing research before I attempt to start to distil but I wanted to know for all the gin lovers out there what is the best grain for a mash as there are loads. Whatever grain I choose does it need to be crushed to release the enzymes or do you leave it whole?

I was going to go with oats as they are easy to get hold of and cheap in the UK but was starting to lean towards wheat. Anyone shine a light on what they use and possible why. Also am I right in thinking I still need to add sugar for the yeast?

Thanks in advance
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bilgriss
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by bilgriss »

Hi there.

I am no expert on gin, but your post still makes me think I can give you some advice.
Go here - http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=46 and read everything until you are confident it makes sense.

Then read through this: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=52975 following all the links, paying special attention to the safety related ones.

Then when you are done getting questions answered from those areas, start researching a good recipe. The nature of your questions tell me you need to address that basics first. Please understand that my first concern is your safety. It won't take all that long to get up to speed for a first effort, and you'll be making good stuff before you know it!
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by thecroweater »

Oats would be a fine choice then maybe barley over wheat. You want something clean and smooth over especially tasty as you will want to remove most of the flavour. Wheat will work, guys made vodka and neutral out of flour, anything that will strip fairly neutral will work so not molasses, not rye and not anything with a particularly robust flavour unless you think it will add to your final product.
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dieselduo
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by dieselduo »

+ 1 on the oats
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by still_stirrin »

mburke78 wrote:...I wanted to know for all the gin lovers out there what is the best grain for a mash...does it need to be crushed to release the enzymes or do you leave it whole?
Crushed???

Of course. Grains with husks will encapsulate the grain, so you've got to make the starches available to enzymes to convert to fermentable sugars. Crushing the grains is a necessary part of that process.

However, if you're planning to use "flaked" grains, or even "hot rolled" grains, like you get at the grocery store, such as with Quick Oats (as you use to make oatmeal for breakfast), those have already been gelatinized and rolled into flakes. So, you just add the flakes to your mash and mash as you do your your beers, observing the saccharafication rests like normal (I do hope you know how to do all-grain mashes for making beers).
mburke78 wrote:...I was going to go with oats as they are easy to get hold of and cheap in the UK but was starting to lean towards wheat. Anyone shine a light on what they use and possible why.
You can use oats...but it isn't a "base malt". You should also plan for some barley malt, especially for the enzymatic power it provides. Also, the barley flavor is a very nice complement to both of the cereal grains: oats and wheat.
mburke78 wrote:...Also am I right in thinking I still need to add sugar for the yeast?
Nope, not if you want to make the "best liquor".

Sugar is a compromise. It's an easy fermentable, but not the best for flavor. So, your assumption is "distorted". If you're trying for the "easy way out", then sugar can be supplemented in the ferment. Otherwise, if you want the best product (flavor-wise), then the grains are the way to go. But, it is more effort....for which you WILL be rewarded!
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Why go to all the trouble of making a grain mash to make Gin.
Running something like Birdwatchers or Goo's Kale wash through a good reflux still will give you the quality base spirit your going to need.
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by mburke78 »

Cheers for all the advice. Is there a kinda ratio to use. The turbo yeast I have says it makes 22 litres and I have a 10 litre still and 10 litre pan to boil the oats and barley (thanks for the barley tip) with. I was going to use 500g of grains (not sure if this is enough or too much for 10 litres) and get to a temperature to 150 degrees and them simmer for 1 hour and them cool to about 90 degrees and use half the turbo yeast and leave for 7 days. I want to make small batches as I want to experiment with botanicals.

In a sense to sum up the above how do you know the quantities and cooking times and temperatures. I got most of the above roughly from watch YouTube and some reading.
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by mburke78 »

bilgriss wrote:Hi there.

I am no expert on gin, but your post still makes me think I can give you some advice.
Go here - http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=46 and read everything until you are confident it makes sense.

Then read through this: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=52975 following all the links, paying special attention to the safety related ones.

Then when you are done getting questions answered from those areas, start researching a good recipe. The nature of your questions tell me you need to address that basics first. Please understand that my first concern is your safety. It won't take all that long to get up to speed for a first effort, and you'll be making good stuff before you know it!
I really appreciate the links and advice and will certainly be having a look through. I 100% agree that safety is paramount. I was early into looking into this project going to use a gas bottle I had to distil with and then looked into the dangers of using gas and bought a cooking plate instead.
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by still_stirrin »

mburke78 wrote:....The turbo yeast I have....
:thumbdown:
Not the best yeast for a neutral base for gins. And not the best yeast to use with grains.

So, I’m going to suggest stopping at the point you’re at and go read for a while. You’ll be time and money ahead if you do. Otherwise, you’ll be mystified and frustrated (because you don’t know what you’re doing) and you’ll end up making a crappy spirit.

Reading is not only mandatory...it’s essential.
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by NZChris »

mburke78 wrote:I was early into looking into this project going to use a gas bottle I had to distil with and then looked into the dangers of using gas and bought a cooking plate instead.
They can come with their own set of problems. If it has a simmerstat, expect trouble trying to run it without a separate voltage controller.
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by Saltbush Bill »

It seems to me from reading your posts that you are trying to run before you can walk. I think you need to slooooowwwwwwww right down and learn some basic distillation principles before trying to dive in and make gin.
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by mburke78 »

Saltbush Bill wrote:It seems to me from reading your posts that you are trying to run before you can walk. I think you need to slooooowwwwwwww right down and learn some basic distillation principles before trying to dive in and make gin.
I'm doing a lot of reading and want to pin everything down before I attempt to do anything. I bought the yeast on the advice of the shop :( I should of stuck to what I read and bought a champagne yeast. Believe me I'm not rushing into things as I bought the still about 2 months ago and it took me about 3 weeks to buy the equipment after painstakingly going through everything. I have read a couple of books and been reading articles and such. The issue I have had is a lot seem to use sugar and a lot seem to be geared towards Whiskey making.

I suppose I joined to ask questions on parts I'm not sure about and to correct any mistakes (such as the yeast) before I actually go ahead and do anything. I appreciate all the advice from people with experience believe me :D
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by StillerBoy »

mburke78 wrote:I'm doing a lot of reading and want to pin everything down before I attempt to do anything.
Your're on the right track.. but.. reading is just reading.. its fine for such as the research for the still..

As for making first gin.. you will need to develop experience making a wash first, then move on the making a mash.. two very different process.. each requiring learning from actually doing, and not just from reading..

Do a mash without prior experience with grains, and oat especial, which is a touchy grain to work with.. and without the right tools to work the grains with.. you are asking to create problem for yourself..

As to making a very good gin.. start with a neutral base wash, such a plain sugar wash of 10% abv, reflux to 95%.. then re-run with a blend of herbs of your choice.. or buy already made essences..

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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by Saltbush Bill »

mburke78 wrote: I bought the yeast on the advice of the shop :( I should of stuck to what I read and bought a champagne yeast.
Yes mistake No 1 ..shops rarely know much about distilling ....or think they do and dont. Most of them just want to sell you the rubbish distilling products that they sell.
You can make a very acceptable netural as your gin base spirit using bakers yeast in a "TPW" Birdwatchers sugar wash ..or a Goos Kale Wash and running it through a reflux still.
This really would be the easiest way for a beginner to make gin and the way that the majority of hobby distillers do it.
What sort of still or stills do you intend to use to make your gin?
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

If you are comfortable with mashing, I might suggest either rice or wheat as your base grain. If it were me, I would use either rice or wheat (whichever is cheapest at the moment) converted with enzymes. Mash, ferment, strip, then run through a high reflux column such as a CCVM for the base spirit.

But, do whatever you're most comfortable with, there is no "correct" answer. If you're not comfortable with mashing, do a simple sugar wash such as Rad's All Bran wash. It is in the Tried and True section. Good luck on your journey.
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by mburke78 »

Saltbush Bill wrote:
mburke78 wrote: I bought the yeast on the advice of the shop :( I should of stuck to what I read and bought a champagne yeast.
Yes mistake No 1 ..shops rarely know much about distilling ....or think they do and dont. Most of them just want to sell you the rubbish distilling products that they sell.
You can make a very acceptable netural as your gin base spirit using bakers yeast in a "TPW" Birdwatchers sugar wash ..or a Goos Kale Wash and running it through a reflux still.
This really would be the easiest way for a beginner to make gin and the way that the majority of hobby distillers do it.
What sort of still or stills do you intend to use to make your gin?
I have a 10 litre pot still. I am planning to using sugar for my first attemp but then using oats or wheat and barley going forward.
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by NZChris »

With only a pot still at your disposal, you might not be able to strip enough flavor from grains to get it neutral enough for many gins. Jenever, perhaps, but not London dry. Double distilling a sugar wash like TPW or wheat bran vodka without being greedy with the cuts should make you a good enough base spirit for most gins.

If you ferment one charge worth at a time it will take forever to make your first gin, so ferment enough to make at least four still charges for the spirit run.
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by mburke78 »

Just a quick question. Is it best to use barley flakes over whole barley grains? Has anything been done to the flakes in the manufacturing process to not make them a good choice. Do you treat them the same in terms of the temperatures needed in the mash.
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by shadylane »

mburke78 wrote:I have a 10 litre pot still. I am planning to using sugar for my first attemp but then using oats or wheat and barley going forward.
I'd suggest death wish wheat germ for the recipe.
Strip 3 or 4 boilers full, dilute and spirit run with narrow cuts.
That should get enough clean alcohol for experimenting with gin, and good feints for the next run :thumbup:
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by engunear »

Great question!

I've tried making gin with sugar wash (turbo and other yeasts), with neutral grape spirit, and wheat. It seems to me that even neutral alcohol can have specific characteristics that make it good for gin. What you want for gin is a spirit that is, besides neutral, (for want of a better word) "soft", which is the opposite of "sharp" or "hot". I've seen grape spirit which remains fiery even after slow fractional distillation and just ruins the botanicals. I read somewhere on these pages that oats gives a soft spirit, and have a mash running right now.

But to those unfamiliar with what I'm talking about compare Smirnoff and Belvedere vodkas at similar concentration.
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by Bushman »

I agree with previous posts using birdwatchers. Makes a nice neutral to rerun with botanicals for gin.
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by jon1163 »

STAY AWAY FROM TURBO YEAST..

Man, I started distilling before I found this site, and like many others was introduced to Turbo yeast as The product to have for fast ferments for home spirits. After doing multiple runs I still couldn't stomach the flavor of what I was making... Even after twice through a reflux! It is the turbo yeast. I can't for the life of me figure out how they stay in business.

... Then I found homedistiller.org and everything changed. Now I read, or more study, every day by browsing through the site. I still go back every now and then to the posts that bilgriss recommended to you and read those. Even now I learn something new each time.

Birdwatchers tastes great and is just as easy as using turbo. The best advice I can give you is to read and remember, Home distilling is about quality not quantity.

Cheers and welcome to the site.
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by Saltbush Bill »

The best neutral Ive made for gin was a bastardized Birdwatchers wash.....followed the recipe but swapped fine ground wheat for Tomato Paste as the nutrient.
Stripped it, then ran it slow through a 3 inch Boka and made real tight cuts. Its as smooth and close to tasteless as I think I will ever get.
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by mburke78 »

I've started my first batch and so far so good. I decided on a pure sugar solution for the first go and used the turbo yeast to just get it used as it's the easiest and wanted to see the process working. I think I will go for a champagne yeast next. I'll keep you all updated. Now to think of what to flavor it with.
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by TDick »

bilgriss wrote:Hi there.
I am no expert on gin, but your post still makes me think I can give you some advice.
Go here - http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=46 and read everything until you are confident it makes sense.
Then read through this: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=52975 following all the links, paying special attention to the safety related ones.u
Then when you are done getting questions answered from those areas, start researching a good recipe. The nature of your questions tell me you need to address that basics first. Please understand that my first concern is your safety. It won't take all that long to get up to speed for a first effort, and you'll be making good stuff before you know it!
First thing, I am STILL a NOOB! :mrgreen:
And I owe you an apology.
I started reading +MBURKE78 post because I am interested in Gin so I read pretty much every post here and a couple of other forums on that subject.
In my Noobian opinion, if not the most difficult spirit to tackle, it certainly seems to be the one with the most options. Which means you got a lot of choices to make and it's not easy.

And I thought you were a bit short with the guy. That does tend to happen when noobs come on board here and say, "I saw something on youtube or read somewhere else, now tell me how to do this", then get their ass handed to them. HOWEVER, in the months I've spent here, I am starting to recognize when a noob has put in the work but still hasn't quite gotten it. Or someone who says feed me.

The more I read MBurke's post, the more I realized he falls in that latter category.
So as a fellow noob who studies this stuff EVERY DAY, my apologies Bilgris.
MBurke, constructive criticism - follow his instructions, then do it AGAIN and be glad he and some of the other Old Pros didn't hand you your ass.
Cheers and best of luck.
:mrgreen:
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by mburke78 »

Bamaberry wrote:
bilgriss wrote:Hi there.
I am no expert on gin, but your post still makes me think I can give you some advice.
Go here - http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=46 and read everything until you are confident it makes sense.
Then read through this: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=52975 following all the links, paying special attention to the safety related ones.u
Then when you are done getting questions answered from those areas, start researching a good recipe. The nature of your questions tell me you need to address that basics first. Please understand that my first concern is your safety. It won't take all that long to get up to speed for a first effort, and you'll be making good stuff before you know it!
First thing, I am STILL a NOOB! :mrgreen:
And I owe you an apology.
I started reading +MBURKE78 post because I am interested in Gin so I read pretty much every post here and a couple of other forums on that subject.
In my Noobian opinion, if not the most difficult spirit to tackle, it certainly seems to be the one with the most options. Which means you got a lot of choices to make and it's not easy.

And I thought you were a bit short with the guy. That does tend to happen when noobs come on board here and say, "I saw something on youtube or read somewhere else, now tell me how to do this", then get their ass handed to them. HOWEVER, in the months I've spent here, I am starting to recognize when a noob has put in the work but still hasn't quite gotten it. Or someone who says feed me.

The more I read MBurke's post, the more I realized he falls in that latter category.
So as a fellow noob who studies this stuff EVERY DAY, my apologies Bilgris.
MBurke, constructive criticism - follow his instructions, then do it AGAIN and be glad he and some of the other Old Pros didn't hand you your ass.
Cheers and best of luck.
:mrgreen:
I'm not quite sure how to read that comment but I'm not asking anyone to wipe my backside. I joined this forum as I wanted to get expert advise of people who have done this for years. If people don't want to help me then I am fine with that but am grateful to the people who have taken their time in helping. I live in the UK and I'll be honest making alcohol is not something we do so I have no point of reference to go from or nobody to learn from. Yes I have read books and youtube video's and read posts. I'm even asking small commercial distillers in the area to go visit but they are in the middle of a move so that will have to be sometime in 2018.

I admit I have struggled to find answers on my own as it's overwhelming but is this not the point of a forum or the learning process to ask people who are experts. If I am getting people's back up then let me know and I will stop posting questions.
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NZChris
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by NZChris »

It is possible to find out what to do without forums and youtube etc..

I'm grateful that such things didn't exist when I started out and that I had to do actual research rather than flounder through the quagmire of Chinese Whispers and BS that newbie distillers are confronted with on this new fangled interweb thingy. If you are going to post a question on gin/whatever, don't expect that every reply you get will be from expert distillers with years of experience. Forums are great for pointing you in a direction, but it is up to you to do the research or experimentation to verify the quality of any advice given.
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by TDick »

After reading & re-reading
Everything relevant to my situation on the Parent Site;
Spoonfeeding;
ALL the categories under "New To Distilling";
then dropping down to Tried & True Recipes, I read:
Odin's EASY Gin
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 14&t=48594

It refers to a BW base, among other choices. I had to search and figure out what BW meant ( you see it a LOT, refers to Birdwatchers.)
I haven't made it, but it seems to be regarded as an easy recipe for NOOBS like ME to start with.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =14&t=5018

So, I'm thinking, if you followed the roadmap it might have answered a lot of your questions.
It certainly answered a bunch of mine. Luckily, I was guided here after youtube and it helped me eliminate a lot of items out of my Shopping List on Amazon like Airlocks and Turboyeast.

Also, when I go through a thread, I look at who's making the suggestion. If it's someone like me (6 months) I tend to skip it. Through hours and hours and hours of reading, I recognize names of "hobbyists" who know their stuff AND with whom I "agree". I'm running Jimbo's Wheated Bourbon recipe, 16 pages long. I've read the whole thing twice and I still refer back when I see it's updated.

I'm still a noob and I still ask stupid questions and make "inexperienced" comments. But I'd like to think the guys who know what their doing recognize that I've at least put in the time, and they are always ready to help. Even when they say, "Go back and read. It's all here."
Good luck.
:mrgreen:
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by engunear »

Guys, I'm watching this thread and trying to decide what I think of it. Well, I know what I think of it, but I'm not sure what we think about it.

Is Home Distiller a place where a person can be "handed their ass" by some "Old Pros' because they ask a stupid question? Or failed to do their homework?

The fears that someone should have when taking up this hobby is that they will blow themselves up, like those guys in Kentucky, or they will poison themselves like those in Queensland. Or they will electrocute themselves. Or they will find that with free booze they destroy their liver and their family.

If someone makes a dumb statement, or asks a dumb question, it can be ignored. Or someone can stop following the thread. But its not, in my book, a license to humiliate them.

People should not have fear that they will be "handed their ass" in public, or in private for that matter. Well thats what I think. But this is a community; what do we think?
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to make whiskey. I think that what we have to say has more lasting value.

Anyone who tells you measurement is easy is a liar, a fool, or both.
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Re: Best grain for gin

Post by RedwoodHillBilly »

engunear wrote:what do we think?
Everybody should just calm down and chill out with a glass of their favorite beverage. My $0.02
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