Dunder pit infections

[Shine0n]

I'm starting this thread inorder to keep a track of my 4 experiments on infected dunder.
This first one is my original rum recipe dunder that has a couple 1/4 cut potatoes in the mix. 7 gallons total volume

It's been a little over a week now and is getting good! The fruity esters are very prominent along with some smells I can't quite describe as of yet but are Pleasant.

I have 4 infections I want to try and each will have their own thread in due time so this is part 1 of 4 and will be an on going process for some time.

My plan is to do 3 stripping runs which yield me 3.5 gallons per run when ran down to 20%
I will then dilute the low wines to 25% for a total 10 gallons and add 25% infected dunder to bring total volume 12.5 gallons.
Whatever is left I will do the same to put in the thumper and add water to have a volume of 7-10 gallons depending on how much is left after dilution, we'll see!

Some of the technical names of infections I can't even pronounce or spell but I'll do my best to describe all smells to the best of my ability in detail so bare with me please.
Each experiment will be around 1 month long and I'll be keeping my notes on their appropriate threads inorder to not confuse myself or others.

Once I get the next strip ran I'll start a new pit with a different infection and so on and so on.

Once I have my 4 pits made and infected I'll start a big pit in a 55 gal drum and let it do what it does or possibly add the remaining dunders of each to it to get a long term aged pit.
I have alot of rum to run and will have no shortage of dunder to play with and I'm looking forward to these experiments and the conclusions of each.

Shine0n

[Shine0n]

Well I just lost a long ass post somehow but I'll make this nice and short, the smells are of pineapple, mixed fruit, and dirt.
This should be very interesting, I'll keep on fermenting and running until I have enough stock to complete all the pits described above and run according to how my pits are aging and the aromas they are producing.

I'll let each infected pit sit at least 1 month then run the spirit run and then see how to incorporate them in a blend or keep as is or make into this pineapple rum I've been looking at. ( Thanks MCH )

Rum is fun fun fun and an ever so interesting thing I want to perfect and I'm well on my way!!!!!
Now I need about 300,000 more runs and I think I'll have it. JK I've learned more since joining HD than I would've EVER by myself.
I'll let yall know how things pan out soon as I know

Shine0n

[Shine0n]

The pit has taken a very nice smell of fruit! Very pleasant and the top mold and nasty shit has either been eaten by bugs or sank to the bottom, either way I think it will make a fine addition to the spirit run.

[Bushman]

Has this been going about a week know?

[Shine0n]

This has been 2 weeks last Thursday, it started out with some fruity aromas now they are very very strong. The other smell is quite unique in its own, not chemical or funky at all but it amazed me to see no mold or anything on top like a week ago.

[Shine0n]

Just finished another strip run to yield 3.5 gal low wines, don't know the collective abv as they are in mostly quart jars.
Point being is that I will divide the dunder into two 5 gallon batches and infect each with different ingredients.

1- Swiss cheese culture
2- 2 cups crushed barley malt

[Single Malt Yinzer]

Subscribed! The scents are the most interesting to me. I know with my stuff it's the most interesting part of it. Everyday I am trying to keep track of the scents and seeing how much of a pattern there is.

[Shine0n]

Right now I can smell it only on the weekends because of working out of town (Again)
It's all good, instead of watching it like porn I now have 2 days to get my scenes together and try and describe it to the best of my ability.
It will make a great addition plus I have 3 more to work on so I can mix them up to make a mega rum!!! JK

[Shine0n]

The way I described my dunder pit, Der wo said that it may be dead.
I assume it's because the mold and stuff on top has disappeared, either has dropped or been eaten by bugs.
It still has a smell I couldn't describe until I opened my steaks tonight for supper!!! MEAT!!!
I guess I have some more reading to do because I have no idea about live or dead dunder pits.

It may be an assumption but here it goes,
A live dunder pit is one that is fed and grows or keep an infection live
A dead pit is one that has no life to support a living thing?

I'm no scientists, I'm just a common blue collar man that barley passed high school. I'm not the dumbest fucker around either. lol

I'll keep on trying to get this right, or wrong it doesn't really matter because won't quit trying, I enjoy the challenge and I can always rerun the stuff if need be, ya know!

Anyway, I ran my 2nd strip and got 3.5 gal low wines, together with my first I'm sure once diluted I'll have close to 10 gallons if not more. Two more strips and then the spirit run.

I should have around 10 gallons dunder left in the pot and it will have to sit till next weekend, I'll split them into 2-5 gal batches and use the following to infect it. Swiss cheese culture and crushed malted barley.
The barley should have lacto and the Swiss cheese... NO idea but should make for an interesting pit.

How exactly do you feed a dunder pit? Do you add yeast, fermentables? I'm confused and I've been reading on this for a month now, I'll keep on reading and do what I do. Everything's subject change with the blink of an eye with me, Nahhh... I'll see this one through to the bitter end.

[Pikey]

"dunder pits" seems to be one of those "ghosts" of the hobby - we think they probably exist - but there doesn't seem to be much solid fact

[kiwi Bruce]

"dunder pits" seems to be one of those "ghosts" of the hobby - we think they probably exist - but there doesn't seem to be much solid fact

Now you've got me thinking...is it possible that the same could be said for "set-back" in whiskey distilling ?

"Not all conspiracies are theories." Jim Dale's character on the TV series "Rubicon"

[Pikey]

...............the same could be said for "set-back" in whiskey distilling ?..............

Possibly - but are you thinking about "backsett" ?

[kiwi Bruce]

Possibly - but are you thinking about "backsett" ?

Now your going to make me get my lazy ass up and look at a damned glossary ! I've have two too many for this sti#...Yes up-set, backsett, setback It's all good !

[Pikey]

Possibly - but are you thinking about "backsett" ?

Now your going to make me get my lazy ass up and look at a damned glossary ! I've have two too many for this sti#...Yes up-set, backsett, setback It's all good !

Ok Bruce - a link would be good - but if you say so - fine

[der wo]

It still has a smell I couldn't describe until I opened my steaks tonight for supper!!! MEAT!!!

Meat means sulfide compounds. It's good to have copper somwhere from the pit to the barrel.

[der wo]

"dunder pits" seems to be one of those "ghosts" of the hobby - we think they probably exist - but there doesn't seem to be much solid fact

And unfortunately your often repeated opinion about this doesn't help. We still are superstitious.

[Shine0n]

It still has a smell I couldn't describe until I opened my steaks tonight for supper!!! MEAT!!!

Meat means sulfide compounds. It's good to have copper somwhere from the pit to the barrel.

I'm not sure what you mean der wo, copper from the pit to barrel means what?
Scrap pieces?

[Pikey]

"dunder pits" seems to be one of those "ghosts" of the hobby - we think they probably exist - but there doesn't seem to be much solid fact

And unfortunately your often repeated opinion about this doesn't help. We still are superstitious.

Sorry wo, I'll let it go (at least until I forget )

[der wo]

It still has a smell I couldn't describe until I opened my steaks tonight for supper!!! MEAT!!!

Meat means sulfide compounds. It's good to have copper somwhere from the pit to the barrel.

I'm not sure what you mean der wo, copper from the pit to barrel means what?
Scrap pieces?

I mean between pit and barrel. Sorry. Copper destroyes sulfides, meaty aromas are sulfides. So "somewhere" you need copper. But I didn't want to start in your thread the next discussion about where copper helps and where not. "So, the answer was copper" is the thread you need if you are interested.

[kiwi Bruce]

Possibly - but are you thinking about "backsett" ?

Now your going to make me get my lazy ass up and look at a damned glossary ! I've have two too many for this sti#...Yes up-set, backsett, setback It's all good !

Possibly - but are you thinking about "backsett" ?

Now your going to make me get my lazy ass up and look at a damned glossary ! I've have two too many for this sti#...Yes up-set, backsett, setback It's all good !

Ok Bruce - a link would be good - but if you say so - fine

We were both right ! ! This is from the glossary of Bourbon and whisky distillers...

Backset: The thin, watery part of a previously distilled batch of whiskey mash that is added ‒ or “set back” ‒ into the next batch. Also “sour mash, setback, stillage or spent beer.”

[Shine0n]

Thanks wo, I have some scraps lying around so I'll add a bit when I return home tomorrow.

[kiwi Bruce]

I have always wondered how a single malt scotch like Ardbeg or Laphroaig could possibly get Cineole, the major flavor compound found in Black Cardamom, without actually using the spice. Could a dunder pit type operation be being used in the setback of some of the “Wilder” single malts ?
Well this one is going to start with me...anyone who cares to follow along, please do. I throw the excess setback out after I've used it...now I'm developing a strategy. Lots of reading to be done on dunder pits...but then...I'll start a new thread. Name ? No idea...any suggestions ?

[kiwi Bruce]

"dunder pits" seems to be one of those "ghosts" of the hobby - we think they probably exist - but there doesn't seem to be much solid fact

Eventually, to quote Shakespeare..."the truth will out" This is an interesting read, for all you rum heads out there...and crazy Kiwis.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/great-rum- ... goat-heads" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[der wo]

I have always wondered how a single malt scotch like Ardbeg or Laphroaig could possibly get Cineole, the major flavor compound found in Black Cardamom, without actually using the spice. Could a dunder pit type operation be being used in the setback of some of the “Wilder” single malts ? I don't think so. Because those flavors you describe are no esters afaik. Definetely there is no Malt Whisky distillery using backset or a backset pit.
Well this one is going to start with me...anyone who cares to follow along, please do. I throw the excess setback out after I've used it...now I'm developing a strategy. Lots of reading to be done on dunder pits...but then...I'll start a new thread. Name ? No idea...any suggestions ?

Here my infected peated Malt Whisky:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 34&t=65858

[Pikey]

"dunder pits" seems to be one of those "ghosts" of the hobby - we think they probably exist - but there doesn't seem to be much solid fact

Eventually, to quote Shakespeare..."the truth will out" This is an interesting read, for all you rum heads out there...and crazy Kiwis.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/great-rum- ... goat-heads" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Thank you for that link Bruce Food for thought there - I now know more through that article (and the link within it to "Stilldragon" forum, where a guy called "grim" is a gem ) than I did before particularly in the contributions the various acids are reputed to make.

[Edit; der wo - I have just read your "Infected Scotch" thread and am starting your "infected rum" thread {edit - from the beginning}. Your experiments so far as I have read are very instructive. I shall be taking note of your findings and probably applying some of that. - I can highly recommend the article posted by Kiwibruce and the link in that article to bring anyone "up to speed" on some of the priciples, in order to better understand what you are doing quickly. ]

[kiwi Bruce]

I don't think so. Because those flavors you describe are no esters afaik. Definetely there is no Malt Whisky distillery using backset or a backset pit.

"Definitely" is not a word I would use in the hobby now...considering that Rum has been distilled in Jamaica for four hundred years and we have only JUST found proof that the dunder pits actually exist. I don't think that the Malt Whisky distilleries have setback pits...it's more likely to be a setback "Hogshead" or a "Tun" and how likely are we to find out if it IS being used ? If it's taken four hundred years to find proof of a dunder pit...not very likely, but not impossible.

[Shine0n]

Today I went and bought 3 more gallons of molasses to start another ferment and now will have time to make another pit. Last week's setback kinda messed me up on my schedule but oh well.
I'll take a couple hand fulls of my malted barley for one pit and the cheese culture for the other and give them a few weeks to develop something then go from there.

I'm thinking 3 more strips should get me to where I need to be low wines speaking.
After 2 strips I have 7 gallons uncut low wines, after dilution it should be around 10 at 30% maybe lower but that's fine too.

I'm planning on running nice and slow, around 1 quart every half hour for the spirit run should do fine.
Probably will make for a long long day.
I'm going to buy another 5 gallon carboy so I have plenty of space for aging.
The plan is to age 5 gallon with AO med toast for a year and keep the remainder white for who know how long.

[der wo]

I don't think so. Because those flavors you describe are no esters afaik. Definetely there is no Malt Whisky distillery using backset or a backset pit.

"Definitely" is not a word I would use in the hobby now...considering that Rum has been distilled in Jamaica for four hundred years and we have only JUST found proof that the dunder pits actually exist. I don't think that the Malt Whisky distilleries have setback pits...it's more likely to be a setback "Hogshead" or a "Tun" and how likely are we to find out if it IS being used ? If it's taken four hundred years to find proof of a dunder pit...not very likely, but not impossible.

Arroyo published about dunder pits in 1941.
I think if they would use backset, they would write about like the Bourbon distilleries. But who knows... Actually I always wondered why the Scotts don't use backset. Not because of taste but because of yield. When using backset you need less grain for the same abv. This must be an argument for them I think.
If I would start a commercial Malt Whisky distillery, I would include backset pits. It would be unique (probably). But perhaps it's naive. I am sure I would get the contra of all the competitors. It would be easy to malign this method. And perhaps a food safety authority would stop it.

[Shine0n]

For some strange reason I've decided to see how much low wines I would have when cut back to 35% and the total was right at 10 gallons.
So I thought what the hell, I boiled 3 gallons of the infected dunder for 30 minutes. total of 12.5ish in the boiler it went.
I disconnected my thumper since everything is joined by unions, I hooked up to the worm and here we go!!!
Now I know that 2 strip runs cut to 35% plus 2.5 gallons of dunder will get me to where I need to be for my spirit run.
I'm not sure why I did this today, the hottest day of the year but it just seemed right so by the end of today I'll know if it were a mistake or not but I'm betting on not.

From just a few days ago the pit went from meaty, soy sauce, fruity to a very nice mellow sweetness with a bit of tart.
I'm not being impatient (I don't think) but this summer heat and running outdoors with no ac is a killer so until I build a liebig and convert to electric I'm done until the fall at least during 100f days which in eastern Va. is the norm until September.

I'll report my findings later today on the spirit run,
Shine0n

[Shine0n]

OKAY, I'M SOLD!!!!! The smell is completely amazing coming off the spout, I'm yet to dilute and taste but just from the smell alone... I'm sold on the strip/spirit run!

Very little heads, to the hearts by 2.5 pints including fores and heads. It's steady 162p and the aromas coming off the still can be smelled from 100feet away.

I'll let air for 24 hours after the run and come back to blend tomorrow evening.
Damn it, now this has changed my whole way of thinking about my rum and evolution has happened.

Thanks HD,
Shine0n