firing up first batch of wine, what should I expect

barrelcreator · Post by **barrelcreator** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:09 pm

Stilling gods, first thanks for dealing with a newby.

I have left over zinfandel wine and I am going to pot destill it tonight. What should I expect as an outcome with regards to alcohol percentage, flavor etc. wine is at 15% now. This is my first batch and I would love any advise that can be offered.

I will start small with 3 gallons of wine and dont even know how much to grapa. brandy (what is pot destilled red wine called) to expect 750ml total??? More??? three hours run time??? More??? Thanks in advance for dealing with a newby.

showrguy · Post by **showrguy** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:40 pm

i don't know what your rig is, and even if i did i don't think i could tell you what to expect from what your doing........

however,,,,
if this is your first run at distilling or running your still i can guarantee that you will learn/absorb a shitload of information (and a shitload of questions) in the next couple of hours.........
good luck.

showrguy · Post by **showrguy** » Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:44 pm

barrelcreator---------- now that's an interesting name..
i just got done watching "dirty jobs with mike rowe"on the discovery channel, and he was working with a couple of coopers making oak barrels for wine or whisky ??
was one of those guys you ?? it was very interesting...

As-Ol-Joe · Post by **As-Ol-Joe** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:08 am

showrguy, that was an interesting show, I really enjoyed it.

barrelcreator, I generally get about a pint of drinkable product per gallon of wash using a pot still. I don't use reflux columns yet, so I can't comment.

barrelcreator · Post by **barrelcreator** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:28 am

My name comes from I own a winemaking oak alternative company and have pretty good knowledge in toasting oak and oak flavor profiles. I have been been making approx. 100 to 200 gallons of wine each year for 7 years now. Any oak aging questions, I would be more than happy to advise.

Lots of extra wine laying around to distill. to bad its not extremely pleasant distilled.

I ran 3 gallons of 15% zinfandel wine through it (pot setting). Ended up with 750ml in approx. an hour. Ran it through a brita carbon and ion filter. WOW what a difference after filtered. The swill is drinkable and has a Brandy or Vermouth style flavor. All in all, I have a lot to learn... I have to decide how to age or blend or cut this stuff. It will blow your socks off your feet. Im happy with the ministill design and Im excited to start a rum mash for the holidays. Thanks again for all the help and advise.

pothead · Post by **pothead** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:03 am

how much foreshots did ya throw away?

Also, when you run wine, it will taste MUCH better if the wine has no sulfites in it.

When you age it, try using toasted oak, and a few raisins.

White wine, I use white raisins, red wine, regular raisins.
DOn't use too many raisins or the product might get too sweet and sticky.
1/4 cup per gallon...also don't leave them in too long, maybe a few months.

Most important, don't filter it with britta filters, it will strip too much flavor, and there may be chemical ingredients in the filter that is made to filter water with, not booze.....you might be getting nasties, and not realize it.

barrelcreator · Post by **barrelcreator** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:09 am

I got 750ml of good stuff and threw away probably a total of two cups of heads and foots. So age the distilled wine with the oak and raisins? Thanks.

Post by **Usge** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:24 am

Last time I ran 1 gallon of 13% wine, I got output of about a liter running to 98c. That included foreshots/heads, etc., everything. After cuts I had about 650ml. With 3 gallons of 15% to start, I would think you should be getting considerably more output than you seem to be getting.

barrelcreator · Post by **barrelcreator** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:53 pm

You are right. I had probably 100ml or more go bad from an early filtering of carbon that turned the small amount black so I tossed it. You have distiller wine before, how are you cutting it or aging it? Although its palatable, it seems harsh and has almost a vermouth or grappa, grapy nose and flavor thats not the best choice in my mind. What was the brady alc%. Thanks.

Post by **Usge** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:52 pm

Harshness can be a sign of early cut with too much heads and not letting it run out long enough. Considering the amount you collected on 3 gallons...I'd say that's a good bet. Every still is a little different as well and can produce it's own variables. So, no matter what, in the end, you still have to depend on your nose/tastes, etc. to pick the good from the bad or visa versa.

It definitely has a "grappa" taste to it and the flavor is determined by the kind of wine/grape you are using.

I never age or oak mine because it never lasts that long. But I do let it sit and air out a while before making cuts..and after it's blended together. It usually ends up somewhere around 50-60%. Using uncharred oak is also an option.

barrelcreator · Post by **barrelcreator** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:32 pm

I know I can search for it but would you mind explaining your process for cutting. I distilled into 7 cups to track heads-tails. The #1 cut was very harsh and a bit yellow #2 through 6 were good. #7 was cardboard. I blended 2-6 and pitched 1 and 7. How could I have inproved on the process?

Post by **Usge** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:19 pm

First, make sure you are doing your run all the way out. (ie..you aren't just collecting "heads" thinking they are heads/middle/tails). I still think it sounds like you were stopping your run way early (given the amount you said you collected)

Second, when you think you might be near a cut point, use smaller containers...so you aren't having to choose between keeping a full cup of product..vs tossing it. It will be easier to indentify transitions as well...rather than having an "off/on" type of deal.

Third, after you collect it all....let it air out till the next day. THEN go about sniffing, tasting, and smelling to make your cuts. I think it will make more sense that way. Higher abv (always towards heads) is going to have a hot nose to it...even when it's otherwise good. So, you have to taste. A few drops in a spoon with a few drops of water. Later tails can have the paper/wet dog smell. They also can be oily, and will cloud up if you add some water to them. (a test you can do in a spoon, or rub it between your fingers to check for oiliness). Sometimes..it's very subtle and not so obvious...particularly with pot stills where it sort of smears all this together as opposed to a column which has much more ability to seperate things into various strata based on temp.

It's like trying to talk someone though how to play a guitar via email. You can explain it...but really..just doing it and practicing is the best way to experience it and learn it. Things that make no sense right now will start to have meaning and make more sense to you the more times you experience/do it. In that regard..the question we "all" had/have in this is ....am I doing it right or not? And in that, I suggest it is a very good idea to not be in too much of a rush and to suppliment your practice with re-reading the main site and questions here as you have. There are things there that are not going to click or make sense until you've got a little time under your belt.

Also, I would say...you are very fortunate to have had what sounds like like some experience otherwise (with wine, perhaps fermenting? oaking, etc.,). Any and all of that is useful and will further your understanding. Some of us had to start from scratch with everything

Post by **Usge** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:41 pm

To give you a clue....on 3 gals of 15%....on a potstill that can collect @ 85%. you should have collected about 1.9L total. If your potstill collects at 80% that would be over 2L.

You collected what? 850-900ml total? btw...I got the above figures off the main site under distilling your wash/how much to collect. There's an active chart there that you can input data and get results. That chart gives you an indication of what you might expect for any given run on any given efficiency type of still.

To make "cuts"...the idea is to run your still slow, to get as much separation as you can....toss the first 100ml per 5 gallons on a pot still as foreshots. From there...you should know that in theory...not always perfect..but in theory..you should be expecting somewhere about 1.9 to just over 2L of total output. (counting forshots you toss) on the amount you listed (3 gal @ 15% run in a pot still).

Pure ethanol has no smell or taste really. It's the esters and cogeners from heads and tails..that actuallly contain what gives it it's "flavors". Once you get over a certain %...really...you are talking neutral spirits that you flavor by addititves. That's why pot stills are more suited for producing flavored drink....because they are "NOT" so efficient as to strip/seperate everything.

So, given that your congeners and esters are passing through...the trick in "cuts"...the "art" to cuts...is to know from experience "just" how much of them (the heads and tails) to include in your middle cut...to get good flavor..without making it rancid or bitter or etc. That's the deal.

The first thing you should note in that is that it's also rather subjective. Everybody has different tastes. So, they suggest to start that you do very "conservative" cuts to start with...keeping very much in the "middle" of things until you learn more about the edges and where to they might fall.

Given your information here...I'd say...you never even made it to the middle/hearts before you stopped. What you are drinking is mostly heads.

barrelcreator · Post by **barrelcreator** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:24 am

WOW thanks for all the info

!!! I ended up with 750ml that I kept but I think I gave you bad info. that 750 didnt include the one cup at the head and the cup and a half at the end. Also the 2nd cup was runined when it went though the Brita water filter (learning from my mistakes already)

. So I would have to guess that beween the first, last and second cup that was tossed, there was another 500 ml or so tossed. The last cup didnt seem to have much alcohol at all. It had no legs on the glass and it was the cup that the cardboard smell was obvious in. This would indicate a finish right?

Given the amount I first gave you I can see your concern.... Sorry.

I have ordered mollassis, yeast, etc. for a rum wash and can't wait for it to get here.

I added some oak to the brandy last night and will pick up some raisins today. Hope I can make this stuff pleasant. Which brings me to yet another question. The alcohol percentage on this seems out of control, my wine hydrometer is useless and the high alcohol one is on the way but is there a way to literally control the proof or alcohol percentage while distilling? I cant seem to find any info on this. Thanks agin so much for all the advise

Post by **Usge** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:01 pm

proof it down with water and let it settle in before you oak it. Use your alc meter when you get it and add a little water (any clean water you like the taste of...many use bottled/spring water), to desired proof. Let it settle for a a few days. Then oak it. It works pretty much like you would think (ie..1/2 volume in water would cut proof about in half), but I would use the alc meter and go slow...checking taste/flavor as you went to make sure you don't over do it.

You can always add "more" water if you need. Not so easy the other way around.

barrelcreator · Post by **barrelcreator** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:55 pm

Thanks again. For all the help. Ill keep you posted on the batch and new ones...

Aidas · Post by **Aidas** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:58 pm

I oak right after dilluting, and I dillute right when I'm done with the run, so I think you're fine on that note.

As to dillution: when you get your spiritometer you'll be able to not only make better cuts, but also accurately dillute your product. Here's a very handy tool: http://homedistiller.org/distill/dilute" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Aidas

punkin · Post by **punkin** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:21 am

I use those two calculators all the time. Does anyone know how or where to get em so they'd be off line and just on my opening screen?

tracker0945 · Post by **tracker0945** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:10 pm

Punkin, if you have Microsoft Works or Excel on you computer, I can send them to you if you pm me with an email address for you.
I put the formula for those calculations as well as a few more into a small spreadsheet

punkin · Post by **punkin** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 2:52 am

Thanks mate, but they're on their way i think.

Will give ya hoi if i need to, thanks for the offer.

NeedAThumbsUpSmiliePunkin

barrelcreator · Post by **barrelcreator** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:35 pm

I ended up adding oak and raisins to the batch and it actually came out pretty good.

Update: Reflux distilled down 6 gallons of the same wine and ended up with .9 gallons of 83%. I refluxed at approx. 50 to 75 % ratio and I still ended up with a slight odor????? I thought if I refluxed there would be no odor. The batch was slow and never above 180F until the tails. ABout 2 to 3 drips per second. Im not complaining, it came out good but I probably need some advise on what to expect with flavor when I reflux.

I took the alc. and added oak. Let it sit for a bit and them mixed up a simple sugar syrup (icup sugar to 1/2 cup water), blended 1 cup mandarin oranges with a lil bit of mandarin orange juice. Added the puree to the sugar water, reduced a fair amount, added a small bottle of orange brandy essence, one once of glucose, carbon filtered the alc, blended the flavors in accordingly and HOLY (*&%)*&^ is this swill good. Can I technically call it mandarin orange moonshine or must it be called brandy. Anyone messed around with a similar recipe? Pretty good. I might be getting the hang of this slowely thanks to all the good advise on this site!!!

grainhopper · Post by **grainhopper** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:55 pm

punkin wrote:I use those two calculators all the time. Does anyone know how or where to get em so they'd be off line and just on my opening screen?

There is a link where you can download the entire site. Then you have all the info and the calculators at your disposal.

punkin · Post by **punkin** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:06 am

grainhopper wrote:
punkin wrote:I use those two calculators all the time. Does anyone know how or where to get em so they'd be off line and just on my opening screen?
There is a link where you can download the entire site. Then you have all the info and the calculators at your disposal.

Thanks GH, but a senior member of the site kindly came to an idiots aid and emailed me a shortcut to put on my desktop.
I just click and it takes me straight to what i want now.

May well download the site and save it to disc in case the unthinkable happens, is there another way to chip in for costs besides Paypal, been burnt by em once and me and Paypal had an insurmountable difference that wil not be overcome.....