Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby MashMan » Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:45 am

Dnderhead wrote:Iv used wiled yeast,bakers yeast, this year used Irish ale (come back in 4-5 years Ill let you know how it is) bakers yeast worked but I did not care for it.


Hi Dnder I'll probably forget to ask in 4 or 5 years, what didn't you like about the bakers and are you serious about the 4 or 5 years? I would expect to have an idea within a short time whether a particular yeast has desirable characters alcohol vs co2 production, aroma, flavour etc.

cheers.
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby Hillbilly Rebel » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:46 am

MashMan wrote:does anyone have an opinion on using bakers yeast for all grain, corn,rye etc mashes? i use bakers in sugar washes, mollases etc but my supply of ale yeast has dried up so to speak so looking for a cheap alternative.

thanks to all for the wisdom I have gained over the years from these forums :wink:


I do all grain, (corn). What works for me is a gallon of homemade malted corn and a pound of Baker's yeast in a 50 gallon fermenter, (189 liters). Quality of the product is first rate, I think so anyway.
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby I-GOR » Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:12 pm

Here's what I've been using. http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/4,10042.html

It's cheap, I've been repitching it so 1 lb goes a long way, it finish of dry very quickly.
But, to be honest with you, I think it produces a shallow flavor profile.
If I get some time I'd like to do identical side by side UJSM washes using distiller's yeast, baker's yeast and dry ale yeast.
Anybody tried this?
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby theholymackerel » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:15 am

I-GOR wrote: If I get some time I'd like to do identical side by side UJSM washes using distiller's yeast, baker's yeast and dry ale yeast.
Anybody tried this?


Not exactly like that, but I've done somethin' similiar.

It wasn't UJSM, I did 3 side by side ferments of 100% malted barley and use bakers yeast on one, a packet of Nottingham Ale Yeast on one, and a smack-pac of liquid ale yeast on the third.

After fermentin' the bakers yeast mash smelled sulphury and a bit "flat", the two Ale Yeast mashes smelled basically identical and both smelled tastier than the bakers yeast mash. After all three had been run through the still the mash fermented with bakers yeast was OK and had lost the sulphury nose, but not nearly as nice as the two ale yeast ferments. The two ale yeast ferments after bein' distilled were VERY nice with a fuller flavour and nose than the bakers yeast mash. The two ale yeast ferments were identical (to the best of my abilities) in smell and taste, and to this day I do whiskey mashes with dry ale yeast (no point in the six-times more expensive liquid yeast if it doesn't make a better product).
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby I-GOR » Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:57 pm

Thanks for the insights Mac. I'm going to try it too.
I went out an bought a bunch of sugar & yeast to get it started tonight. Hope I have enough containers. I notice a bunch of junipers looking heavy with berries (not quite ripe yet), so I think I'll cultivating any wild yeast they have and try it too. Don't have much corn on hand.

Gonna make up 4 batches, each 3/4 gal. backset, 4 gals water, 9 lbs sugar, teaspoon miracle grow, 4 lbs crack corn (all I have at home).
4 yeasts :

1. Distillers (dry)
2. Bakers (dry)
3. Nottingham Ale (dry)
4. Wild Juniper (I'll soak the berries in a starter wash over night then remove them)
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby MashMan » Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:19 pm

I-GOR wrote:Thanks for the insights Mac. I'm going to try it too.
I went out an bought a bunch of sugar & yeast to get it started tonight. Hope I have enough containers. I notice a bunch of junipers looking heavy with berries (not quite ripe yet), so I think I'll cultivating any wild yeast they have and try it too. Don't have much corn on hand.

Gonna make up 4 batches, each 3/4 gal. backset, 4 gals water, 9 lbs sugar, teaspoon miracle grow, 4 lbs crack corn (all I have at home).
4 yeasts :

1. Distillers (dry)
2. Bakers (dry)
3. Nottingham Ale (dry)
4. Wild Juniper (I'll soak the berries in a starter wash over night then remove them)


not trying to squash your experiment but I don't think 1lb of corn in 4 3/4 gallons with 9lbs of sugar is going to give much flavour. a typical ujsm is equal parts sugar and corn and a lower s/g than you propose. a 5gal ujsm would be more like 5 gal water/backset 7lbs cracked corn and 7lbs sugar.

Your last posts (I-GOR and the Mackeral) have inspired me to do a side by side myself, 20gal all corn, enzymes, s/g 1.050/1.060 dry bakers yeast in one and dry ale yeast in the other.I will get this down in the next week or so, run it a couple after that and post the results.


Anyone else have any all grain comparisons?
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby I-GOR » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:43 am

MashMan wrote:not trying to squash your experiment but I don't think 1lb of corn in 4 3/4 gallons with 9lbs of sugar is going to give much flavour. a


No worries, MashMan. I meant 4 lbs corn per batch, but what I had left in the bag worked out to 8.5 cups per about a 4.5 gallon wash (don't know how many lbs that works out to be). I aknowledge that I would've use more corn if'n I had it. I've been makin sugar wash so far this summer and it seems that a couple cups of crack corn is all it needs, along with a gallon or so of backset and a tablespoon of miracle grow - now that's a sugar wash, not UJSM.
I used 3/4 backset cause I only had 3 gallons.

The blue bucket's got red star quick rising baker's yeast, the black bucket's got Danstar nottingham ale yeast, the 10 gal white bucket's got distiller's yeast (see link above). I picked 1/2 cup of juniper berries last night, put them in a small starter wash but got no action from them this morning. If nothin's fizzin tonight I'll start the 4th bucket with Cote de Blanc just for the hell of it.

Last night I also ran off a sort of cherry vodka, I'll post it a little later on in the "what you make today" thread.

[later that same day.....] From cruising the net I see that 1 cu.foot of corn grits = 42 lbs. 1 gallon = 0.134 cu.ft., so 1 gallon of crack corn is somewhere in the neighborhood of 5.5 lbs (I'm guessing less because grits is ground finer), depending on moisture content. So, I probably put about 2.75 lbs of corn per batch. Looks like I'll need to buy some more corn tonight.
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby I-GOR » Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:36 am

Couldn't get a starting yeast from the juniper berries so I dumped them and just kept to the three yeasts going right now, nottingham ale, distiller's yeast and redstar quick start baker's yeast. I added a bit more corn to each bucket. The temp was 90 F when I pitched them, a little on the high side. The distiller's yeast took right off, the baker's yeast was slower and the nottingham was the slowest, taking several days to work up to a good fizz. It may be that the nottingham likes cooler temps.

All of them are fizzing away right now. I'll take the s.g. tonight. The distiller's yeast seems to be the most efficacious, and none are producing any objectionable smells, aside from a normal ferment.
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby I-GOR » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:48 pm

Checked the s.g. this morning and all of them were at 1.00, so they all finished up dry in about 5.5 days at 70 - 75 F temps. I can't tell you when the distiller's yeast finished because I was away camping last weekend.

Now the tricky bit, finding the time to run them all. It'll take a week or so before the taste test results come in.

BTW.... Rumbull did a mobedder job on yeast trials, his was for rum. Check it out if you're new here. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7678
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby Rod » Tue Jul 28, 2009 8:40 pm

[quote="poidog"]As a homebrewer, meadmaker and winemaker I'm pretty picky about which yeast I use for a particular recipe. It makes a big difference in the flavor profile of beverages to be consumed after fermentation.

But, at the advice of many on this forum I tried bakers yeast for making washes for distillation. Good advice!

I use Red Star Active Dry Yeast. It comes in 2lb packages for $5.59 where I shop. The ingredient label says "Yeast (sacchromyces cerevisiae)"
If I'm not mistaken that is the latin name for ale yeast.

This Red Star yeast kicks ass! It takes my WPOSW from O.G. 1.080 to F.G. 0.990 in about 72 hours (I think this yeast would attenuate the black off of a car tire if given the chance), then drops very clear in about 7 days.

I've used it on Pugirum and Deathwish Wheat Germ with excellent results too. No yeast-like flavors carried over into the distllate. I like it so much I'm trying it on a batch of macadamia blossom honey based mead to see what it will do. That mead is still fermenting (three weeks out), but the yeast looks like its behaving the same way it does in my washes, just a bit slower (mead O.G. 1.110).

At $5.59 for two pounds I pitch a half a cup of yeast into a 6.5 gallon batch. I rehydrate the yeast before pitching, and get positive pressure in the fermenter within about 5 minutes of pitching.

any one in Aus know the equivalent to red star here
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby I-GOR » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:41 pm

Ran the Nottingham's ale yeast ujsm style wash last night. At first blush, I like it. Seems a bit more mellow and grainier than the distiller's yeast. Also seemed to have a little less heads. But, gotta give me a couple of weeks.....................
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby MashMan » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:07 pm

Well I finally got the two 20gal side by side all corn washes to bed, I used crushed maize from freemantle stockfeeds, even after an overnight soak I had to cook the s*%#t out of it, 4 hours and still not fully gelatenised ?? usually I use kernals I grind myself and a couple of hours is more than enough in the steamer. I did two batches the same, 20% backset mile high enzymes ended up with a s/g 1.05. not the best conversion so not going to tell how much maize I used :oops:
pitched one with 50grms of notingham dry ale yeast and the other with two cups of pinacle bakers instant dry yeast this stuff is cheap $4 for 500g.
both are sitting on 20degc, this morning the bakers is twice as active.
will update when done and i've run em both.

cheers mashman.
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby Dnderhead » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:20 pm

I usually regrind corn I fiend most is not ground fine enough to suit me, and it does seem to make a big difference in cooking.
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby MashMan » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:41 pm

Dnderhead wrote:I usually regrind corn I fiend most is not ground fine enough to suit me, and it does seem to make a big difference in cooking.


thanks dnder, I didnt give it much thought at the time but i would usually grind a lot finer than what I used. i just did what I did because my mill is in dire need of maintenance waiting for a couple of bearings and a drive belt so I bought some already cracked ........maybe some patience is in order.
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby cousingary » Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:25 pm

Yup; I have used baker's yeast for about 35 years for wine and always liked the yeasty fragrance and decent ABV. Apple, pomegranite, apricot, grape, etc. I read that it only went to about 7% so I started using 13% wine yeast with so-so flavor results. Is the Fleischmann's yeast different now? I would use it again if it has a better top end for distilling...I can get it at Costco cheap. Please advise...Thank You...Gary
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby Dnderhead » Fri Aug 07, 2009 7:07 pm

It mite be one type of bakers yeast is different than others? Don't remember what brand I tryed, but it tasted like old bread.
and never tryed again. I cant afford throw out what iv invested in mash. besides I can make 100s of gallons of mash off one pack of yeast. so
why scrimp? I can have gallons of yeast in a month .whatever type I want. this year I used one pack of Scottish ail and did my years supply
of single malt mash. and have gallons of yeast left to start next time.next gizmo Id like is a stir plate.
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby MashMan » Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:51 pm

I guess I get lazy, run off a wash, run out of time, don't start up another batch or collect any yeast straight away and then a few days/week later decide to clean out the fermenter that never got sealed up properly and start over. yeh i've kept ujsm/yeast washes going for many many generations but they all come to an end sometime.
I guess dnder is right there is no need to use less than desirable yeast, just need more disipline in collecting and storing. going to get myself better set up in this department.
anyhow will post the results of the ale vs bakers when the results are in.
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby I-GOR » Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:33 am

Did a taste test last night. First, I ran the 3 samples as consistently as I could, taking my typical amounts for foreshot and heads. I collected down to about 50%+, put in a jug with lots of head room. I tasted them around 37%, white, no oak, room temp.

Distiller’s yeast : least amount of flavor grain or ester, in my opinion, but some corn flavor comes through, I think the tails tend to come through a little sooner. Because of this, the tails from the sugar start out perfumey and end cloying and strong (reminds my brother of grappa). Aside from this, had was the most neutral of the three but still has a "sharp" flavor. Don't know quite how to describe it.

Baker’s Yeast: aroma: not strongly pronounce (wine tasters would say it was
“dumb”), but had some grain-like aroma, a little vanilla-like. Don’t roll your eyes, but had a baked bread taste, reminded me of American whiskey’s that use a lot of wheat, finish had some corn, butter tones, slight burnt. (The wash did settle). On the finish, I can see why people use this for rum, it seemed like the initial flavors were light but the finish heavy.

Nottingham Ale Yeast: Very pronounced and spicy nose, reminiscent of rye, tequila.
Taste, esters really come through on the front, again a spicy, slightly pine (?) pleasant, then whisky-grain-corn, finishing with a sweet corn flavor.

All 3 were very sweet, as usual on singling runs. Distiller’s yeast is easy to use, but seems like has the shallowest flavor. Baker’s yeast seems to have less aroma, not as many up front esters, but a complex finish.

I gotta agree with HolyMac, the Nottingham’s was really the most rewarding, with a pleasant spicy ester aroma and taste up front, but delivering a corn-grain flavor later. It’s a lot of work, but I think doing a cook-an-convert mixed grain recipe like HolyMac (and co) do and using the Nottingham’s would be worth the effort.
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby muckanic » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:47 pm

I've started doing something recently that I had threatened to do for a long time, and that is playing around with a Belgian witbier yeast in my rums. Wash is all-molasses, 7-8% ABV. The original gravity attenuates 67%, so the molasses is probably a bit lighter than blackstrap. The yeast is a bit hard to replicate because I plated it out and picked off both a fruity and a sour (lactic) colony. The sour strain is probably yeast because it ferments like the clappers. Results? Well, loads of butter, but early in the run (contrary to the conventional wisdom that all the rum action is in the tails). Product below about 55% is completely uninteresting to me, and I have no desire whatsoever to recycle the tails. The tails aren't as strong as I am used to seeing with other washes and other yeasts, although I suspect that is where some of the clovey notes from the yeast are winding up.
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby I-GOR » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:55 am

muckanic wrote: Results? Well, loads of butter, but early in the run (contrary to the conventional wisdom that all the rum action is in the tails).


I believe the diacetyl ester responsible for the butter flavor blows off early, if the wash sits around a couple of days you'll lose it, so it's interesting to hear that you were able to capture it early in the run.

Here's something I just found about the actual chemistry behind the flavor of rum and other esters. It's a lab assignment, but gives good explanation of Fisher Esterification........

http://courses.chem.psu.edu/chem36/Web% ... 2Syn06.pdf
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby muckanic » Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:20 pm

I-GOR wrote:I believe the diacetyl ester responsible for the butter flavor blows off early, if the wash sits around a couple of days you'll lose it, so it's interesting to hear that you were able to capture it early in the run.


Diacetyl is actually a ketone if you can stand me getting technical about it. This series of brews had actually sat on the deposit for months after finishing fermentation in 2 weeks. I didn't use any nutrient but did use big yeast starters, equivalent to 15% of the brew. As always, it is hard to know what is yeast and what is ingredients. It could have been some sort of lactate ester. As a general rule, both witbiers and weizen beers need to be drunk young (within 6 weeks), as all the clovey phenol and banana ester dissipates rapidly. Brewers generally don't chase diacetyl. I dunno whether distillation preserves those flavours, and that is something I am interested in investigating.
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby mjdtexan » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:59 am

HookLine wrote:
shifty wrote:So if I use it in place of turbo yeast do I need to add some sort of nutrient?

Yes. Check the Tried & True recipes section. But various nutrients sources include, tomato paste, well cooked wheat germ, molasses, vitamin B tablets, dead yeast itself, and fertilisers such as DAP (di-ammonium phosphate) and magnesium sulphate (Epsom salts).


Really, dead yeast? I had not heard that. I've often wondered if there was a good thing to do with the dead wine yeast in the bottom of the carboys. Thanks for the tip.
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby HookLine » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:32 pm

mjdtexan wrote:
HookLine wrote:
shifty wrote:So if I use it in place of turbo yeast do I need to add some sort of nutrient?

Yes. Check the Tried & True recipes section. But various nutrients sources include, tomato paste, well cooked wheat germ, molasses, vitamin B tablets, dead yeast itself, and fertilisers such as DAP (di-ammonium phosphate) and magnesium sulphate (Epsom salts).


Really, dead yeast? I had not heard that. I've often wondered if there was a good thing to do with the dead wine yeast in the bottom of the carboys. Thanks for the tip.

Boil up some yeast to kill it, and it will provide pretty well all the nutrients the live yeast will need.
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Re: Bakers yeast v distillers yeast?

Postby Usge » Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:03 pm

Can't speak for the other yeasts...but WD whiskey yeast with AG...produces a very sweet smelling mash that has a tilt toward banana esters...which in my experience makes a good profile for a "whiskey". I was warned off of using any kind of bakers yeast early on (because it produces ester and congener profiles that taste funky) and just never tried it. I've heard of people experimenting with all sorts of brewers yeasts to get different' flavor profiles.

I tried to just use malt/wild yeast and never could get it going good enough and it smelled "sour". So, I dumped in the WD yeast and within a day it was sweet and smelled great.
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