The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Treatment and handling after you are done distilling.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby Badmotivator » Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:16 pm

Mikey-moo wrote:Are these for sale now then? Where can we buy them from please...
I have made some informal ad hoc private arrangements with a few people. Nothing professional. Say, how expensive is it to ship from Oregon to the UK?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby Mikey-moo » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:17 am

Many pesos :-(
I'll start saving up :-)
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby OtisT » Sat Sep 23, 2017 11:36 am

Badmotivator wrote:
Mikey-moo wrote:Are these for sale now then? Where can we buy them from please...
I have made some informal ad hoc private arrangements with a few people. Nothing professional. Say, how expensive is it to ship from Oregon to the UK?


I just spent a little over $20 to send a small box (about 8x8x8") to the U.K. That was the cheep option.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby rubber duck » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:23 am

Badmotivator wrote:
rubber duck wrote:Could you do some custom oak? Like it would be a pain in the ass but but I would pay you for it.
What do you have in mind?


Toasted French oak medium. Also a head made from a white wine barrel would be cool.
Ideas are like rabbits. You get a couple and learn how to handle them, and pretty soon you have a dozen. John Steinbeck
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby Badmotivator » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:31 pm

rubber duck wrote:
Badmotivator wrote:
rubber duck wrote:Could you do some custom oak? Like it would be a pain in the ass but but I would pay you for it.
What do you have in mind?


Toasted French oak medium. Also a head made from a white wine barrel would be cool.
I would be happy to make those, but I can’t think of a way to get French oak merrains. Any ideas?

Making a head out of a used white wine barrel is more do-able. I don’t have any ex-white staves but I could get some. The ex-wine heads I made were from a red wine barrel, but the technique would be the same.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby Oldvine Zin » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:24 am

Hey BadMo,
We stopped barrel aging whites a long time ago so I can't help you with those staves, but I could set you up with an almost endless supply of red ones.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby rubber duck » Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:11 pm

I know where to get them. Next time in wine country I'll get some and pm you.
Ideas are like rabbits. You get a couple and learn how to handle them, and pretty soon you have a dozen. John Steinbeck
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby Badmotivator » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:45 am

In post #380 of this thread I mentioned a barrel whose metal can split. Yesterday I cut the curled lip of the can with an angle grinder, cut the can with big snips, released the head, sanded it down a bit, re-waxed the croze, and pressed it into a new can.
IMG_3181.jpg


#45 lives again!
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby The Baker » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:41 pm

And now you have a spittoon....

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby pretender » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:05 am

In the end I managed to complete the elements to prepare the barrel according to Badmo. Oak boards 1 ", unfortunately I have not been able to buy similar containers like Badmo, so I prepared a section of 220 mm pipe.

Badmo, how did you water the barrels? Is it just inside or can I insert a filled water bucket into a bucket and pour the whole water?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby pretender » Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:42 am

In the meantime, I burned the covers
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby yakattack » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:29 am

Pretender. Please do not upload pics via tap talk. Those of us not using it can not see pictures and down the road those pics won't be available. Please follow the procedure to upload directly to the site. There's a sticky on how to do this if you are unsure.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby pretender » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:53 am

I'm sorry, I only use the phone ... I'm improving [WINKING FACE]
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby Badmotivator » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:21 pm

pretender wrote:In the end I managed to complete the elements to prepare the barrel according to Badmo. Oak boards 1 ", unfortunately I have not been able to buy similar containers like Badmo, so I prepared a section of 220 mm pipe.

Badmo, how did you water the barrels? Is it just inside or can I insert a filled water bucket into a bucket and pour the whole water?


Hey, that looks fun!

I swell and test my barrels by filling them with water, and often leave them upright with water on top of the wood. In the end, though, to prove that it is tight, you need to see how it does with water only on the inside. Then you will either see places where it is leaking or you won't. Give it a couple of days though, as sometimes those weepy spots fix themselves.

I note that you used flat-sawn boards. This will increase your loss rate somewhat (I don't know how much) because of the orientation of the oak's medullary rays, which on your barrel are pointing from the inside of your barrel to the outside. I recommend using only quarter sawn oak in the future.

Also, were you able to weather the oak outside for a good long time before making your barrel heads? If not, you may find that the wood gives an aggressive, tannic, green flavor to your spirit.

I wish you luck!
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby pretender » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:34 am

Badmotivator wrote:... I note that you used flat-sawn boards. This will increase your loss rate somewhat (I don't know how much) because of the orientation of the oak's medullary rays, which on your barrel are pointing from the inside of your barrel to the outside. I recommend using only quarter sawn oak in the future ...

I do not understand that, I do not know what's going on, can you explain?

I also hope that the oak was adequately aged.

As soon as the barrel stops leaking, it will take its toll on the apple distillate.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby Skipper1953 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:14 am

Check this link for an explanation of quarter sawn vs flat or plain sawn lumber. You can also get a look at a picture of medullary rays.


https://www.google.com/search?q=&tbm=is ... 8612821444
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby Badmotivator » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:06 pm

pretender wrote:I do not understand that, I do not know what's going on, can you explain?

Medullary rays are tubes which carry nutrients horizontally across a tree. Oak wood can be as much as 30% medullary ray. That's a lot of tubes!
Tree-Diagram.png


Flat sawn boards have the medullary rays pointing from one face to the other. If you make a barrel head with this the medullary rays can carry spirit right out of the barrel. Your loss rate may be quite high.
Quarter Rift Flat.png

Quarter sawn boards have the medullary rays pointing across the face of the board, and so they are in the plane of the barrel head.
oak-grain-explained.jpg


I hope these diagrams help.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby pretender » Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:10 pm

hmmmm .... how many variables affect it all ...
Thx Skip, now I understand.
I am curious whether they are getting me such boards.

Badmo
Yes, now everything is clear. I hope the ones that I have will prove to be good.

Thank you gentlemen for the explanation, as usual helpful

PS
Leaks are getting smaller
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby OtisT » Tue Oct 24, 2017 1:52 pm

My New Yard Feature.

BadMo, you said I needed to age my oak outside for a year or two, and I’m marking my 2019 calendar now to make my first BadMo Bran-Marie oak barrel. I’m using the legs of an abandoned couch and chair project. 30 lineal feet of 2 3/4” x 2 3/4” heavy flake quarter sawn American white oak. I bundled it up with stickers in between for spacing and stuck them in my backyard.

I covered the bundle with some boards, allowing air between. Look about right, or do I need to ditch the cover?

D5A10AB2-F904-40D8-B72E-EA7429349DEE.jpeg
Started as couch legs

4B56B87E-1646-44E8-94C3-43333FB0F3AA.jpeg
Bundled

F337742E-2757-425D-BB6F-351B66641D93.jpeg
Waiting patiently in the weather
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby yakattack » Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:35 pm

Just a suggestion. You're going to want to mill the lumber closer to the size you're going to use. Those look to be 4x4? You're not going to get the same weathering effect while they are still that thick. 1.25 inch or 1.5 inch would be better suited for your needs.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby Badmotivator » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:18 pm

Good on you, Otis!

Yeah, the cover is contraindicated. The rain is an important cofactor in seasoning the wood.

And listen to the wise yak. You should definitely cut merrains out of that lumber. It will allow the wood to get the right amount of exposure to air and water, allow the tannins to exit the wood or be converted into better stuff. The merrains should be about 9 inches long, 3 ⅛ inches wide, and 1 ¼ inches thick. Those dimensions leave you room for shrinkage and then planing and jointing before barrel construction, resulting in staves that will sized so that three of them can make an 8" round, 1 ⅛ " thick, with a little waste.

Cheers!
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby OtisT » Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:33 pm

Badmotivator wrote:Good on you, Otis!

Yeah, the cover is contraindicated. The rain is an important cofactor in seasoning the wood.

And listen to the wise yak. You should definitely cut merrains out of that lumber. It will allow the wood to get the right amount of exposure to air and water, allow the tannins to exit the wood or be converted into better stuff. The merrains should be about 9 inches long, 3 ⅛ inches wide, and 1 ¼ inches thick. Those dimensions leave you room for shrinkage and then planing and jointing before barrel construction, resulting in staves that will sized so that three of them can make an 8" round, 1 ⅛ " thick, with a little waste.

Cheers!


Ok, the cover will go. I just reread the thread start to finish again and realized my covering mistake. I’ll also turn my bundle 90deg every 2 months to get things evenly wet.

I was thinking that 1 1/8” thick was not quite enough thickness, based on the evaporation stats in past posts. Like you, my production way outpaces my consumption, so long aging is fine with me. I was thinking of something a bit thicker, maybe 1 1/2” thick on a 5 or 6 qt pan. Do you think that is overkill? Given that I will be cutting these down, i could go even thicker. I could get double the yield by splitting, but I just don’t want to regret not doing these right.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby Badmotivator » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:57 pm

OtisT wrote:Ok, the cover will go. I just reread the thread start to finish again and realized my covering mistake. I’ll also turn my bundle 90deg every 2 months to get things evenly wet.

I was thinking that 1 1/8” thick was not quite enough thickness, based on the evaporation stats in past posts. Like you, my production way outpaces my consumption, so long aging is fine with me. I was thinking of something a bit thicker, maybe 1 1/2” thick on a 5 or 6 qt pan. Do you think that is overkill? Given that I will be cutting these down, i could go even thicker. I could get double the yield by splitting, but I just don’t want to regret not doing these right.


Thicker staves probably have a lower loss rate, but they also have a lower oxygenation rate so your spirit will mature slower than even a large oak barrel. Big barrel staves are about an inch thick, with 1 ⅛ at the extreme. My hunch is that my loss rate has improved a lot since I last talked about it, though I haven't measured it. Here's why:
  • My jointing is better. I have moved to using a flush-cut bit on my router table to make beautiful glassy-smooth flat joints. Compared to "jointing" on my table saw, it's no contest.
  • I paint beeswax between every stave, providing extra insurance against leaks between the staves.
  • I cut my round on a circle-cutting jig on my little bandsaw. This makes a better circle than the jig I was using on my router table, and with a better taper too.
  • I wax up the spigot stem and use the nut to pull it tight up to the face of the barrel head.
  • I paint beeswax around the edge of the head before pressing it in, providing extra leak insurance at the wood-stainless interface.

Two pictures of older barrels:
IMG_3211.JPG
IMG_3213.JPG


And one picture of newer barrels with the improved construction:
IMG_3214.JPG


By the way, that dark tarry stuff underneath those weepy barrels is intensely aromatic wood sugar stuff. If you ever see that stuff on your barrel, make sure to smell it. Amazing. Also by the way, that leaky rum barrel (#18) has some fascinating rum in it, with powerful, dominant, crazy butterscotch flavors from who-knows-where.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby yakattack » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:46 am

BadMO. Have you considered using a t and g router setup? This would allow the oak to swell into each other possibly creating a better seal. If you've already tried it and it failed let me know so I know to avoid it.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby Badmotivator » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:18 am

yakattack wrote:BadMO. Have you considered using a t and g router setup? This would allow the oak to swell into each other possibly creating a better seal. If you've already tried it and it failed let me know so I know to avoid it.
Nope. It’s worth a try, I suppose. I’d be interested in what you find.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby OtisT » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:03 am

Ok, so an inch+ should be good enough if I get a good seal, and because it’s quarter sawn, my evaporation should be reduced. I guess I need to break out my thin kerf blade and split these things now before they get out of square. Damn, that is a shit load of BadMo barrel heads there. :-). Thanks for setting me straight before I let this stuff sit out all year. :-)

I like the idea of a shaped edge between boards. I was planning to go this route ( pun not intended). I think I have a router bit that will do the trick.

I like your bevel bit set for making the bung and hole. I may have to look for one of those if I can’t make what I have work.

Thanks again. I’ll be back to this next year when my wood is ready. Not sure if I’ll want to wait more than about 9 months, but before then I’ll do more reading on aging/weathering wood to see for sure how long I should be doing this. If water and frequent weather changes are what drive wood weathering, I’m in the right region (Pacific North Wet) to speed this up. ;-)

[update. I left three thick for a big barrel project, and split 6. Let the rains begin. :-)]
Wood.JPG
Future BBOB barrel heads
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby pretender » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:01 pm

Badmo in spite of poorly cut planks, after 24 hours of flooding the distillate everything is fine. No leaks, nothing left. Although yesterday was a moment of terror when flooding. When I poured the distillate I noticed on the joint the wood was leaking steel, the lid became wet. But this morning, everything went back to normal. Density difference water alcohol?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby Badmotivator » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:33 pm

pretender wrote:Badmo in spite of poorly cut planks, after 24 hours of flooding the distillate everything is fine. No leaks, nothing left. Although yesterday was a moment of terror when flooding. When I poured the distillate I noticed on the joint the wood was leaking steel, the lid became wet. But this morning, everything went back to normal. Density difference water alcohol?


That's great news! I don't have a good explanation for the strange behavior. There's still some mystery involved in this for me... :)

Congratulations! Would you post a picture?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby pretender » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:32 am

Of course. I still have to work on aesthetics. But I have already ordered a pipe for the next barrel. I also see some things that I would have done differently, for example, I would put the boards upright, the edges of the boards with sandpaper - necessarily. And burn the decks, maybe a roast? But how? As you think, just put a metal plate on the gas stove and burn the wood on it?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Postby Badmotivator » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:11 pm

pretender wrote:Of course. I still have to work on aesthetics. But I have already ordered a pipe for the next barrel. I also see some things that I would have done differently, for example, I would put the boards upright, the edges of the boards with sandpaper - necessarily. And burn the decks, maybe a roast? But how? As you think, just put a metal plate on the gas stove and burn the wood on it?


Nice! I love it! I especially like the little legs. :)

I would love to answer your question about “burning the decks” but I don’t quite understand what you mean. If you will clarify the question I’ll see what I can do.
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