pectolytic enzyme

These little beasts do all the hard work. Share how to keep 'em happy and working hard.

Moderator: Site Moderator

Post Reply
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

pectolytic enzyme

Post by Pikey »

To use or not to use ?

Recently I have seen a thread where it was advise NOT to use pecto enzyme as the "broken down cell walls get converted to Methyl alcohol" - I think that was the gist of it. [Edit - I found thsi a little "counter intuitive " at the time]

Now I think we accept that pectin bearing fruits generate more methanol than non-pectin washes, even if we also accept that there is no "danger" associated with the levels so produced.

I see on Paulinka's brilliant dissertation thread http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 38&t=48526, he recommends pectic enzyme in the "Cherry" section (I think it is the third lecture)

So my question / quandry is whether 'tis better to attack the pectin with the enzyme, or to leave well alone and let the methanol process go ahead ? I know that pecolytic enzyme does help to prevent "Pectin haze" in wines and I have a good source of free plums if I can be bothered to collect them and process. Plum is one of the wines known to suffer from pectin haze and I would like to try and go down the Palinka route this year with them.
User avatar
dieselduo
Rumrunner
Posts: 714
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:36 am
Location: Florida

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by dieselduo »

I always use pectolase enzymes when making fruit brandies. It really enhances the flavors that come across. If you're worried about the extra methanol just make a larger heads cut
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by NZChris »

It depends on the fruit, and I suppose, how you are going to drink the product. If you intend to get smashed on it every day, using enzymes might not be too clever.

I have a fruit, feijoa, that is damned near impossible to press before, or after, fermentation without using enzymes, so I have used them for that. The tails, where methanol concentrates, went in my compost, not in my feints collection.
I tried them again this year, but instead of treading them and adding enzymes, I sliced them open, discarding the ends, put them in a sugar wash, fermented, then stripped with the fruit in the boiler.
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by Pikey »

NZChris wrote:It depends on the fruit, and I suppose, how you are going to drink the product. If you intend to get smashed on it every day, using enzymes might not be too clever.

I have a fruit, feijoa, that is damned near impossible to press before, or after, fermentation without using enzymes, so I have used them for that. The tails, where methanol concentrates, went in my compost, not in my feints collection.
I tried them again this year, but instead of treading them and adding enzymes, I sliced them open, discarding the ends, put them in a sugar wash, fermented, then stripped with the fruit in the boiler.
So how did the flavour come out using them as flavour for a sugar wash, as opposed too your previous Chris ? or is it too early to tell yet ?
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by Pikey »

dieselduo wrote:I always use pectolase enzymes when making fruit brandies. It really enhances the flavors that come across. If you're worried about the extra methanol just make a larger heads cut
What confuses me Dd is the fact that we "know" pectin makes methanol, but we seem to fight shy of pectic enzyme, which should methinks REDUCE methanol - thanks for your comparison - did you do "side by side" tastings, or is it more an "impression" ?
User avatar
dieselduo
Rumrunner
Posts: 714
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:36 am
Location: Florida

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by dieselduo »

Pikey wrote:
dieselduo wrote:I always use pectolase enzymes when making fruit brandies. It really enhances the flavors that come across. If you're worried about the extra methanol just make a larger heads cut
What confuses me Dd is the fact that we "know" pectin makes methanol, but we seem to fight shy of pectic enzyme, which should methinks REDUCE methanol - thanks for your comparison - did you do "side by side" tastings, or is it more an "impression" ?
Yes I have done side by side comparisons. Every year we have a strawberry festival in Florida (Willie Nelson played this year :clap: ) and I make strawberry brandy. A few years ago I got some pectin enzymes and tried it side by side. The flavor was so pronounced with it I have used it every year since
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by NZChris »

Pikey wrote:So how did the flavour come out using them as flavour for a sugar wash, as opposed too your previous Chris ? or is it too early to tell yet ?
I got plenty of flavor, probably more because I distilled with the fruit in the boiler but, as usual, you wouldn't know it was feijoa if it wasn't written on the bottle. I used up the previous run by adding it to gin steeps. A couple of times, the gin tasted of feijoa the day I distilled it, but the next day it was gone.
This year's run is both on oak and white. I haven't tasted either since I cut it. I'll check it when the next crop gets ripe, then decide if I'm going to have another shot at it.
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by NZChris »

Pikey wrote:What confuses me Dd is the fact that we "know" pectin makes methanol, but we seem to fight shy of pectic enzyme, which should methinks REDUCE methanol ...
Why/how would it reduce methanol?
User avatar
der wo
Master of Distillation
Posts: 3817
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2015 2:40 am
Location: Rote Flora, Hamburg

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by der wo »

The problem is, that the fruits, which have much pectine, are also the fruits, which are difficult to mash, and the pectolytic enzyme would help much. Apples for example. Or quinces. An exception is pears, much pectin but easy to mash.
For example to mash quinces many distillers cook the fruits. It surely helps, but they loose aroma (at least in theory. I never did a side by side experiment).
Anyway, I don't want to use more water or cook the fruits. I have decided for myself to use the enzyme always with fruits and not to drink those brandies for getting drunk.
Pikey wrote:What confuses me Dd is the fact that we "know" pectin makes methanol, but we seem to fight shy of pectic enzyme, which should methinks REDUCE methanol ...
No. The enzyme degrades the pectin to methanol. Also the fruit itself has this enzyme. And the yeast too. But adding it is faster.
In this way, imperialism brings catastrophe as a mode of existence back from the periphery of capitalist development to its point of departure. - Rosa Luxemburg
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by Pikey »

der wo wrote:
Pikey wrote:What confuses me Dd is the fact that we "know" pectin makes methanol, but we seem to fight shy of pectic enzyme, which should methinks REDUCE methanol ...
No. The enzyme degrades the pectin to methanol. Also the fruit itself has this enzyme. And the yeast too. But adding it is faster.
Ah I see ! so yes the enzyme does destroy the pectin, but does it by conversion to methanol :lol:

Ok well in the winemaking books etc, there is never any methanol issue mentioned and we all used the enzyme without a second thought. I guess the answer is to just do it. Yoou can drink just as much alcohol in wine before you fall over, same as spirit, so in reality the same amount of methanol.

Interesting that the flavours seem to be enhanced by the use, so if I can be arsed I'll maybe do 1 with, 1 without and see what difference it makes.

Thanks for setting me straight lads 8)
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
Posts: 2176
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by Kareltje »

Well, pectoenzyme does not convert pectine into methanol, but in breaking down the polysaccharide pectine a lot of alcohol and CO2 is formed, but some methanol stays as a rest.
I by accident saw some article showing that the better pectoenzyme indeed resulted in more methanol in the wine. As expected.
Methanol is a poison, but ethanol acts as countermeasure. And the level is limited.

Of normal drinks one has to drink toxic levels of ethanol to imbibe lethal levels of methanol.
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by NZChris »

Kareltje wrote:Of normal drinks one has to drink toxic levels of ethanol to imbibe lethal levels of methanol.
Not necessarily.
Methanol is eliminated at a slower rate than ethanol, so continuously drinking large quantities of high methanol liquor can result in high levels of methanol. After consuming large quantities of high methanol liquor over several days, you can push your methanol levels up to dangerously high, then, if you stop drinking ethanol to counteract the methanol, you are in the shit. You have to be a very dedicated drinker of bad liquor to get to this point, but if you do manage, you deserve what you get.
User avatar
ShineonCrazyDiamond
Global moderator
Posts: 3433
Joined: Thu Feb 27, 2014 6:14 pm
Location: Look Up

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

NZChris wrote: You have to be a very dedicated drinker of bad liquor to get to this point, but if you do manage, you deserve what you get.
I'd like to hear an example from you that demonstrates someone that, got what was coming to them, because they drank alot of bad likker and got methanol poisoning. What exactly does that justice look like?
"Come on you stranger, you legend, you martyr, and shine!
You reached for the secret too soon, you cried for the moon.
Shine on you crazy diamond."
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by NZChris »

If you eat or drink stupid amounts of anything, even water, you will give yourself health problems. That has nothing to do with justice.
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by Pikey »

Kareltje wrote:Well, pectoenzyme does not convert pectine into methanol, but in breaking down the polysaccharide pectine a lot of alcohol and CO2 is formed, but some methanol stays as a rest.
I by accident saw some article showing that the better pectoenzyme indeed resulted in more methanol in the wine. As expected....
Thanks for modifying that K, I'd love to see some quantified study on the subject.

However, I saw on another HD thread that 100ml methanol is considered a lethal dose (although that was not referenced and the more usual "50% death rate" was not mentioned.)

There is a lot of scare-mongering around this particular subject and in many others not related to distilling these days (for example relating to "poisonous mushrooms" - where many mushrooms ar classified "deadly poisonous" although in one particular case I can cite, it would be neccessary for an adult to consume 70 kg at one sitting , before any serious harm ensued. [THAT is NOT to say all mushrooms are benign, there are a few which will kill you after consumption of just one cap ! - The sensible individual studies those which ARE toxic and learns to identify those which really will kill you, not just give you a dose of the shits, so that knowledge of the identity feattures of the "deadly few" becomes almost second nature]

Like "cyanide in apple pips", plum stones and pretty much everything else which tastes of "almonds" etc, it is incumbent on the individual to take a look and do their best to pick a pathway between the reality and the fantasy world of paranoia and defeatism.

In several threads, the challenge has been thrown up "Show me a single case of methanol poisoning occasioning actual harm in home distilled drinks" - I have no evidence that challenge has EVER been answered and all anecdotal cases used by the scaremongers can be traced back to deliberate addition by evil sellers, if indeed they were true in the first place.

It seems then that "To use or Not to use" enzyme, is a matter of pragmatism and it seems from the evidence of our contributors that the "Yes use them" argument to produce better flavours and aid mashing, is dominant.

Thank you lads :thumbup:
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by NZChris »

Have a read of this coroner's report on some deaths in Australia.
http://w.homedistiller.org/forum/downlo ... p?id=48201
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by Pikey »

Yep, read that NZC - it seems as I said above :

".....Mary Miller was considered by many persons at Walli Reserve to be a friend. That is simply not the case. Mary Miller sold for profit contaminated alcohol to vulnerable members of the community.
Lavinia Flick, in referring to Roger, told the court:
“As a member and friend and cousin when he was taken like that, Mary opened her shop the next day after they died like it was nothing”.
It is impossible to disagree with Lavinia’s conclusion:
“Mary targeted people with alcoholism – she targeted people with an addiction and disease – it was our people that were affected by it”........"


My opinion is that the woman is/was evil and deliberately contaminated either distilled spirit,or more likely wine with methanol.

[Edit - and that those recounting the case - either deliberately misrepresented "moonshine" also stating that "It can be contaminated with lead and arsenic" - probably due to misinformation presented by "Authority figures" (Govt sources ?)]

How do you see it ?
The Baker
Master of Distillation
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:48 am
Location: Northern Victoria, Australia

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by The Baker »

I see it the same as you, NZC.

Geoff
The Baker
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by Pikey »

The Baker wrote:I see it the same as you, NZC.

Geoff
Which is what ??? :lol:
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by NZChris »

It is my understanding that the authorities go to some trouble to ensure that Methylated Spirits is not available in those communities, so I think it is unlikely that the 'moonshine' was spiked with it. It is possible, just unlikely.
The Baker
Master of Distillation
Posts: 4659
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:48 am
Location: Northern Victoria, Australia

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by The Baker »

Pikey wrote:
The Baker wrote:I see it the same as you, NZC.

Geoff
Which is what ??? :lol:
Good point, Pikey, it was you. :sick:

Geoff
The Baker
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by Pikey »

Lol :lol: I'm sure we all do that sometimes Geoff - 8)
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
Posts: 2176
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by Kareltje »

This is a deja vu, for a part.
I have read about this case before, but as I live on the other side of the planet, I have no real judgment.

But how is this discussion related to the subject of this topic?
Pikey
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 2444
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2016 3:29 pm
Location: At the edge of the Wild Wood

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by Pikey »

Kareltje wrote:
..........But how is this discussion related to the subject of this topic?
I believe NZC was using it to imply that it is possible to die through methanol produced in a "normal" distillation.

I'm content it has some relevance - marginal tho' it may be and each piece of manufactured evidence just reinforces the case that we make our own minds up and view with scepticism, "evidence" put forward by the "Powers that be" ..... :roll:
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by NZChris »

I brought it up because someone asked.

The report demonstrates that you have to abuse the shit out of yourself with a homebrew containing methanol to cause serious harm. As long as you don't do that, using pectinase shouldn't be a problem, but if you do intend to get smashed on your plum schnapps every day, maybe you should get a different hobby or at least not use enzymes.
User avatar
Kareltje
Distiller
Posts: 2176
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:29 pm

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by Kareltje »

NZChris wrote:
Kareltje wrote:Of normal drinks one has to drink toxic levels of ethanol to imbibe lethal levels of methanol.
Not necessarily.
Methanol is eliminated at a slower rate than ethanol, so continuously drinking large quantities of high methanol liquor can result in high levels of methanol. After consuming large quantities of high methanol liquor over several days, you can push your methanol levels up to dangerously high, then, if you stop drinking ethanol to counteract the methanol, you are in the shit. You have to be a very dedicated drinker of bad liquor to get to this point, but if you do manage, you deserve what you get.
Yes, I even seem to remember reading a case when drinking ethanol kept the methanol from being metabolized and it kind of struck when the input of ethanol stopped and the collected amount of methanol got processed.

In ferments of fruits, so called wines, there is methanol. Distilling only concentrates both methanol and ethanol, but taking away the fores and/or heads diminishes the amount of methanol.

In normal drinks, both fermented and distilled, there is no lethal amount of methanol. Only in special cases, like binge drinking or drinking bad ferments/distillates methanol becomes a problem.
But as you state: when you make so much effort to do something wrong, you should take the consequences. Action is reaction.

Edit:
Or as you stated in your most recent post: you have to take much effort to do yourself so much harm.
User avatar
NZChris
Master of Distillation
Posts: 13062
Joined: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: pectolytic enzyme

Post by NZChris »

Kareltje wrote:In ferments of fruits, so called wines, there is methanol. Distilling only concentrates both methanol and ethanol, but taking away the fores and/or heads diminishes the amount of methanol.
So says forum dogma, but that may not be correct. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 33&t=40606
Post Reply