What kind of Mold?

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Hawke
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What kind of Mold?

Post by Hawke » Wed May 07, 2008 10:01 am

Went to start my dorment UJSM today and found this on top. What is it?
Image
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The Chemist
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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by The Chemist » Wed May 07, 2008 10:13 am

Looks like Mashylius Nasticum...

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wineo
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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by wineo » Wed May 07, 2008 10:18 am

Looks like you need some pennicillin to treat it.I would just dump it and start a new one.

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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by KidGib » Wed May 07, 2008 10:38 am

If its just a few spots of mold and the wash doesn't smell bad, you may be able to just skim it off and add 1/2 teaspoon of potassium metabisulphite, stir it in and run it the next day. You can pick it up at any homebrew store or winemaking store. I use it after I crush the grapes because it kills all the wild yeast and most mold that aren't visible. It is also added to the wine at bottling time to stabilize it. I've run my wine in the still and it makes great brandy, so it doesn't seem to have any effect on the taste. If the wash is not done fermenting, you will have to wait 24 hours to re-pitch your yeast, as this stuff does kill off yeasts and such. Also, during that 24 hours, keep an airlock or towel over the fermenter, because this stuff will produce CO2.

trthskr4
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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by trthskr4 » Wed May 07, 2008 1:44 pm

I think he said it was dormant. I'm assuming you had just added water after racking off last batch, where did you store it? If it was in a fridge I'd skim it and restart it, but that's just me. How much corn is it maybe $2 worth, if you're scared of it chunk it out watch the birds eat it and if your yard looks like a scene from "The Seventh Sign" in a day or two you know you did the right thing. Shortly after that, let me know. :D
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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by HookLine » Wed May 07, 2008 4:19 pm

Looks to me like an internet connection node graph.
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trthskr4
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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by trthskr4 » Wed May 07, 2008 4:37 pm

Yeah, maybe that's how the universe got started. Some "omniscience" being was mashing. :lol: :lol:
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Tater
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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by Tater » Wed May 07, 2008 4:43 pm

Id dump it.
I use a pot still.Sometimes with a thumper

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Husker
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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by Husker » Wed May 07, 2008 4:55 pm

I agree with tater. What do you have in the wash? A couple of dollars. Dump it, and sterilize everything. Why risk having this crap contaminate anything further.

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Uncle Jesse
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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by Uncle Jesse » Wed May 07, 2008 6:47 pm

that's the "spider webs", you get it when you let secondary fermentations start.
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Hawke
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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by Hawke » Wed May 07, 2008 7:36 pm

Thanks all,
Was planning on dumping it anyway. Just hadn't seen that before. Got the second fermenter started, then went to restart this one... (had only been sitting about 10 days). Secondary ferment, don't need to make any vinegar, got plenty on hand :roll:
It is the very things that we think we know, that keep us from learning what we should know.
Valved Reflux, 3"x54" Bok 'mini', 2 liebig based pots and the 'Blockhead' 60K btu propane heat

wineo
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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by wineo » Wed May 07, 2008 8:54 pm

Ive seen that kind of mold in beer.I dont know what its called but you need to get rid of it,and clean the hell outa things to make sure it dont come back in something else.

Hawke
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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by Hawke » Wed May 07, 2008 9:34 pm

Yep,
Took it outside and dumped it. Soon as the cap broke open, there was a definate vinegar smell. Cleaned it with hot bleach water, then hit it with Star San. Now I've got two batches going. One straight from the recipe, the other has a pound or so of malted barley added to the corn.
It is the very things that we think we know, that keep us from learning what we should know.
Valved Reflux, 3"x54" Bok 'mini', 2 liebig based pots and the 'Blockhead' 60K btu propane heat

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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by CoopsOz » Thu May 08, 2008 3:03 am

The Chemist wrote:Looks like Mashylius Nasticum...

(Yeah, I know...I'm no help!!)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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muckanic
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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by muckanic » Thu May 08, 2008 6:09 pm

Given that the main justification for distilling is to separate EtOH from other stuff, I am slightly surprised by all these recommendations to dump the wash. As far as I am aware, no wild bug can produce anything that is actually poisonous in a brewing environment. It might require some reflux to salvage the batch, but the worst that can probably happen is some late-happening blue from the acetic acid, or a phenolic (medicinal) leakage into the hearts which could possibly respond to carbon.

Out of interest, did this bug get a toehold in the presence of backset and anaerobic conditions? That would be slightly unusual.

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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by Hawke » Thu May 08, 2008 7:19 pm

It was a 'dormant' UJSM. mostly corn, yeast and 2 gallons of water. I had racked off the wash about 10 days earlier and had it in the fridge. A buck or two worth of corn and yeast ain't worth saving.
Was on a 10 day shift at work and didn't have time to run it for the backset to recharge the mash. I've got two 5 gallon ferments going now, so all is well. I'll just have to remember to schedule things a little better :lol:
It is the very things that we think we know, that keep us from learning what we should know.
Valved Reflux, 3"x54" Bok 'mini', 2 liebig based pots and the 'Blockhead' 60K btu propane heat

wineo
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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by wineo » Thu May 08, 2008 8:16 pm

Some of us make wine and beer.You have to be more careful,and clean or you will ruin a batch and possably have some kind of bug contaminating your brewing area.Beer is more at risk because of the low abv.

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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by Oaty » Wed May 14, 2008 1:53 pm

Mukanic and Wineo are both right for different reasons. If you want to save it go ahead and run it, but if you brew ditch it fast. Then clean everything ...Sterilize...Must sterilize...


The important question is figurin out how it got started in the first place. I've left mine for weeks extra without a problem. My guess is that when you placed it in refrigeration you broke the airlock. Nasty places refrigerators. All kinds of FUNGUS AMUNGUS!!!
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Hawke
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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by Hawke » Wed May 14, 2008 8:05 pm

Wasn't in the fridge, the wash was put in the fridge for 8 days. No problem. That was the dorment, 4th generation mash, after 10 days.
If you had actually read the first post, you would have seen that.
It is the very things that we think we know, that keep us from learning what we should know.
Valved Reflux, 3"x54" Bok 'mini', 2 liebig based pots and the 'Blockhead' 60K btu propane heat

muckanic
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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by muckanic » Thu May 15, 2008 6:21 pm

Yeah, this is really a case of the dregs getting infected. One way round these schedule conflicts is to treat the dregs as a yeast starter, ie, lose the corn and other solids, bottle the yeast(s) and favourable bacteria (hopefully) with a small amount of sugar as if making beer, let it condition for a few days, then chill it down for storage. If you're fanatical, sterilise the neck of the bottle with some flaming alcohol as soon as it is re-opened.

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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by trthskr4 » Wed May 21, 2008 5:16 am

I just found the same thing in an UJSM that I left covered and airlocked for 3 days until I could do a run for some backset. I opened this morning to find the exact same thing in my fermenter. It seems to like the more neutral PH environment, as I just added water to cover the corn in the bottom + a couple inches. I held true to my advise as I thought it would be quite hypocritical to tell someone else to do it and throw mine out. Uncle Jesse mentioned it looked like second fermentation so I thought maybe the lacto in the corn tried to take over. I added in backset and sugar aerated and gonna see what it does. After 30 minutes it hasn't started hitting the airlock yet as it usually does, but going to leave it until this evening and if it does nothing then I'll throw it out.
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wineo
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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by wineo » Wed May 21, 2008 8:19 am

Keeping your ph at 5 or under will help keep those bugs at bay.

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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by trthskr4 » Mon May 26, 2008 9:48 am

Just as a follow up on my last post: It did start the fermentation back off but this one's really slow. Started it back on the 21st and it's the 26th, it's still bubbling 1 big bubble through a 1piece airlock I got. I did rack it off into a glass carboy on the 4th day to watch it for settling and put the airlock over on that. It smells fine but working slow and very cloudy. I'm gonna let it finish and run it alone and see what I get.
15 gallon pot still, 2"x18" column with liebeg condensor on propane.
Modified Charles 803 w/ 50gal boiler, never ran so far.

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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by trthskr4 » Tue May 27, 2008 3:40 am

Just as an experiment I did a lactic fermentation starter per Pinto's method. It's been hot here and around 80*F in the shop so I figured prime temp for lactic fermentation. Just as I think UJ alluded to earlier in the thread here and I suspected on the 4th morning after punching the cap down on day 2,3 and 4 and then letting set overnight this is the exact thing which formed on the top. So I believe it to be either a stage or the stage of lactic acid fermentation when it sets in. I may be wrong, but if that is the case then adding backset to this possibly desirable stage of fermentation appears also to kill it or stop it in its' tracks. I added no backset to my starter, but it definately stopped it in my fermenter. It is taking longer to finish the batch of UJSM that had the stuff on it after 3 days of sitting without backset, it's still not finished after 6 days or so. My question to those of you who have used the lactic method is, should this be stopped with backset or is it more desirable to allow it to work on its' own? Is the lactic process finished at that point enough that you've gotten all the "goodies" out of it and then it's time to introduce the non-resident yeast of your choice to complete the fermentation?
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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by Uncle Jesse » Sat May 31, 2008 12:32 am

I haven't done any scientific studies but I've had those spider webs before. I've run the wash when it wasn't too bad, and I've abandoned the wash for one reason or another and come back to find the mash ruined by the spider webs. It'll start to smell like cheap vinegar if you let it sit another day or two.

Beer makers boil with hops which prevents this process from happening. To a brewer, secondary fermentations are nice slow ferments which break down some of the more complex sugars, add a bit of ABV and refine the beer quite nicely. For distillers a secondary ferment is too late because you're making vinegar, losing alcohol and possibly creating off-flavors in your end product.
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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by trthskr4 » Sat May 31, 2008 2:54 am

Thanks UJ for that explanation. I had racked that off and added only water and let sit for 2 days, the spider webs had just taken hold. The bed of the wash in the fermenter I ended up throwing away because it would not allow another normal yeast fermentation to work off in a descent time. It took 9 days to stop bubbling and settle a little. I must be doing something wrong because I am not sure I'm actually getting a lactic fermentation in my starter jars. It could be the weather right now it's hot and humid and has been that way for weeks. I'll try again in the fall.
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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by muckanic » Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:18 pm

Lactobacillus is strictly anaerobic, so it doesn't form surface films. It usually produces CO2. In beer, it can work either pre the main ferment (fast) or at a slower rate in the secondary in competition with the yeast. It doesn't like hops too much, but can cope with alcohol and beer levels of acidity. As lactic acid is a product, I assume that too much acidification could be inhibitory. Some lacto strains apparently can metabolise starch as well as sugar, but more generally I have seen suggestions that lactos like to set up home in a layer of unconverted starch on the bottom of the fermenter.

So, if adding backset eliminated some surface growth, then it wasn't lactobacillus. If it eliminated the gassing that held up a crust, then that is a different matter. Lacto products have a characteristic smell of yoghurt. They can cope with and in fact like temperatures of up to 40C. Pre the main yeast ferment, about two days is required for full effect at warm temperatures.

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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by trthskr4 » Sun Jun 01, 2008 7:08 pm

Well Muckanic thanks for that information. I have myself decided however unscientifically that it is not Lacto (but what the hell do I know, lol). I ran that run that I was talking about and drew off a gallon of the tails 3 days ago and today I opened the sealed bucket and found the same thing growing in the backset or rather on top of it. Now I'm totally stumped. It had to have come through the distillation process because it was pretty well airtight in that bucket and was syphoned off hot into the bucket and immediately capped.

Image



Somebody call a doctor, I got some kind of infection.
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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by Dnderhead » Sun Jun 01, 2008 7:55 pm

Sense it is in back sets also that has bin boiled and sealed that eliminates the corn and water only other thing is sanitation ----- how are you doing that? or its getting in there when you have it open to "dump/transfer" from one container to another , in that case look at the room your doing it in (damp moldy, dirt floors etc )

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Re: What kind of Mould?

Post by HookLine » Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:06 pm

trthskr4 wrote:Image
Eeeewwwwggghhh! That looks disgusting.
Be safe.
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And have fun.

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