email from Brewhaus

This forum is used by 1000's of people from dozens of countries. Please observe the rules, we all want to get along and contribute in a graceful manner.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
mash rookie
Angel's Share
Angel's Share
Posts: 2228
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:20 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by mash rookie »

As time goes by my thoughts continue to evolve about this.

Lets consider for a moment the TTB position and mandate. They are charged with enforcing laws and regulations concerning distilled alcohol. Until now the amateur hobbyist was a small problem. A complicated difficult process is made tougher by the mechanical skills necessary to build a functional still. Very few have the knowledge or skills necessary to achieve success.

Along comes the internet. Next, Along comes difficult financial times for many that causes them to reach out in curiosity. Companies start popping up like weeds to fill demand. Not satisfied to create American jobs some businesses reach out to China to improve profit and increase sales.

Golly gee wiz. Now come along a stupid show aboot makin liker. Another half a million people are now thinking, If those idiots can do it How tough can it be? I saw it on TV. I wont sell, just make some for myself.

Now. What the hell is the TTB going to do about it? Hmm... Go into every guys home that talked about making a still online? Look up every guy that professed the knowledge? Too difficult.

How do they put a big dent in a growing underground illegal hobby? Stop Chinese imported stills? Put the retailer out of business. That's how. And that is not going to be that tough. How would I do it?

First I would make them provide a customer list knowing that the word would get out quick. Check

Second I would require them to file quarterly reports. Check

Third but not last, I would send out letters to everyone on every list reminding them that distillation without a license is illegal and that we have their name and address. (although probably unnecessary to add that obvious statement) Probably mailed next week.

Lastly I would plant several articles that would pop up on Google when folks searched for moonshine or home distilling stating that the Feds are notified every time distillation equipment is purchased. That should do it. When checked, remember to say hi at federal bankruptsy court

That would stop all online sales and scare many away from starting the hobby at all. It will shrink back to the few do it yourself guys.
User avatar
Jimbo
retired
Posts: 8423
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:19 pm
Location: Down the road a piece.

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by Jimbo »

MR's evolving thoughts on this are the best Ive read yet on this thread. Puts my mind at ease a little too. (altho not too at ease) The Feds are probably saying, 'Goddamned TV show has got every swinging dick cooking up some Godawful half baked slop in their sheds. Lets scare the fuckers back in their holes' And what MR laid out will do just that for 90% of the latest fad rush to backyard stillin.

Doogie, Napster was about millions of people stealing millions of dollars of copyrighted material. We're not stealing anything.

And there's no 'kingpin' druglord they can trace us too, short of Herbert and Martha at the local feedlot selling bags of crack(ed corn). "GODDAMNIT HERBERT, TELL ME NOWWHO BOUGHT THOSE 2 BAGS OF GODDAMNED CORN!!!"
In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. But in practice there is.
My Bourbon and Single Malt recipes. Apple Stuff and Electric Conversion
User avatar
Tater
Admin
Posts: 9678
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 9:19 am
Location: occupied south

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by Tater »

Far as TTB is concerned .Guess we will have to keep a check on TTB website .See if they go to hiring. :mrgreen: .Hell who knows the still sellers may have opened a job growth area for the government. :esurprised: Fellas way I see it.If they want ya they gonna get ya.However Id think your gonna have to be worthwhile to get.With TTB leaving the weekend warriors to local law.Wonder how many that has bought still parts from sellers will get tagged by IRS for audits.That be a easy way to see if income changed after buying still.If your worried hide your still and drink the evidence.And swear that the still was a gift for that ex brother in law who ya always had your doubts about. :thumbup:
I use a pot still.Sometimes with a thumper
goose eye
Master of Distillation
Posts: 2846
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:19 am

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by goose eye »

What yall got to worry bout is the feds shairin
that info with state an local likker law. It up to them
if they want to go after you.

Jumbo how much tax is there on a fifth of
likker. That's that much they aint gettin

so im tole
User avatar
Rastus
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 694
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:27 pm

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by Rastus »

i just caught up on this thread tonight and read it all to the end couldnt stop even though i got other things i shoulda been doing...
from my very first post i been paranoid cause this is a great resource, but also anyone can read in. as we get comfortable with each other and disclose information about what we're doing, and how much of it etc. some may draw interest and potentially flagged for closer observation. some of us live in a big pond, so to speak, little easier to blend in. some live in very little towns that every body knows you... but the whole internet thing, dang i bought me a part for my set up from a still maker, well 3 parts and paid with a card to my bank account. I thought about it for a moment maybe a money order or cash woulda been better... but sheesh, look how fast they got all the info they wanted on the boston incident. if they want us or you, or me it is done... so i just happen to have a copper sculture in the back lot, in 4 corners keeps the crows away. and that kettle i make beer with but not more than 200 gallons per adult living in my household. i am a little less worried about them coming over for a visit cause i dont share but only with 3 of my best friends. and i sure as hell wont sell any cause it is not cost effective. thats where the large boilers come in i think. like you say under 15 gallons aint going to generate enough product to make someone a good catch. now if like someone said i am a bad neighbor loud parties and traffic in and out all hours of day and night... drunks stumbling around the neighborhood... then you get the cross hairs on your forehead... or maybe they use the red dots now...
i have also heard and seen "intent" used in this thread forgive me i forgot who said it, but i know of places where the cops arrested and confiscated Sugar and yeast. because it was considered intent to produce alcohol, of course that was a dry community it was being mailed into.
now today i hear how the department of justice is got some heat for tapping and snooping in on a reporter... it is unheard of the depth of their tactics, combine that with the other things that are getting out of hand its all adding up. chaos in a way, if your too big a problem for them keep an eye to the sky. the IRS got its own troubles too... i guess conservative rightwing moonshiners are more likely to be targeted in this current regime.

ok its late and i am rambling i meant to contribute some thoughts that were meaningful... well i tried
She was just a moonshiner,
But he loved her Still
Doogie
Trainee
Posts: 750
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:25 pm

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by Doogie »

Jimbo wrote: Doogie, Napster was about millions of people stealing millions of dollars of copyrighted material. We're not stealing anything.

And there's no 'kingpin' druglord they can trace us too, short of Herbert and Martha at the local feedlot selling bags of crack(ed corn). "GODDAMNIT HERBERT, TELL ME NOWWHO BOUGHT THOSE 2 BAGS OF GODDAMNED CORN!!!"
Jimbo, while you and I can agree that you are not stealing anything, politicians will argue that we are stealing tax based revenue and the production industry could counter that by using illegal means, we are gaining an unfair advantage. Worse if someone is selling and using the production advantage (no insurance, bonding, record keeping, etc, etc) to produce cheap likker. It would be the same as you having an oil change company and having to pay to dispose of the drained oil, and the idiot beside you pulling some of your clients for half price and dumping the oil down the storm drain.

For the most part, many here will be doing this for personal consumption - OK, I am sure they get that. However 1) we (in general) have given away free likker to friends/family, and this reduces tax/production profits unfairly. 2) it is still illegal - to hide under "I only make for myself" would open the door to all sorts of illegal substance production.

You are correct about Napster - millions of users about millions of songs, but after Napster's failure in court, the RIAA went after around 35,000 individuals, many of which stopped and paid a fine. And this was the industry doing this - not a government agency. Again, not stealing is subject to interpretation, and unfortunately those that think they are getting stolen from are the ones with knowledge of the laws, and the enforcement resources.

Remember, police services have to provide reasons for existance - yes, the meth house and crack dealers are important, but other issues do get addressed. To say "they have better things to do" may not be entirely accurate. In counties where still ownership is banned, it would be easy enough to get warrants based on information from those lists. Many will escape, either having incomplete stills from breaking them apart, or have no shine on location, but a few of them will either have a complete still, have production in progress, or have a stash of likker. God forbid if you have a large stash aging away for 6 months ... now you will be labelled as a producer for sale instead of a "just for myself'er". These takedowns, like the 35,000 napster users, will be deterrents for others and justification for the police force actions.

Point is - the "for myself" excuse will not fly, the "not stealing" is not accurate, and if you are a cash strapped local/state government with resources to go after it, they will. If you bought a still larger than 1 gallon online, I would be concerned. May be best to make a stash and hide it, and then hide the still for a while.
LTV - "keep in mind distilling is like masturbating. You do one wrong and you go blind."

Want to keep people from consulting idiots on youTube about distilling?? Don't be an idiot when someone asks for advice ... Help them
noobshine
Swill Maker
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:51 am
Location: the south

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by noobshine »

not to be argumentative but "not stealing" IS accurate. why is it not? because as a society we have become desensitized to the fact that decades ago likker was singled out to be unreasonably taxed? we have sin tax and no longer think a thing of it. mark my words "fat tax" is next. tax on foods greater than 40% fat content. fat tax on soft drinks and desserts. then the shit will hit the fan again and people will be outraged about it because they havent had 3-4 generations to get used to it and "sheeple" right along with it. The likker tax is arbitrary at best and as far as I'm concerned illegalizing home distilling is no different than illegalizing gardening because the state can't charge sales tax on unregulated vegetable growing. Personal consumption is no excuse... I'm not stealing is no excuse... well "its the law of the land" is no excuse either for a dumbass law. we've had plenty of horrible hateful descriminatory laws of the land in the past and it took a civil war to fix them. i'm not saying taxing likker is as bad but its the same principle. You are right about the fact that it "wont fly" though. nothing i just said would fly in court. It just felt good to say. :twisted:
This is kind of embarrassing but sometimes I like to smell my own backset
rad14701
retired
Posts: 20865
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:46 pm
Location: New York, USA

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by rad14701 »

<off-topic>

I would like to bring up one aspect that very few ever bother to take into consideration here... There is a great disparity between "personal consumption" and "gifting"... Personal consumption means just that, to be personally consumed within the household... It does not mean to make something and give it away... Not to rain on anyone's parade but that's not how the laws were intended to work... From the governments standpoint, if you gift something rather than consume it personally it is subject to taxation... If you aren't intending on consuming it you shouldn't be making it... You aren't supposed to gift homebrewed beer or wine so it would also hold true that even if home distillation were to be decriminalized/legalized you shouldn't be gifting those distilled spirits either... Sure, people have been gifting wine for years, but it hasn't been legal...

If we want to move in the right direction, towards decriminalization/legalization, we need to understand how the government interprets the laws... You're battling them on two separate fronts if you are gifting your spirits as an excuse to make larger volumes than for personal consumption...

</off-topic>
baron4406
Swill Maker
Posts: 261
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:53 pm

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by baron4406 »

I'm also reminded of a little incident me and my better half encountered last year in Virginia (we love it there). Stopping for gas in a tiny little town i was shocked to see mason jars of product right on the counter for sale with a sign like "John's finest corn likker". My wife just knew i had to buy a jar and with jar in hand paying the cashier , in walks in Johnny Law. We love it down there because as long as you don't act like some arrogant northerner-they are the friendliest people you ever met. The clerk loudly introduced us to the cop as "visitors from up north" who I stuck up a conversation with, he's telling me the best places to eat, best hiking trails, where to watch my speed driving and stuff to avoid. All the while I'm holding a mason jar of white dog, he never batted an eye at it. We left and couldn't believe it. Like I said worry about your local situation, its where the trouble may come from (or not come from). BTW the white dog wasn't bad, it wasn't a sugar head but definitely malted corn, not half bad needed some aging tho.
carnica
Novice
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:34 am

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by carnica »

noobshine wrote: mark my words "fat tax" is next. tax on foods greater than 40% fat content. fat tax on soft drinks and desserts. then the shit will hit the fan again and people will be outraged about it because they havent had 3-4 generations to get used to it and "sheeple" right along with it.
Two years or so ago they got fat tax in Denmark (no joke!) The politicians, as usual, didn't know that the over-fat epidemic is caused by overconsumption of carbohydrates rather than fat. The law lasted for about a year - now it's history, thank God!

The problem is that some peoples (=nationalities) accept everything after protesting lamely for a short while, while other almost will make revolution or block streets with their tractors in protest of some stupid regulations.
"Good living is an act of intelligence, by which we choose things which have an agreeable taste rather than those which do not."
-Jean Anthelme Brillat-Savarin,
User avatar
Jimbo
retired
Posts: 8423
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:19 pm
Location: Down the road a piece.

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by Jimbo »

Someone just mentioned in another thread "If I live to 200 I MAY recoup the cost of my AG setup"

Which gave me another thought, Im sure we're pumping more money into the economy buying commodities (copper, corn, etc) than the couple dollars loss in tax revenue on us making our own consumables. Idont pay tax on the tomatoes I grow or the beer I make and they seem to be ok with that, for now anyway. Like I said below, its not the fed Im worried about, Id be shocked if they bust my door down for a couple quarts of homemade, its the local barney fife looking for a trophy at election time. Or the local rag looking for dirt. Rags LOVE good dirt.
In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. But in practice there is.
My Bourbon and Single Malt recipes. Apple Stuff and Electric Conversion
User avatar
Rastus
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 694
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:27 pm

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by Rastus »

and as the national health records are all going digital, and health care is becoming nationalized and administrated by one of the folks involved in bringing us the latest news from the IRS demonstrates the culture of the current administration.
So they get the files from the manufacture like brewhaus, start the new national database, and share the data base with state and local Barney Fifes... they have a fresh list of persons of interest.
She was just a moonshiner,
But he loved her Still
User avatar
thecroweater
retired
Posts: 6079
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:04 am
Location: Central Highlands Vic. Australia

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by thecroweater »

Yep got to go along with the sentiments of MR's posts. These imports are flooding the markets world wide. I'm not saying that is good or bad but left unabated it will likely force governments to jump one way or another. a lot of these distilling company's around now are mostly distributors of products manufactured by the Wenzhou Yayi light industrial machinery Co Ltd China .
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin
carnica
Novice
Posts: 68
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:34 am

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by carnica »

Thanks for that info croweater! It was interesting to see what they actually make in China. Lots of pictures at:

http://chinatianma.com/en/zpro_list_16_1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

and

http://yangyimachine.en.alibaba.com/pro ... sGallery=Y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
"Good living is an act of intelligence, by which we choose things which have an agreeable taste rather than those which do not."
-Jean Anthelme Brillat-Savarin,
milehidistilling
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:30 am
Location: Denver

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by milehidistilling »

I have 5 people building distiller towers 3 welders and 2 others that polish and cut tubing and drill holes even the stainless tubing is made in the USA. The flute parts are from China but we do build the plates and the parrot in house that go with the flute.
I think Brewhaus builds his towers in the USA and Hillbilly stills makes his copper flute but started selling stainless towers made in China.
All the cans are from China because there is not any company’s in the USA I’ve looked. I found one company that can make a small boiler 8 gallon but it would be over $500.00 wholesale in the USA.
I have to say the Chinese are ruthless I make a tower like the 4 in 1 and a few days later I have Chinese company’s sending my photo back to me trying to sell to me.
User avatar
drinkingdog
Rumrunner
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:16 pm
Location: over yonder

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by drinkingdog »

Just wondering if the names and addresses that are given to the Fed's from all customers or just from still purchases. Also is there any other information given in regards to customers purchases?
My Grandpa used to say. Don't argue with an idiot, because he will just drag you down to his level then beat you with experience.
He also used to say. I didn't say it was your fault. I just said that I was blaming you.

DD
bluenose
Bootlegger
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:40 pm

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by bluenose »

Know and respect your enemy! It is only very very stupid people who think the law is stupid. And avoid like the plague, loud attention seeking wannabe gangsters who are in it for the glory, to be a face, to be a name. They don't mean to fuck up. They just do. --- XXXX, Layer Cake
I'm not a shiner, but I play one on TV
Doogie
Trainee
Posts: 750
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:25 pm

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by Doogie »

I really do not believe the whole "made in China" reasoning - nothing personal - just I think that "the show" has created more awareness to the process and law enforcement/production industry have noticed and now it is a issue they want to investigate. Easiest way is to ask US sellers of equiptment for their lists that they apparently have to maintain. If they can get a list of people who own them, then starting investigations will be easy, and eventually getting convictions for shining will be equally easy. There really is no other use for a 5-15 gal. still other than likker production. Nobody is going to believe it is for water production.

Would be interesting to hear if it is just stills, or parts of stills, or anything bought at all.

And I do not believe they are not going to do anything with the info. Best if you ordered a pre-fab online, start distilling a shitload of water and put that in yer carboys for a while. Buy a few books about water pollution and water safety and when they come to yer house explain that you think "the Man" is putting shit in the water to control you. :shock: :D
LTV - "keep in mind distilling is like masturbating. You do one wrong and you go blind."

Want to keep people from consulting idiots on youTube about distilling?? Don't be an idiot when someone asks for advice ... Help them
noobshine
Swill Maker
Posts: 229
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:51 am
Location: the south

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by noobshine »

someone said earlier that owning a 1 gal still is legal as long as you don't use it to make spirits. anything larger than 1 gal is illegal regardless of its use. so how do manufacturers get away with selling 8 gal stills? milehi maybe you can answer this
This is kind of embarrassing but sometimes I like to smell my own backset
User avatar
drinkingdog
Rumrunner
Posts: 607
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:16 pm
Location: over yonder

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by drinkingdog »

noobshine wrote:someone said earlier that owning a 1 gal still is legal as long as you don't use it to make spirits. anything larger than 1 gal is illegal regardless of its use. so how do manufacturers get away with selling 8 gal stills? milehi maybe you can answer this
It is not illegal to sell larger boilers. What is legal or illegal is what you the end user is going to do with it. As far as milehigh or any other manufacturers are concerned you are a legal Distiller or soon to be legal Distiller. They aren't required to check you for the proper licenses. You as the end user are required to follow the laws
2+ doogie
My Grandpa used to say. Don't argue with an idiot, because he will just drag you down to his level then beat you with experience.
He also used to say. I didn't say it was your fault. I just said that I was blaming you.

DD
User avatar
Jimbo
retired
Posts: 8423
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:19 pm
Location: Down the road a piece.

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by Jimbo »

Doogie wrote: And I do not believe they are not going to do anything with the info. Best if you ordered a pre-fab online, start distilling a shitload of water and put that in yer carboys for a while. Buy a few books about water pollution and water safety and when they come to yer house explain that you think "the Man" is putting shit in the water to control you. :shock: :D
HAHA :lol: :thumbup: Brilliant.
In theory there's no difference between theory and practice. But in practice there is.
My Bourbon and Single Malt recipes. Apple Stuff and Electric Conversion
Clearwater
Bootlegger
Posts: 127
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:45 am
Location: Land of the free?

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by Clearwater »

Well, looks like many of us are just sitting around waiting on the Paddy Wagon in essence. I can hide my still, but what good does that do? They have a record of purchase.

This is why I'm a Libertarian. I'm not hurting anyone. If anything, I stimulating local business as much as possible with what I need in terms of fermentables and resources. I don't need my Gov't telling me what I can and cannot do. I don't like being forced into SS (the worst investment ever), told what I can and cannot do with my body, or taxing me to pay for programs that are unnecessary.

“The duty of a patriot is to protect his country from its government.” ~ Thomas Paine

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... 0xjeIKlY#!

Happy Memorial Day to our living and crossed-over veterans. While I do not agree with our Gov't decisions in the recent past, do not think your sacrifice was in vain. Thank you.
milehidistilling
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:30 am
Location: Denver

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by milehidistilling »

They are asking for complete stills also towers and boilers. Not supplies
The paper work from the TTB stats that all still manufacture has to keep and report to the TTB if asked.
If I’m reading correctly the companies could order out of the county and not have to keep records because they are no longer the manufacture.
So companies possibly could use this to sell more Chinese crap
User avatar
Rastus
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 694
Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 4:27 pm

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by Rastus »

milehidistilling wrote:They are asking for complete stills also towers and boilers. Not supplies
The paper work from the TTB stats that all still manufacture has to keep and report to the TTB if asked.
If I’m reading correctly the companies could order out of the county and not have to keep records because they are no longer the manufacture.
So companies possibly could use this to sell more Chinese crap
so does that mean if i bought a chinese made boiler, that wasnt manufactured by the dealer, my name wont be on their list? they only report a boiler they themselves manufactured?
She was just a moonshiner,
But he loved her Still
milehidistilling
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:30 am
Location: Denver

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by milehidistilling »

Rastus wrote:
milehidistilling wrote:They are asking for complete stills also towers and boilers. Not supplies
The paper work from the TTB stats that all still manufacture has to keep and report to the TTB if asked.
If I’m reading correctly the companies could order out of the county and not have to keep records because they are no longer the manufacture.
So companies possibly could use this to sell more Chinese crap
so does that mean if i bought a chinese made boiler, that wasnt manufactured by the dealer, my name wont be on their list? they only report a boiler they themselves manufactured?

They told me they want a full report even if I only resold it. But on their web site it says manufacture only has to report. This early in the game I’m not going to argue and make things worse.
blind drunk
retired
Posts: 4848
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:59 am

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by blind drunk »

Thanks for keeping the community informed and up to date. Cheers.
I do all my own stunts
milehidistilling
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:30 am
Location: Denver

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by milehidistilling »

The problem is the laws are so old and vague nobody knew what’s going on.
goose eye
Master of Distillation
Posts: 2846
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:19 am

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by goose eye »

sure you a smart man an already got legal council. ignorance of the law is not a good excuse.


so im tole
Bayou-Ruler
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 1703
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: SW Louisiana

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by Bayou-Ruler »

Looks like the bottom line is..... If you bought it and didn't build it the proverbial "Cat" will soon be out of the bag. The TTB already knows my name, address and social security number! :wtf:
Bayou Ethanol
Ethanol Fuel Producer

AFP-LA-15027
http://www.BayouEthanol.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
okie
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 258
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:33 am
Location: Lost in America

Re: email from Brewhaus

Post by okie »

Very troubling for someone who just ordered. :roll: :shh: :shh:

Time to lay low.
Never try to argue or reason with idiots and morons, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Post Reply