Do Amylase enzymes reproduce, like yeast does?

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Do Amylase enzymes reproduce, like yeast does?

Postby MikeyT » Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:31 am

Trying to get a handle on how much to use. Searches here and with google turned up nothing.
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Postby junkyard dawg » Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:08 am

No they don't. I use amylase powder from the brewshop from 1 to 5 teaspoons per gallon of grain mash. I use it if an iodine test shows a lot of starch after my grain mashing. Never had good yields mashing with the enzyme alone, got better yields with 6 row...
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Postby stoker » Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:35 am

yeast lives, enzymes don't
-I have too much blood in my alcohol system-
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Postby wineo » Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:57 pm

Its 1-2 teaspoons for 5 gallons,but you can use more.I used 2 ounces of it,and 8 beano tablets to convert 15 pounds of rice,for some rice wine I made.I got about 50% conversion,not great,but not bad for rice.I use it on corn and unmalted grains,and adding beano helps.I know beano is more costly,than 2 or 6 row malt,but for some recipes where you dont want the malt flavors,it works.It will help when useing malted grains also.
I buy it by the pound.
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Postby MikeyT » Mon Apr 16, 2007 4:22 pm

wineo wrote:Its 1-2 teaspoons for 5 gallons,but you can use more.I used 2 ounces of it,and 8 beano tablets to convert 15 pounds of rice,for some rice wine I made.I got about 50% conversion,not great,but not bad for rice.I use it on corn and unmalted grains,and adding beano helps.I know beano is more costly,than 2 or 6 row malt,but for some recipes where you dont want the malt flavors,it works.It will help when useing malted grains also.
I buy it by the pound.
wineo


Ok, I gues that raises the next question. Does malted barley impart a flavor in distilled spirits that is different from un-malted barley? Or, do the enzymes in malted barley just contribute to the alcohol production?
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Postby wineo » Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:53 pm

Malted and unmalted barley both impart flavors in pot still runs.There is probably a small difference in their flavors.Malted barley has much more diastic power,than unmalted barley.6 row malted barley has the highest diastic power,more than 2 row,but 2 row will work.
Unmalted barley does not have enough enzymes to convert its self,and must be mashed with some 2 or 6 row malt.The enzymes used in mashing,convert the unfermentable starches into fermentable sugars.Once fermentation has began,those sugars are converted by the yeast into alcohol,and co2.The stuff that didnt get converted in the mash,{dextrins} impart flavors.{You cant get 100% conversion,only 75-80% at best} Im going to make oat whiskey,and Im not going to use malted barley for conversion in the mash,because I dont want the barley flavors to overpower the oat flavor.I will precook the milled whole oats,and mash it with amelaze enzymes,and beano.Sorry for being so long winded!
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Postby MikeyT » Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:40 pm

No problem! I need all the 'wind' I can get to understand this stuff.

I'm going to try the Amylase in the corn mash before the boil, then rye and malted barley after the boil. If I can't tell the difference in flavor, then that will save on the malted barley.

Gotta quit playin for a week though. Gotta go up to Okie land.
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Postby possum » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:02 pm

Corn takes awhile to rehydrate and then gelatinize...if you put the enzyme in before you get the corn soft, then you are just going to deactivate the enzymes. See, heat both activates the enzymes, and also breaks them down.
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Postby wineo » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:32 pm

If you boil amelaze,or malt you will kill the enzymes.Boil the corn first,cool to 152f and put in the malted barley,unmalted barley etc. Do this in a cooler if you have one.The enzymes in malt will denature at 159-160f so if you do this in a pot,and add heat,you have to stir constantly,and dont let it get above 158f,or you will kill your enzymes.Cover,Wait for 90 min. and check your temp.When it drops to 140f,add the amelaze enzyme,because its denatured above 140f and works best at this temp.The beano works best in this range too.Dont get them too hot. The enzymes will keep working at room temps.I do mashes in a cooler,so it stays hot for a long time.I leave mine in there till the next day,and its still warm.{when making whiskey}
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Postby MikeyT » Mon Apr 16, 2007 9:27 pm

Possum, Wineo

The recipe I was following said to bring the water up to 162, shut off the fire, then add the corn and stir it in. By then the temp will be down around 150°. Add the 6-row barley and let it set for 1 hour at 148°. THEN, slowly bring it up to a boil and slowly boil for 30 min to 1 hr until the mash has gelatinized.

Yes, this will kill those enzymes. but after the mash has gelatinized and quickly cooled down to 148°, then add the last half of the 6-row barley. Stir it in and let it set for 90 minutes while maintaining the temp at 148. Cool down to pitching temp and add the yeast.

This recipe said this first partial conversion would make the mash less difficult to work with when it starts getting thick. (make it less thick)

So, what I was thinking, was to put amylase in for the first partial conversion, and 6-row malted barley in for the final conversion. (to save money)

Now, if the corn mash doesn't get to thick, then all the above would be a moot point. Boil the corn, cool it down, add the barley and whatever.

Will the corn mash get to thick when boiling if I don't do the first partial conversion? I've never tried it.
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Postby junkyard dawg » Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:41 am

Sounds like an un needed step to me. If you simply boil the water or backset, add the corn and simmer it for an hour or so then you will see the corn gelatinize. Its an obvious change. The cracked corn will no longer be hard, but soft and slick if you squeeze on it. Next add the barley, let it cool and add the malted barley when you get to the right temp. You can use some amylase powder at this point, if you need it. If you don't use too much corn then you won't have trouble with it being too thick.
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Postby wineo » Tue Apr 17, 2007 6:48 am

The only part that I dont get,is the partial conversion.I can see no reason for stopping the enzymes,only to restart them again,with less enzymes.It seems like a waste of malt.When you boil your corn,dont cook it till it turns to mush,and you wont have a problem,Use alot of water,in a big pot,and when its done,if you have too much water,then get rid of some.Are you fermenting on the grain?
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Postby jake » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:16 pm

once upon a time; not long ago. before I discovered this site
I set to mash 8lbs of corn with 2lbs of malted barly.
once the corn was cooked I didnt think it was thick as it should be, so I added a 1lbs box of corn starch. things got thick in a hurry but not unmanagable. nice big glob of starch. I let it cool 155f. stired in the crushed malted barly; the enzyms went to work and every thing thined out.
wraped my pot in an old sleeping blanket for couple hours to let the enzyms do there magic. every thing worked out well. fermented on the grain. didnt do an iodine test though wonder what my conversion was with that corn starch
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Postby schnell » Tue Apr 17, 2007 1:41 pm

the enzymes will work at lower temperatures, just not as fast. if you're leaving them in the soup along with the grain they'll keep working. for days even.

if you denature them with too much heat they are destroyed and do you no good whatsoever.

by the way: enzymes are just proteins that have catalytic effects. different enzymes catalyze different reactions.

almost all proteins are destroyed by excessive heat.
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