Yeast farming (HowTo information wanted)

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Yeast farming (HowTo information wanted)

Post by Husker » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:54 am

Can someone familiar with this please explain "proper" yeast farming techniques?

If I were to do this (not knowing what I am doing), I would:

1. Select a good yeast (EC1118 or K1V16 or similar).
2. Take 2 gallons of water, add 3 lb of sugar. Boil and totally dissolve sugar, and sterilize the water.
3. Aerate this wash (carefully, to avoid any contamination).
(3a. Are any nutrients required at this time?)
4. At 80°F or less, pitch the yeast (two 5g sachets?) into about 1 Qt of this mix in a 2 Qt sterile jar. Allow this to "grow" for a couple hours, until it is really active.
5. Pitch this starter into the rest of the 2 gallon mix.
6. Allow this to "grow" for a couple of hours (until it is very active).
7. Bottle (pint?) up this "active" brew, into sterilized jars / bottles, and put into a cold fridge (can it be frozen?)
(7a. How long can this be stored?)
(7b. Can a bottle of this start the next yeast farming "batch"? If so how many generations can you do this for, prior to purchasing new yeast?)

Then, when starting a new fermentation batch, simply get the mash the proper temp, get a bottle of yeast up to proper temp, and pitch (with nutrients?)

-------------------------------

The above is my uneducated guess as to how to do this. Could someone with experience fill in the gaps (such as should yeast ghosts be added to your real mash prior to pitching, or if farmed yeast can be frozen, etc).


H.

PS, this would be nice to have Wiki page listing the proper information.

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Post by Watershed » Thu Oct 05, 2006 12:14 am

Some yeast will survive if you freeze it, to improve your chances adding 10% glycerol to the yeast will help things along. If you can snap freeze so much the better.

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Post by Husker » Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:58 am

Watershed
Some yeast will survive if you freeze it, to improve your chances adding 10% glycerol to the yeast will help things along. If you can snap freeze so much the better.
To freeze it, do you settle it in a cold enviornment (2° C or so), then remove the water, or simply freeze the whole mix?

H.

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Post by Watershed » Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:18 am

In the lab we'd spin it down, add glycerol and drop into dry ice or liquid nitrogen. At home I'd just collect sediment from a ferment, add glycerol to 10% and shove it in the freezer in small phials - 5mls in each phial. It never occured to me to try getting the poor buggers used to the cold first.

You only need a few cells to survive - provinding you're clean enough that they don't have to try to outcompete something else in the starter culture.

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Post by dr wacky » Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:51 pm

I've been experimenting with Fleishmann’s Dry Activated Yeast. I make
a 2 liter wash. 100-120 grams of sugar, 24ml tomato paste, one package
of Fleishmann’s Dry Activated Yeast, and enough water to bring upto
2 liters. I let it ferment until finished, decant about 500-600ml, shake up
the rest to suspend the yeast, and then pour it into three 16oz plastic
water bottles. Put bottles in refridgerator and use them just like a regular
package of yeast. I pour off as much of the 'beer' as I possibly can before
using it.

I understand these clones will last about 6 months in the refridgerator.
I've been using them far to quickly to test their life span. Longest one I've
set is about 2 months. Don't know about freezing, haven't really had the
need to store yeast that long.

I have had no problem starting a yeast ranch from ranched yeast. Just
substitute your package of yeast with a bottle from your yeast ranch. I
don't know how many generations, but so far I'm on my 6th or 7th and
I haven't yet noticed any appreciable decrease in yeast performance.
The goal is not to be cheaper. The goal is to be self sufficient.

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Post by erbachem » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:25 pm

Hiya,

Can anyone shed some light on the nutrients question? Is bunging yeast in with sugar enough? Can you buy bulk yeast nutrients from your local health food store?

I am currently running wahses in a 50L container which means that I should really be putting in two packs of yeast. My first few washes seem to have come through without problems but I'm wondering if I can improve things by adding more than just yeast and sugar.
ME

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Post by jmc91199 » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:04 am

Husker;
The yeast farming idea is what makes sourdough bread what it is. Basically a sour is just flour water and yeast. In fact I was looking to start my own sour and came across this page: http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/. He claims that his yeast culture dates back to 1847. If any body knows about yeast farming it would be the sourdough folks.
Dave's not here!

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Post by dr wacky » Fri Oct 27, 2006 5:59 am

Nutrients are as cheap and easy as your local grocery store.
Try tomato paste.
The goal is not to be cheaper. The goal is to be self sufficient.

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Post by Husker » Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:26 am

jmc91199:

Husker;
The yeast farming idea is what makes sourdough bread what it is. Basically a sour is just flour water and yeast. In fact I was looking to start my own sour and came across this page: http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/. He claims that his yeast culture dates back to 1847. If any body knows about yeast farming it would be the sourdough folks.
The "farming" I have been doing so far, has been from my UJ sour mash. I am racking off my primary mash at about 5 days, it is not quite done at that time. I put into 6 gallon carboy(s) and let it "finish" for 4 days or so. I end up with semi clear mash, and a layer of yeast in the bottom. I rack off the mash into the still, and carefully remove the spent yeast. Every other run of sour mash, I am adding the yeast back in (in dead form) as a nutrient for the sour mash. For that, I simply put the spent yeast from the last batch, into the microwave, and heat to boiling, then heat on defrost for about 2-3 minutes (watching to make sure I do not boil over). That quart mason jar is then capped, and cooled, and dumped back into the mash, as dead yeast nutrients.

Every 2nd generation of sour mash, I also am ending up with a yeast culture which is "not" used. I am simply putting that in the beer fridge. I have made 2 batches using this yeast, and it works GREAT (so far). I have made a very nice pumpkin juice mash (with some sugar), and a very nice rum wash. These have ripped and roared in just a couple of hours.

I am getting ready to switch my UJ sour mash fermentation container from a 7 gallon, to a pair of 21 gallon containers, so I imagine that I will have loads of "extra" yeast waiting for some sweet, aerated liquid to make a home in, and do its "business".

H.

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Post by tomslik » Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:14 am

Well I am pretty sure that nutrients are needed to culture yeast and I was hoping someone would chime in here with a little more "how to" cause I don't have experience doing this and don't know the amounts.

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Post by possum » Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:36 am

warm up 1 quart water on stove ,
add 1/4 lemon (squeze) then remove
add 1 pint of molassis
top up ( A CLEAN )1 gal container with cool water, but leave just @1pint empty.
cover and let it cool
hours or next day, open lid
close lid. shake shake shake
add yeast
put on ferment trap
in @ a week or so a layer of yeast will settle out

use extra liquid for hootch.
Hey guys!!! Watch this.... OUCH!

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Post by hornedrhodent » Sat Oct 28, 2006 6:45 am

What's the limiting factor - The amount of oxygen in the wash or the surface area on the bottom of the`jar. Does yeast breeding happen in a surface layer on the botton - or in a lot of isolated cells floating in the liquid. Does fermentation happen in a surface layer on the botton - or in a lot of isolated cells floating in the liquid.

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Post by rezaxis » Tue Nov 07, 2006 7:31 pm

Try the link below. This guy knows his bugs! The best part I saw was his explanation of how under pitching increases nasty things in your ferment, because yeast should be eating while in your mash, NOT reproducing! It's kind of a long read but it has some real "kitchen sink" kind of practical information. Worth the time. Check it out.

http://www.maltosefalcons.com/tech/MB_R ... turing.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow


Rez
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Post by tomslik » Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:46 am

I am SO suprised that not more people here know more about this. Yeast may not be overly expensive buit I would say that it has a fair portion of the dollar amount spent to make the product. I only know theory and it was my understanding that yeast needs oxygen and nutes to live and it is in an anaerobic(living in the absence of air or free oxygen) environment that it needs sugar to survive(in place of the oxygen)...this is how we get alcool. So nutes, airation and yeast SHOULD = more yeast. Do I have to experiment at this too! I will read that link...

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Post by Tater » Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:21 am

why dont ya try search on fourm instead of wining.Might find answers to your questions .http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 82&start=0
I use a pot still.Sometimes with a thumper

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Post by speedfreaksteve » Sat Nov 11, 2006 2:05 pm

tomslik wrote:I am SO suprised that not more people here know more about this. Yeast may not be overly expensive buit I would say that it has a fair portion of the dollar amount spent to make the product.
Based on that statement, you're probably the only one on here that spends a significant portion of money on yeast. 95% of the time I just make a yeast starter from whatever I fermented last. This costs me about 10 cents in lemon juice and sugar to do. I went about 5 years once and made about 60 batches of wine without buying a single packet of yeast along the way.

Another very important tip to remember that also applies to breadmaking:

If you double or triple a recipe, in the vast majority of cases you don't need to double or triple the amount of yeast.

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Post by Jeremy » Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:56 am

tomslik wrote:I am SO suprised that not more people here know more about this. Yeast may not be overly expensive buit I would say that it has a fair portion of the dollar amount spent to make the product. I only know theory and it was my understanding that yeast needs oxygen and nutes to live and it is in an anaerobic(living in the absence of air or free oxygen) environment that it needs sugar to survive(in place of the oxygen)...this is how we get alcool. So nutes, airation and yeast SHOULD = more yeast. Do I have to experiment at this too! I will read that link...
The yeast do different things aerobicly and anaerocially. They cannot do both at once. It can hurt your fermentation if oxygen is added any other time than when the yeast is pitched.

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Post by pintoshine » Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:02 pm

The beer guys got the distiller guys beat when it comes to yeast. I guess they get bored with no equipment to play with.

Realizing that we are making hopless(not hopeless) beer(wash) to purify, and also realizing that great wash makes great booze, maybe there are some good lessons here.

http://www.amazon.com/New-Complete-Joy- ... F8&s=books
This book "The New Complete Joy of Home Brewing" Second Edition, has a great short chapter on culturing yeast.

This is one of my personal favorites:
http://hbd.org/brewery/library/yeast-faq.html

http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/ap42/ch09/ ... 9s13-4.pdf
This document from the EPA gives a very good description of the industrial processes used to produce bakers yeast.

For a real production description try this one.
http://www.dakotayeast.com/yeast_production.html

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Post by grunther777 » Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:34 pm

tater wrote:why dont ya try search on fourm instead of wining.Might find answers to your questions .http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 82&start=0
Talk about whining tater....I think I see this post of yours in every thread....Isn't this a forum for discussion???

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Post by possum » Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:42 pm

The search function really is your friend.
When you hear " can I use Arsenic coated galvo-coated Aluminum plasticized window screens for my packing material ?" a few thousand times, it does get on the nerves.

Notice, Tater did provise a link.

Anyway, I have been keeping my beer yeasts in a "bank" of starter jars in my cousins fridge.
I wish I still had a colony of the Whitelabs High Gravity yeast.
On Pothead's advice, I have been using regular baker's yeast for awhile lately, and it works pretty good...but it still isnt the Whitelabs High Gravity yeast, that stuff runs like a cat on fire (I don't especially hate cats, just a metaphore). I got 20+% abv on washes made with that stuff.
Hey guys!!! Watch this.... OUCH!

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Post by Tater » Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:03 pm

grunther777 wrote:
tater wrote:why dont ya try search on fourm instead of wining.Might find answers to your questions .http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 82&start=0
Talk about whining tater....I think I see this post of yours in every thread....Isn't this a forum for discussion???
. IT sure is and if we can get some of you newbies to read a bit before leaping in We could have some great discussions.If some of the guys would read enough to know what they was even asking.Thats why I put the links in my signature.And if you stay on fourm youll see it some more .And please next time you have a comment for me .Im me start a new thread but dont hijack a tread of someone else.sorry erbachem
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Post by Pikluk » Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:48 am

anyone tried to put a little yeast in some sugar water with tomato paste
in a gallon jug "filled 3/4" with a aquarium pump?

from what i understand "iv been reading and reading for a few weeks now... still a noob tho" on that note thanks to all of you guys iv learned some much on this site/forum.

back to the subject. yeast need o2 to buds so if you put some with nutrient and some sugar and keep o2 in there they should not try to work much but only to multiplies?


let say im looking at BW recipe sugar,tomato paste and lemon juice and he puts about half a pound of yeast for 80l about 56g for 20l.

lets say i put 5g in 3l of sugar/tomato paste water with a air pump how much time will it take to multiply so i have enough for a good speed mash?

im looking at this cause the only source of yeast i found "yet" is about 5$ for 113g. i know in the big scem of thing its not that much vs what it gives but if i can do a batch with 25c of yeast instead of $2.50, i say why not.

i can easily get ec-1118 tried a few batch with it, so slow... maybe its the fact that i only tried one or two packs, i thought that if i needed to use more than 2 pack it just wouldn't worth it.
maybe if i was making brandy or wine but im aiming for pure/95% alchool,
at least for now.

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Post by Pikluk » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:39 am

i did try it but with no success

putted 10g of bakers yeast with 3litre of water 1/2 cup of sugar 2 big spoon of tomato paste in a 1 gallon jug with a air pump for 12 hours then droped it into a sugar mash "bw" airlock started 3 hours later slow
next morning still slow
added more yeast...

i did that in my basement it already pretty cold this time of year.
pumping cold air trough it maybe...

i dont know just shairing info
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Post by frikz » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:43 am

I'm thinking of getting an aeration pump with a 0.2 micron filter and ceramic air stone to use while growing yeast:

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/6610/0570150wk5.jpg

Will that enhance the growth process?

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Post by Husker » Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:27 am

frikz wrote:I'm thinking of getting an aeration pump with a 0.2 micron filter and ceramic air stone to use while growing yeast:

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/6610/0570150wk5.jpg

Will that enhance the growth process?
A setup like that should allow you to grow very good starter yeast batches.

Be sure to run the input tube (and an output tube or airlock) though a holed stopper, to keep your yeast culture pure.

H.

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Post by Pikluk » Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:28 pm

where do you get a filter like that?
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Post by frikz » Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:07 am

They have this one at Brouwland, a Belgian homebrewing shop. It's sold as a beer wort aerator. http://www.morebeer.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow sells similar wort aeration systems.

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Post by Pikluk » Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:43 am

thank you
will check local brew shops
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Post by cannon.co.tn » Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:47 pm

Sorry to jump in so late Husker.

The yeast can go dormant for a few weeks or even months at refrigerator temperatures.

Freezing should be left to creating a "yeast bank" in which you only freeze a very small amount of yeast and then grow, through a number of successively larger batches, a full sized starter. You'll only get a relatively small amount to survive anyway and the faster freezing time of a smaller sample will mean a higher percentage are likely to survive and since you will have to cultivate a small amount into a larger amount anyway it's a lot easier and takes less space. As someone else pointed out glycol will help reduce the creation of crystals and kill fewer yeast cells.

The best thing to do when re-growing your small sample (or for making other starters really) is to use a stir plate it will keep the yeast up in the column where they have access to the nutrients/food and will also keep the starter aerated which will keep the yeast in reproduction mode. On http://www.homebrewtalk.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow there are a number of thread on building a cheap stirplate.

As for overpitching. There is an optimal pitching rate for beermaking where you do not want a fermentation to be too clean. The by-products of the growth phase of yeast are desired in beer to some extent. Too much isn't such a good thing but too little (or too clean a ferment) is also considered a fault in the beer. Different people have different opinions on pitching rates Jamil Z. (http://www.mrmalty.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow) has a pitch calculator on his website. For a differing opinion listen to the podcast with Chris White of white labs on http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow he recommends a lower pitching rate than Jamil for a number of good reasons.
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Post by RadicalEd1 » Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:59 am

Just saw this thread now and I thought I'd expand on cannon's post.

Here's a link to a fantastic guide to making a frozen yeast bank (with pics!):

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread. ... yeast+bank" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

And here's a link to a super cheap and easy stirplate, bar none the best way to up your yeast count:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=8850" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

And yes, it's also a good excuse for us beer types to get more gadgets :D.

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