Dunder pit infections

[Shine0n]

I was blessed with 2.75 gallons of good clean hearts and I also collected 1 pint of early tails which may see some action in the final blend. There was a pint of late heads to early hearts that may see something as well.

It's a bit early to say how they will air out but just from the still I have seen a major impact of using the infected dunder and low wines in a spirit run.

Now I wonder how much flavor will come from fresh dunder???
I still have 3 more infections to do and compare first so now on to them as long as the heat cooperate with my timing.

This was a major success with the way I do my rums from now on.
Shine0n

[kiwi Bruce]

This was a major success with the way I do my rums from now on.Shine0n

This is very encouraging...and major good news ! Thank you ShinsOn

[Shine0n]

I think so my self, just doing a strip/spirit run has opened my eyes in a different way then I had the infected dunder to top it off.
I'll let the dunder age for some time and as I go through these next batches I'll compare everything and maybe blend some together.
As for now with this rum, I'm taking a quart for immediate consumption and I'll let the most age white for a spell.
I'll go buy some med toast AO for a quart and nuke age then let sit for 3 months.

I'll say again, I can't believe it's taken me so long to even try this, I'm completely hooked on this process of strip/spirit runs.
Shine0n

[kiwi Bruce]

A quick thought ...you might want to take a sample of the different mothers (the mold and yeast that floats on top) and some of the liquid, put these in small plastic bottles and cover with glycerine. Put them in the freezer to preserve them, just in case you can't duplicate the same infection again, you'll have samples to fall back on.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

A little something about blending rum, now that you have distinction...I blend some early tails. After that short phase, the middle tails comes through, and they are bitter and nasty. BUT, keep going and there are some late tails that are absolutely sweet and awesome to add. But also, they lead to sweet water, very low abv product, that is great to also add to proof with.

There really are more separation classes beyond the three heads, hearts, and tails, but we generally just group them all together.

Try to segment your rum into 8 categories, and you can really zero in on a great and complex product.

[Shine0n]

SCD, I just mentioned that exact same thing to a guy the other day.
I'll normally get a gallon of to cloudy tails then switch back to pints or half punts to collect the sweet water to do my blends as they have some flavors left and I won't have use distilled water for dilution.

Funny you mentioned that and thanks too!

Now some others may see and try that as well because I totally forgot to mention it.
I hadn't thought of it as 8 but that's a good way of looking at it and should definitely be talked about more often in our blends.

Thanks again,
Shine0n

[kiwi Bruce]

Doing my due diligence and reading a lot I found this from Boston Apothecary "Muck Hole” Not “Dunder Pit”
https://www.bostonapothecary.com/muck-h ... under-pit/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
From the artical..."The account very briefly explains the various cisterns used for preparing all parts of the sugar wash and uses the (new to me) term muck hole as opposed to the term dunder pit which many rum talkers like to throw around. True, Jamaican rums had dunder added [and this it turns out is ripened with bacterial fermentations], which just implied stillage, but they also had a quotient added called flavour, which is the legendary re-fermented portion."
It continues :- "Solids from the dunder go into the muck hole. These solids, which are pretty much completely composed of high acid spent lees, undergo a particular bacterial fermentation which produces increased amounts of fatty acids, notably butyric. The muck hole is essentially a pH sensitive bio reactor that is started and stopped constantly by the addition of alkaline lime marl. Besides stalling out with too low a pH, if the muck hole was neglected, the prized fatty acids would continue to break down into simpler molecules like ammonia, but when lime is added and the pH rises, fatty acids are also locked up as salts. Muck can be drawn off or more dunder solids added and the process restarted. Many rum talkers claim the content of the pits could be decades old but I suspect the break down of chemical compounds into undesirable forms like ammonia would not permit this and the contents rather were/are at most only from the previous season’s production."

[kiwi Bruce]

Muck Hole/Pot

Muck Pot.jpg (52.38 KiB) Viewed 2193 times

[Shine0n]

Very good read kiwi, I'll keep on giving my dunder the chance to develop by keeping up on ph and the making sure it doesn't go dormant like my last one. Boy oh boy did what I have last run have an impact that I loved and will enjoy for a while.
I have 10 more gallons I plan to infect into 2-5 gal buckets and keep a better eye on them, I'll go back to der wo's threads as well and read and look through my notes and see what maybe I can do differently to achieve better (if possible) results.

Thanks for the links and research you've done,
Shine0n

[Shine0n]

After 24 hours the rum has been blended and sitting nicely in the cubby at 154p, after airing everything I took as hearts I maybe could've kept another 2 pints later and seen how they would've aired but oh well. I do have 3 pints of sweet water to use to proof down with as to not use so much distilled water but I was running low on propane and it was 120f in the barn by late afternoon and we'll worth every sweat drop lost.

I'll start infection 2 and 3 in another thread, barley malt and Swiss cheese culture.
bon temps,
Shine0n

[kiwi Bruce]

Just a thought...if there are any of us here on HD, in or from, what was Yugoslavia, please throw in your 2c's worth...I was 13 the first time I ever saw a still run, a local Yugoslavian emigrant, made what he called "Black Slivovitz" which he said was banned in his home land. He had an earthen, wood lined hole, that he filled each season with rotten fruit. It didn't smell bad at all, and he added a good sized jug of this to the final distillation...Just a thought.

[Shine0n]

Kiwi, that's interesting and now you've perked my interest in that as well. I'll do some searching to see what I can find and if you find anything please let me know what or where to go.

Well, I went to the stillin barn today to find about 100 or maggots living in my dunder, we'll I strained them off and put a window screen on the top along with the lid. Is this one completely done now because of that or is there a way to salvage it? It smells like I'd drink it as is but the little fuckers had their way with it during the last week.

[der wo]

Yes, very interesting.
"he added a good sized jug of this to the final distillation" means he mixed it with the low wines and then did the spirit run? So why the name is "black Slivovitz"? The final product was clear or colored?

[der wo]

Well, I went to the stillin barn today to find about 100 or maggots living in my dunder, we'll I strained them off and put a window screen on the top along with the lid. Is this one completely done now because of that or is there a way to salvage it? It smells like I'd drink it as is but the little fuckers had their way with it during the last week.

I always cover the bucket with a dishtowel. Never had flies in my bucket (only flying around), never had maggots. But I wouldn't have a problem with a bit "maggots share".

[kiwi Bruce]

Yes, very interesting.
"he added a good sized jug of this to the final distillation" means he mixed it with the low wines and then did the spirit run? So why the name is "black Slivovitz"? The final product was clear or colored?

I can only guess that the name "black" was in the context of hidden or banned, like "Black market"...the slivovitz was water clear with an over powering Plum flavor, now this from a 13 year old who had hardly ever drunk "hard spirits" at all. That said, I was on vacation in Yugoslavia in the early 80's and the slivovitz that was served in the clubs and bars was not a patch on his old guy's ( I cannot remember his name...it's pissing me off ) A mind is a terrible thing...

[TDick]

For some strange reason I've decided to see how much low wines I would have when cut back to 35% and the total was right at 10 gallons.
So I thought what the hell, I boiled 3 gallons of the infected dunder for 30 minutes. total of 12.5ish in the boiler it went.
I disconnected my thumper since everything is joined by unions, I hooked up to the worm and here we go!!!
Now I know that 2 strip runs cut to 35% plus 2.5 gallons of dunder will get me to where I need to be for my spirit run.
I'm not sure why I did this today, the hottest day of the year but it just seemed right so by the end of today I'll know if it were a mistake or not but I'm betting on not.
I'll report my findings later today on the spirit run,
Shine0n

Okay, I'm a Newb
and I am a dumbass.
I've read this several times and I still have NO idea what you are talking about.

I'm sure even other Newbs know what you're saying, but can you dumb down the procedure even more for the few as naive as me?
I ask because I've been out of town for 3 weeks and am FINALLY getting ready to do sacrificial run and month old fruit wash in my still.
I'm thinking Rum would be the next step up before grains, and would like to understand a LITTLE - what the hell you are doing.
Thanks Shine !
BB

[Shine0n]

It's simple really, I make a rum wash and run it hard and fast, collet the total minus the foreshots.
I do this enough until I have enough low wines to do a spirit run.
in the meanwhile I infect the dunder with "whatever" and let them sit for a spell, once I have enough low wines I make sure to cut them back to 35% and then add the infected dunder at 25% of the total volume.
then I do I spirit run.

Hope that helps a little Bam,
Shine0n

[Shine0n]

So I forgot to report back with my findings, I took off a half pint of fores and somewhat over a pint of heads, I also kept a pint of late heads to blend back into the final keep along with a pint of early tails and once I got past the the cloudy tails I kept another 3 pints of the sweet water for final blending.

I let the hearts air for 24 hours and the heads and tails jars another 24, my total keep was 2.75 gallons.

I blended this weekend, the taste was bold!!! very heavy molasses and a bit of fruits, the smell to some was overpowering but the taste white was very smooth and clean.
I kept a quart white at 125ish proof for rum and cokes and 1.5 gallons to age on American white oak med toast for a minimum of 9 months. The rest is white at blending strength (not aging) for future use!?!?!?!

It's very possible after my experiments with these infections I'll take 1 gal of each and do a blend of all the spirit runs and long term age for a special rum.

I'm enjoying these experiments as I've found that it's alot easier to control my infections in the pits and not the washes.
I'm looking into a bulk buy of molasses before the temps cool just because I love making rum and have plans for 3-5 year aging in a larger barrel

At 25% it seems to be the right ratio of low wines to dunder to make a nice bold somewhat funky, fruity rum.

Shine0n

[kiwi Bruce]

Okay, I'm a Newb :mrgreen:and I am a dumbass.I've read this several times and I still have NO idea what you are talking about.
I'm sure even other Newbs know what you're saying, but can you dumb down the procedure even more for the few as naive as me?
I ask because I've been out of town for 3 weeks and am FINALLY getting ready to do sacrificial run and month old fruit wash in my still.
I'm thinking Rum would be the next step up before grains, and would like to understand a LITTLE - what the hell you are doing.
Thanks Shine !
BB

OK I'll give you the simple low-down...It has been long suspected that the the rum makers in the Caribbean, starting some 400 years age, came upon a secrete ingredient, that set their rum apart from any other spirit being made in the world...it became known as "Dark Navy Rum" How they came across this "secrete ingredient" can only be speculated on...but they did, and for several centuries it has remained a mystery as to what the hell it could be. And hell is right...no one in their right mind could have guessed what a nightmarish thing the truth would turn out to be. All of the waste...spent yeast, lees, molasses solids, waste left over from distilling, field trimmings, basically every conceivable piece of trash was dumped, poured or thrown into a timber lined, open, pit to decompose. Animals ran into these things and drowned, dead animal parts were tossed in, (hence the reference to goats heads) BUT someone decided that this would be a GOOD THING to add to the distillate when making Dark Rum. When it worked they shut up about it...and called it DUNDER and the pit of disgustingness was called a Dunder pit or hole. Some Rum makers here on HD have tried to duplicate this pit in a pot...and have more control over the "stuff" throw in...the results are not yet all in...one could wind up with a 5 gal pot of total disgustingness...or...and here's hoping...one could wind up with something totally amazing...the jury is still out on this one,
however we are leaning a lot about the Dark Dark Side Of Rum !

[Shine0n]

I'll continue to experiment with all this nastiness and report findings good or bad!!!

There seems to be a fear of this from lots of folks because of the looks alone and interweb speculation and wives tales of years past.

We can control these pits by doing them separately with single infections at the time and THEN add to the low wines for a SINGLE infected rum as for them to not have to compete with each other for dominance in a wash.

My single infected pits let me control what goes in and how much to add instead of mucking up a whole batch of wash and having to turn it into vodka.

With the help of the guru of funk der wo between him and I have been experimenting extensively with these infections and so far have had some pretty good results.

I know I will continue on this path as if I'm possessed.

Shine0n

[kiwi Bruce]

The guru of funk...der wo

GREAT HANDLE ! I hope der wo likes it !

[der wo]

The funk has no guru. The funk is the guru. The funk has slaves.

[kiwi Bruce]

The funk has no guru. The funk is the guru. The funk has slaves.

GREAT COME-BACK !!! Love it !

[Shine0n]

SLAVE I AM!!!

[kiwi Bruce]

I don't think so. Because those flavors you describe are no esters afaik. Definetely there is no Malt Whisky distillery using backset or a backset pit.

I've read Arroyo's patent...I also beginning to feel that there may be a prolonged/infected fermentation going on with some of the single malts. I'm going to have to hunt though your post on this. Still a lot of reading to do.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 34&t=65858 like this one !

[Shine0n]

The pits have been going good, I've strained out the critters and used picking lime to rise the pH back to 5.6 and added some yeast trub back to the pits.

The pellicle has formed once again in less than 12 hours and gotten the sour smell. they both look like lacto but smell different from each other.

the cheese is sour and still a bit sweet smelling while the soil has a sweet body oder.

I have some tails from the last run and I'm going to add in a small jar 10/1 dunder to tails to see if any esters are dominant and their differences.

My first dunder of potatoes is aging well and I may strain and raise the ph again to get it from the dormant stage back into activity and let go dormant again to fully age until next year.

I've not yet tried the sulfuric acid to bring out esters but is on the horizon and will be interesting to see results from it. just not yet.

More to be revealed,
Shine0n

[kiwi Bruce]

used picking lime to rise the pH back to 5.6 Shine0n

Good call on the picking Lime...I was considering using crushed shell but lime should work wonders.

[Shine0n]

I've found that the shells slow or retard the pH drop while the lime quickly raises it.

I want to get a slab of marble to control large mashes ph

[kiwi Bruce]

So, it's the end of the summer...time to pick fruit, can veggies, collect muck...but I've noticed something, not all muck is created equal. A bucket of tomato skins and trimmings left to go "bad"...I stuck my noise in it,..and..although I wouldn't eat it... it wasn't "gag a maggot" revolting. It must have a slight Lato infection as it smells like tomato paste and cheese, almost like a pizza. So I'm saving this one.

I'm now sticking my honk into everything...and although the smell of something "OFF" would stop you from putting it in your mouth, there are smells that are not off-putting. These I'll collect.

[RedwoodHillBilly]

So, it's the end of the summer...time to pick fruit, can veggies, collect muck...but I've noticed something, not all muck is created equal. A bucket of tomato skins and trimmings left to go "bad"...I stuck my noise in it,..and..although I wouldn't eat it... it wasn't "gag a maggot" revolting. It must have a slight Lato infection as it smells like tomato paste and cheese, almost like a pizza. So I'm saving this one.

I'm now sticking my honk into everything...and although the smell of something "OFF" would stop you from putting it in your mouth, there are smells that are not off-putting. These I'll collect.

Ever smelled butyric acid? That is quite a bit off (think baby puke) but can make a pretty good ester.