Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

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Hillbilly Popstar
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Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

Why not lager?
I see a ton of people limiting themselves to only mashing during certain times of the year due to temperature constraints.
A good lager yeast is happy happy around 40-50 degrees f.

I'm also curious if the ethanol content of a lagered product would be different. Iirc the general rule of thumb is that a slow, cooler ferment produces more alcohol and the "less stressed" yeast produce less off flavoring compounds. I wonder how that rule transfers to lagering?
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by Swedish Pride »

not yet but will for my next batch as the bakers are not happy in the cold.
I'm sure It will be grand, I'm not good enough to tell the difference from yeast to yeast, but will get back to you once done.
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by NZChris »

Once. It took a month to get to 1.009. I had been going to lager it before stripping, but I needed the incubator back for another project.
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

NZChris wrote:Once. It took a month to get to 1.009. I had been going to lager it before stripping, but I needed the incubator back for another project.
Yeah, it's slow.

But was there any difference in the resulting hooch?
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by moered »

I would sure love to hear the results of this one. I am looking for a yeast that does well fairly low temps.
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by still_stirrin »

Hillbilly Popstar wrote:...Yeah, it's slow....But was there any difference in the resulting hooch?
If you follow the protocol for lager fermentation and cold lagering, your ester production will be very, very low. The results, when run through the still will be less heads and more hearts. Also, lagers tend to reduce dextrins better than ales, so you could actually terminate drier....again good for distilling.

But...the biggest component (not considering refrigeration or at least cold cellaring costs) is TIME. And the bottom fermented yeasts need a lot more time than ales. The commercial guys don't use lager yeasts for this very reason (cost of delayed production rate capability, occupied vessels, cycle-time, etc).

So you can, and should try it if you're curious. Do it for a series of runs (multiple ferments) and see how you like it. And report back with your obstacles, observations, and recommendations.
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by still_stirrin »

Oh, and another thing to consider for lager yeasts, depending on your mash/brewing processes, long lags at the start of fermentation would open the risk to wild yeasts and bacterial ferments. This would be especially a concern if you ferment "on the grain" and/or don't do a sterilization boil with your wort before fermentation. The general processes of distillers relys on the quick action of the yeast to take over the ferment. "Low and slow" would be vulnerable.
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

Well, old habits die hard..
I use/plan on using many of the steps from my home brew days when making a wash, even if not necessary for distillation.

One theme I see ringing through on this forum time and time again is quality over quantity. I am surprised that this song is less sung when it comes to yeasts, and sugars as well. Why be so super careful making cuts if we didn't ensure the largest portion of hearts by using a better yeast strain or choosing a sugar that ferments out perfectly into ethanol (dextrose)?
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by masonsjax »

Lager yeasts also require a huge amount of yeast compared to ales. I always step up my lager starters several times just to pitch a 5 gallon batch, then use that cake to pitch into another 10-15 gallons.
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by NZChris »

Hillbilly Popstar wrote:Well, old habits die hard..
I use/plan on using many of the steps from my home brew days when making a wash, even if not necessary for distillation.

One theme I see ringing through on this forum time and time again is quality over quantity. I am surprised that this song is less sung when it comes to yeasts, and sugars as well. Why be so super careful making cuts if we didn't ensure the largest portion of hearts by using a better yeast strain or choosing a sugar that ferments out perfectly into ethanol (dextrose)?
Doing really slow ferments and experimenting is fine once you have drinking likker in your cellar, but for beginners, I say do some large fast ferments to build up some stock so that they're not tempted to be suckin on the spout every time they run. The cheapest yeast often has the best qualities for that purpose. Dextrose is expensive and I'm not aware of any difference other than a small speed advantage for using it. I convert the best quality cane sugar I can get by dumping hot backset or dunder on it when doing sugarheads.

The lager style I tried never got lagered because I needed the fridge to incubate some Swiss cheese at a temperature way different to anything else I had going at the time. It wasn't so amazingly different that I felt the urge to do such a small spirit run, so it went through with the next set of low wines.
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

I understand. I have 6 gal. of sugar(dextrose) and malt wash in the clearing carboy now. Hoping to strip it before the end of the week. It'll be something for me to practice making good cuts on, and to play with flavoring while I start researching more complex recipes like a lager or an ag.
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by NZChris »

Hillbilly Popstar wrote:I have 6 gal. of sugar(dextrose) and malt wash in the clearing carboy now. Hoping to strip it before the end of the week.
This is a typical example of an ale protocol that is unnecessary in distilling. There is nothing to be gained by it, it may even produce inferior product. With a suitable boiler, you can run with the grain in the boiler, how cleared is that?

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My first fermenter held up to four still charges and I have never regretted going to that size. Thirty five years later, it is still my main fermenter. One ferment, then one weekend of hard out distilling, and I can have nearly enough likker for a year. My 6 gallon fermenters mostly get used for experiments, making backset & dunder, and opportunistic fruit brandies coz I haven't learned how to say 'no'. E.g. I just put down a small rye sugar wash to add to two distiller's UJSSM feints for a large but cheeky faux whiskey feints run that will need very long aging. Fingers crossed.
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

Well the clearing or secondary ferment isn't just about clearing things up. It's also about getting the beer/wash off of the trub. Dead yeast tends to decay and give off unwanted compounds. Are those compounds filtered out by distillation or do they add to the heads or tails of a run?

I am new, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but it does seem that many of the methodologies used by beer makers could also be used to increase the potential hearts contained in a wash.
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

My main fermentation had finished but there was clearly still small amounts of activity in the wash. Perhaps the yeast were taking longer to break down some of the more complex sugars used? At any rate I did not want to leave the newly fermented wash sitting on a bed of trub while it finished. Maybe after a few washes I will see otherwise and simplify things. But for now this is at least a good way to learn.
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by still_stirrin »

Hillbilly Popstar wrote:Well the clearing or secondary ferment isn't just about clearing things up. It's also about getting the beer/wash off of the trub. Dead yeast tends to decay and give off unwanted compounds. Are those compounds filtered out by distillation or do they add to the heads or tails of a run?
Well, for a beer you are concerned about the flavor of the ferment...because that is what you drink. The product will be kegged or bottled and may be stored for a long time before consumption. Off flavors will be very noticeable in a beer. (point of reference here...have you ever had a "cask-conditioned" beer? You definitely can taste the yeast in there, can't you?)

Off flavors (yeast poop as it is called in these forums) in the trub isn't near as critical if you're going to distill the ferment in a day or two. If the ferment is going to set for months, well then maybe you want to get the liquid off of the trub before it begins to autolize.

And when distilling, the ferment is just the supplier of the alcohol. The yeast cells won't contribute much flavor to the vapor unless it is scorched. So a little clearing is good. But it certainly isn't as critical as when making beer, where the flavor is defined at this point.

Another point, when you do a secondary ferment, you are indeed completing the fermenting process even as the progress slows down as the yeast near completion of consuming and converting the available fermentable sugars. This period can be quite long.

When distilling, it is optimum to get the ferment "terminal" as quick as possible thereby converting the sugars to alcohol so they can be recovered. Long drawn out ferments seem to be time-wasteful to the distiller. Healthy active ferments which drive the gravity down quickly allow the distiller to fill the fermenter again quicker and get more product into and out of the still faster.

To answer your final question, the distillation will separate some of the fermentation flavor by products, but not all. For chemicals with a boiling point higher than the alcohol (and water, for that matter) the flavors will accumulate and stay in the boiler. Separating them by clearing is not as important. On the other hand, some flavors of fermentation have boiling points below ethanol and those will come through in the vapor foreshots and early heads. Those should be collected and eliminated.

This thread started with the merits of lager yeast for distiller's fermentation. As I stated earlier, lager yeasts tend to ferment cleaner with less ester production. But they also ferment much slower, especially towards the latent (secondary) fermentation phase. Some lager yeasts tend to produce diacetyl (butter-like aroma and flavors) as well, which may or may not be desirable in a product to be distilled. So, typically ale yeasts (and baker's yeast) are favored for grain ferments. Fruit ferments favor strains of wine yeast because they augment the fruit flavors. And for sugar washes either can be used if desired. Regardless, the flavors of the mash/wash (ferment) will vary with the selection. And the processes will vary as well. Ultimately, yeast selection does affect the final spirit flavor and aroma.
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

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Hillbilly Popstar wrote:Well the clearing or secondary ferment isn't just about clearing things up. It's also about getting the beer/wash off of the trub. Dead yeast tends to decay and give off unwanted compounds. Are those compounds filtered out by distillation or do they add to the heads or tails of a run?

I am new, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but it does seem that many of the methodologies used by beer makers could also be used to increase the potential hearts contained in a wash.
The burnt rubber smell of autolysis comes over with the hearts. I've only had it once in a distillation, an experimental ferment that it is very unlikely you will ever replicate.
The last time I tasted it in a lager was in a commercial lager where the brewer was using a solera type system in a conical largering tank that I suspected wasn't getting rid of enough yeast. I've heard that they are in receivership. I'll knock on their door next month for an update.
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

Thank for all the info.
When I first decided to get into distilling I figured it would be a hop, skip, and a jump from brewing. But the more I learn, it's more like a leap, sprint, and long car ride down the road. The only thing I may be able take with me from my home brew days is equipement. Lol
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by NZChris »

If you do AG, your experience will be invaluable. The problems arise when newbies mash together incompatible methods to come up with new, improved, protocols to make better product than everyone else. :D

I don't see any reason why a low temp ferment and largering of an AG can't make very fine product, but the brewer would have to just as fussy about hygiene as they are for a larger. It might be easier for the distiller, because there is no need for racking. If the temperature can be controlled from fermenting to lagering without disturbing the mash that would be a bonus. 6 gallons isn't much though. Enough for an experiment and loosing that much isn't a big deal, but if you are going to tie up a heated and refrigerated incubator for the length of time required, you do want a decent amount of product for your trouble.
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

Not to derail my own thread. But mind sharing a pic of your fermenter?
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by NZChris »

It's a 25 gallon SS milk can that predates the use of milk tankers. I have another that takes three elements for use as a mash tun.

I've recently found a source of cheap 100l food safe drums that just happen to fit inside a freezer that just happens to be sitting idle. I've got a couple. but I don't have any plan to ferment in them at the moment. I'm busily getting the equipment together to use one for a cheese vat.
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by yammit »

Would be interesting to try it out. You would definitely need a ton of yeast and a much longer fermentation time. What about using something like White Labs Cal Ale yeast? It is a good clean fermenter with little to no esters to add to the heads, and can be finished out in a couple of weeks vs 4-6 weeks. Also take into consideration that a lot of lager yeasts will throw out diacytel so it would be wise to bring up the temp towards the end to around 65 degrees for a few days so the yeast can scrub it out of solution.
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

I thought higher temps will stress the yeast into producing other compounds?

Can you further explain how yeasts "scrub" out unwanted organic compounds?
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by masonsjax »

Yeast are amazing little creatures. They can secrete acids and other compounds that fine tune the environment to their liking. When finished eating, they clean up byproducts and build their energy reserves in preparation for a potentially long period of dormancy before their next meal. Lager yeasts can produce some diacetyl during the fermentation process, which they will go back and clean up once the main fermentation slows. At this point you can raise the temp of your wash to somewhere just north of 70F to encourage cleanup before they go to sleep.
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by Hillbilly Popstar »

That's incredible. I should learn more about yeasts.
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by DFBrews »

Through my various professional brewing contacts I have been told stranahans uses a brewery conditioned lager yeast and ferments if at 65 degrees to get some fruity esters
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by engunear »

My concerns would be twofold: 1. Less esters equals less flavour; 2. Making an interesting whiskey is partly about getting the bacteria/yeast proportion right. Too few bacteria leads to a boring whiskey and too much leads to a stuck ferment with low pH, and a high lactic acid distillate. So when you say "slow ferment" the alarms go off for me. But maybe you can find the proportion by being more sterile to begin with.

I came across this thread trying to find a yeast comparison as I have just completed a run based on a Belgian beer yeast that is just outstanding. The yeast was cultured from the dregs of an outstanding home-brew. Its got corn, barley and wheat, so its a real mongrel of a whiskey.

Previous batches have been using the Still Sprits Whiskey yeast and am stunned the change made so much difference. If anyone knows a discussion just on this I'd appreciate a pointer. Searches for "yeast", "yeast comparison" etc get so many hits they are useless.
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by thecroweater »

That depends on your end goal, most want a fine drink good to drink in a 6 to 12 months and better from there. More complex flavours take more aging which if you got 5,10,15 years to spare is no big deal but most have no intention of waiting that long, some may not even be around then.
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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by engunear »

Where I'm fully aware of the "own alcohol" syndrome, where one prefers stuff that one made even when its total crap, I also found myself last night turning to the 2 week old Belgian yeast un-oaked whiskey in preference to a Highland Park 12yo. But as I age, my sense of smell is falling so bigger is better.

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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by waffletalk »

As a professional brewer..(i am) I would suggest that lager yeasts can and will be successful for cold fermenting in the winter. Things of note.

You need to pitch at least twice as much to four times as much yeast as you would for an ale. This is particularly true if your starting gravity is over 15 degrees Plato.
You need to add some type of yeast nutrient. Pick your poison. I use yeast ex at a rate of 3g/Hl.
You need to add oxygen to your wort. Lager yeast is finicky, and will only reproduce at about half the rate of an ale yeast. To complete fermentation you need to start with a healthy pitch.

We knockout our wort at 52 degrees F professionally , ferment at 56, and then go through a slow cool down phase of four degrees per day once attenuation is reached until transfer and crop at 32 degrees.
Many lager breweries have different fermentation protocols including transferring to a bright or conditioning tank before fermentation is finished to allow for carbonation in the tank.

Lager yeasts are not often used for the production of high gravity worts. It is possible, and there are a few commercial examples, but finding a lager that produces something over 10% is frankly rare.

Lager means "to store". It is also a genus of yeast. You can "lager" an ale, but you can't make a lager without a lager yeast.

I find that lager yeasts take an additional 7-10 days to finish fermenting, but including that additional time in the fermenter they need another 6-8 weeks of rest post fermentation or the sulphur compounds don't clean themselves up and the beer isn't ready for drinking.

It's up to you if you want to distill something that isn't ready for drinking.

Lager yeasts traditionally produce fewer esters than ale yeasts, and taste more like the ingredients they are made with. If you use cheap ingredients, an ale yeast may mask those flavors, a lager yeast will emphasize them. I have no idea how this translates to distillation.

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Re: Anyone ever use any lager yeasts?

Post by Steep-n-Rocky »

Though not a lager yeast, my winter yeast is now T-58 by Safbrew. It seems to work in the low 60's F, albeit slow, I seem to get good flavor and production with it too. When warm enough I am a Red Star bakers yeast fan but this extends my season.
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