Oak and whiskey

Treatment and handling of your distillate.

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FL Brewer
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by FL Brewer »

MDH wrote:The transition of higher ABV to lower or vice versa over time means a wide range of compounds are extracted gradually in conventional aging.
That's a real interesting point..... Barrel aging means loss of the angel's share, and decreasing ABV with time. I (and from what I've read, most others on this forum) age in glass, so we don't get the change in ABV over time, or at least not nearly as much of a change. Maybe that's just begging for an experiment where we age in glass starting at 60% for few months, then dilute to 57.5% for a few months, then 55% for a few more.....

So many ideas for experiments, I need more whiskey drinking friends to contribute to some large sample statistically significant evaluations....
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by bluefish_dist »

Or if you are in a dry climate the abv goes up.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by HDNB »

bluefish_dist wrote:Or if you are in a dry climate the abv goes up.
so they say, but it's dry as a popcorn fart up here. the water is frozen out the air... and my barrels have been losing 6%abv

losing lots of volume as well.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Honest_Liberty »

I'm very excited because I just ordered a few pounds of seasoned white oak heart chunks off eBay for $20 free shipping. It arrives Thursday and I have 3/4 gallon of rye bread sugar head at 57% that was run with my low wines from a previous sweet feed sour mash. This has been my best stuff yet but I'm still not fond of the molasses profile at the back end. I'm planning to age this on the oak when I get it and toast it.

Here are my thoughts:
380 to 420 is the heat range I think I'm shooting for but I'm still unsure how long to toast in the oven. I'm also unsure of how to know when enough char is reached when I hold it over the Cherry wood fire outside.

I'm thinking 380 per chunk for 3 hours, then I'll char, soak in water, then I'll split after wards, in hopes of different depth of toast through the thick chunks.

Any thoughts?
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Copper_clad »

How often do you change the wood out when aging in glass jugs?
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by HDNB »

Copper_clad wrote:How often do you change the wood out when aging in glass jugs?
i seem to change out the whisky more than the wood.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond »

HDNB wrote:
Copper_clad wrote:How often do you change the wood out when aging in glass jugs?
i seem to change out the whisky more than the wood.
:lol: :thumbup:

Same. Never have changed the wood, come to think of it. Added more once, that set my whiskey back a year!
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by corene1 »

HDNB wrote:
Copper_clad wrote:How often do you change the wood out when aging in glass jugs?
i seem to change out the whisky more than the wood.
Ha! That is perfect!
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Jimbo »

corene1 wrote:
HDNB wrote:
Copper_clad wrote:How often do you change the wood out when aging in glass jugs?
i seem to change out the whisky more than the wood.
Ha! That is perfect!
+1 perfect indeed
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by dukethebeagle120 »

I Do makers grain bill.
I recently mixed heads which werequite smooth with some Tails.
Hell after 2 Weeks with one lump of charcoal and 2 staves IT is great.can't Wait till IT is older.
I leave a coffre Filter on to IT airs always.
There is no hearts in the jars..
More of an experiment
I Read of someone on hear aging the heads and Tails separatly from the hearts.
I has more flavor then anything i gave made just with hearts
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by corene1 »

It's been awhile since I have made any whiskey so I am setting up my still again and going to make a bit of whisky to age. Since I was cutting wood today I thought I might show how I get and prepare my wood for aging and see if it is similar to how others do theirs. I start by going to the mountains and find a nice white oak log that has been down a while but not touching the ground. This makes the wood well seasoned to start with. I cut it into rounds about 5 inches thick and like the wood to be 12 to 18 inches in diameter to start with . I will then bring it home and cut it into 1 inch and 3/4 inch slabs. From there I will toast it to 350 degrees so it is a nice brown throughout the entire stick . put a nice char on it and it is ready to soak for a day. Then let it dry and it is ready to go when needed. You can see the white softwood on the outer side of the wood, that is removed and only the prime heartwood is used.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by zach »

Nice tip Corene! Thanks.

I've been looking on the interweb at the differences between white (valley) and black oak trees so I have a chance of getting the white oak.
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I've seen both types in the foothills.

Has anyone tried california black oak?
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by OtisT »

I can’t recall where I read it, but I did read somewhere that California black oak is not good for aging spirits. If you have access to it, it may be worth a try yourself but I would recommend testing on a small batch. Full disclosure, that warning I read may have been in reference to using black oak for barrels due to grain issues, so don’t just take my word for it. (I’ve done a lot of reading on this and can’t always keep it all straight. CRS Syndrome.)

Where I’m from we have an abundance of both California Black Oak and Oregon Oak. I have been using Oregon Oak and comparing it to Am White Oak and I’ve had some early success with the Or Oak. Also I found a chemical analysis of Oregon Oak for use in wine aging that says it is similar to French Oak. Like French Oak it is higher in tannins compared to Am White Oak so longer seasoning is required. I have some seasoned Or Oak and in my experience so far the Or Oak has a lighter touch than the Am White Oak.

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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by corene1 »

OtisT wrote:I can’t recall where I read it, but I did read somewhere that California black oak is not good for aging spirits. If you have access to it, it may be worth a try yourself but I would recommend testing on a small batch. Full disclosure, that warning I read may have been in reference to using black oak for barrels due to grain issues, so don’t just take my word for it. (I’ve done a lot of reading on this and can’t always keep it all straight. CRS Syndrome.)

Where I’m from we have an abundance of both California Black Oak and Oregon Oak. I have been using Oregon Oak and comparing it to Am White Oak and I’ve had some early success with the Or Oak. Also I found a chemical analysis of Oregon Oak for use in wine aging that says it is similar to French Oak. Like French Oak it is higher in tannins compared to Am White Oak so longer seasoning is required. I have some seasoned Or Oak and in my experience so far the Or Oak has a lighter touch than the Am White Oak.

Otis
I did some reading on California black oak as well and it was saying it is very close to red oak in it's basic makeup. We have a bunch of different oaks in our area , thankfully white oak is one of them.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Oldvine Zin »

just saying - putting wood into jars is just making tea, for the full effect a real barrel or a Bad Mo,

just my thoughts
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Shinerfortyniner »

I've used locally sourced valley oak. I split it and seasoned it on the woodpile turning it occasionally. Then I cut it into 3/4 x 3/4 sticks and toasted it. I used the toasting chart to try and get a vanilla character. Can't remember the temp.

I haven't been very happy with it. It seems to make the spirits a bit rough. I thought maybe it was too much tannin, but when I put the already oaked spirits into a small barrel my wife gave me for xmas, they started tasting better pretty quick.

Anyone have a different experience with valley oak?
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by 8Ball »

Bobdoe wrote: Mon May 04, 2015 6:15 pm I hope this question is on-topic. Bear with me here: I enjoy a nice cigar now and then and I can taste a definite difference when I light a cigar off a lighter vs one lit with a piece of burning wood.

So, is charring a piece of wood with a torch going to give different flavors to a drink compared to a piece of oak or other wood that is charred with wood flame?

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I think, yes. I had a conversation with a cooper from whom I’ve obtained stave cut offs and shavings. He advised to make a little stack of “bones” with the split stave ends and then start a fire in the center using the shavings. He said to get it all burning good, then douse them in a bucket of water. I do just that and am happy with the results. BTW, I use foreshots to start the fire.

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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Twisted Brick »

8Ball wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:26 am
Bobdoe wrote: Mon May 04, 2015 6:15 pm I hope this question is on-topic. Bear with me here: I enjoy a nice cigar now and then and I can taste a definite difference when I light a cigar off a lighter vs one lit with a piece of burning wood.

So, is charring a piece of wood with a torch going to give different flavors to a drink compared to a piece of oak or other wood that is charred with wood flame?

Bobdoe
I think, yes. I had a conversation with a cooper from whom I’ve obtained stave cut offs and shavings. He advised to make a little stack of “bones” with the split stave ends and then start a fire in the center using the shavings. He said to get it all burning good, then douse them in a bucket of water. I do just that and am happy with the results. BTW, I use foreshots to start the fire.

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Good to know, 8ball. Thanks for sharing.
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Oak and whiskey

Post by HodyMac »

Pretty much a newbie, here.

I’ve got some oak from a wine (Cabernet Sauvignon) barrel. I’ve cut it into fingers. What is the recommended treatment? Re-toast then char?

How about reusing the fingers with following batches of product?
Last edited by HodyMac on Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by River Rat »

I've never used wine barrel staves but have used a ton of bourbon barrel staves. I plane them down a little to get into fresh clean wood, toast in the oven for three hours at 400*F, then char with a propane or mapp torch. After charring I give them a quick soak in distilled water and then toss them in the whiskey. Works great for me.
If you're making a rum you might consider skipping the char. I haven't made any rum but a lot of people on here that do, only toast their oak.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by HodyMac »

River Rat wrote:I've never used wine barrel staves but have used a ton of bourbon barrel staves. I plane them down a little to get into fresh clean wood, toast in the oven for three hours at 400*F, then char with a propane or mapp torch. After charring I give them a quick soak in distilled water and then toss them in the whiskey. Works great for me.
If you're making a rum you might consider skipping the char. I haven't made any rum but a lot of people on here that do, only toast their oak.
Thanks, River Rat...
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Honest_Liberty »

Do you think there is a noticeable difference once the staves are cleaned? I only had access to wine planter barrels because I hemhawwed around and didn't jump on the Jack daniels ones.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by River Rat »

If you're asking me, I'm not sure because I have never used any without planing them down to clean wood. If your staves are pretty clean it probably wouldn't make any difference. I do it to get rid of the rust from where the hoops were. And to get rid of what we call the "whiskey fungus" around here. It's a black fungus that grows on everything for miles around each distillery and barrel house. It grows on trees, road signs, my house & vehicle, and the outside of the staves from the barrels.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Twisted Brick »

HodyMac wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:59 pm Pretty much a newbie, here.

I’ve got some oak from a wine (Cabernet Sauvignon) barrel. I’ve cut it into fingers. What is the recommended treatment? Re-toast then char?

How about reusing the fingers with following batches of product?
I started out with wine barrel staves and after sanding 6 x 1/4 x 1/2" sticks I re-toasted and charred them with a torch. I was very happy with what they did to my rye and wheat bourbons. Be prepared though, that your spirit will change as it ages. On sticks, my newmake went from tasty to nicely nuanced with oak with a nice oaky polish. Then it turned hot and harsh for a few months. After a year it smoothed out and cooled down, but still suffered from me cutting too much heads into it (I think). Perhaps the batch I'm going to put in a barrel wont have that problem because its, well, a barrel that breathes 24/7. After 18mo's I felt I had over-oaked the spirit, but after I removed the sticks the strong wood taste subsided.

If you want the wine flavor and color contributions, just char the non-wine side. Re-using the sticks on a second batch of bourbon produced a slightly less oak-intense flavor that I preferred over the first batch.

If you haven't seen it, this thread on Learning to Toast is excellent. Not knowing what level of toast went into your wine barrel, you're gonna have to test yours, but that's half the fun of this hobby.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by HodyMac »

Twisted Brick wrote:
HodyMac wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:59 pm Pretty much a newbie, here.

I’ve got some oak from a wine (Cabernet Sauvignon) barrel. I’ve cut it into fingers. What is the recommended treatment? Re-toast then char?

How about reusing the fingers with following batches of product?
I started out with wine barrel staves and after sanding 6 x 1/4 x 1/2" sticks I re-toasted and charred them with a torch. I was very happy with what they did to my rye and wheat bourbons. Be prepared though, that your spirit will change as it ages. On sticks, my newmake went from tasty to nicely nuanced with oak with a nice oaky polish. Then it turned hot and harsh for a few months. After a year it smoothed out and cooled down, but still suffered from me cutting too much heads into it (I think). Perhaps the batch I'm going to put in a barrel wont have that problem because its, well, a barrel that breathes 24/7. After 18mo's I felt I had over-oaked the spirit, but after I removed the sticks the strong wood taste subsided.

If you want the wine flavor and color contributions, just char the non-wine side. Re-using the sticks on a second batch of bourbon produced a slightly less oak-intense flavor that I preferred over the first batch.

If you haven't seen it, this thread on Learning to Toast is excellent. Not knowing what level of toast went into your wine barrel, you're gonna have to test yours, but that's half the fun of this hobby.
Thanks, TB.

I’ve done a few variations. I haven’t planed the outside of the staves completely.
I have re-toasted and not re-toasted. I think I like roasting.
For aging grappa I’ve soaked some stave sticks in port for a while, dried, then aged the grappa with the “port cask oak” — came out great.

Still working with a few versions of an all barley whiskey. Pretty happy, so far. Some have been staves I’ve soaked in bourbon for a bit, dried, then put my new-make on to age. Been playing with toast no char, toast light char, etc...
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Honest_Liberty »

All of this is why I want to make 53 gallons and just purchase a new charred oak barrel...


Then I look at the hours involved
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Re: Oak and whiskey

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Honest_Liberty wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:18 am All of this is why I want to make 53 gallons and just purchase a new charred oak barrel...


Then I look at the hours involved
Just fill 10 five gallon barrels, buy em as you need em. Do you have any local micro distilleries near by? Ours sells their once used 5 gallon barrels for $50, (must pick up) They even give you a new bung if you ask for it.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Expat »

Honest_Liberty wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:18 am All of this is why I want to make 53 gallons and just purchase a new charred oak barrel...


Then I look at the hours involved
It's hard to imagine being able to make enough product to justify such a large barrel. Consider that filling a 5g barrel is roughly 220lb of grains and 110 gallons of ferment. Sooo... The large barrel would be 2400lb of grain and 1200 gallons of ferment. Not to mention countless stripping / Spirit runs. Basically impossible and undesirable at the hobby scale.

Smaller barrels are key :)
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by nerdybrewer »

Expat wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 12:27 pm
Honest_Liberty wrote: Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:18 am All of this is why I want to make 53 gallons and just purchase a new charred oak barrel...


Then I look at the hours involved
It's hard to imagine being able to make enough product to justify such a large barrel. Consider that filling a 5g barrel is roughly 220lb of grains and 110 gallons of ferment. Sooo... The large barrel would be 2400lb of grain and 1200 gallons of ferment. Not to mention countless stripping / Spirit runs. Basically impossible and undesirable at the hobby scale.

Smaller barrels are key :)
Just adding that the larger the barrel the longer you need to age your product.
There is some math and I know some member(s) have worked it out.

Basically there's a way to work out how much surface area inside the barrel that's in contact with the spirit relates to the volume of spirit in the barrel.
The greater the exposure to the inside of the barrel per unit of volume the faster the barrel effects (ages) the spirit.
There's good reason those large barrels are aged 10 plus years, you can get a very close approximation with a smaller (5 gallon) barrel in 2 to 3 years.
I recall working out that my 8 gallon barrel had the effect (relative to a 55 gallon barrel) of aging the equivalent of 5 to 7 years for every one year inside.

Adding onto the subject of wine staves, for the rum I have now bottled which is a solidly aged 3 year old (really 3.5) I aged it in a once used Bourbon barrel and put in cut down staves from a Columbia winery (bought directly from them, so I know where the wood spent it's life).
The wine staves were added during the 3rd year and left in until I dumped the barrel for bottling.

I wouldn't do it this way if I didn't have a clear knowledge of where the wood had been and what had happened to it.
This imparted a deep color and definitely helped with finishing giving it a more complex flavor.
Cranky's spoonfeeding:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52975

Time and Oak will sort it out.
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Re: Oak and whiskey

Post by Honest_Liberty »

I'm in Denver metro. I can source once used barrels for $75. The oak sticks I made from half barrel used wine barrel from Lowe's, sanded, toasted, and recharred: I'm monitoring on bulk aging in 5 gallon glass carboys. I am going to fill a 53 gallon barrel next off-season. I already told my wife I'm buying a larger still, finishing the brew room, and getting serious so I can discover the proper aging experience. It'll stay in the garage. Temps swing wildly here in Denver metro. By the time it's done, I'll be done building our cabin to live in on the property.

When we purchase the 200+ acres out east in a few months with some friends, after splitting it, I'm going to set myself up to do large batches for all the fruit trees in going to plant. Use the year round stream for water and condensing water. From what I'm tasting with brandies, I'll have much better success producing high quality spirits with fruit brandies. More research is needed, but tasting notes are very promising already comparatively.

I'm going to start a distillery at that point because literally my full time job will be tending to the homestead. Growing crops, milling lumber for local sale, raising bees for honey and Mead, it'll be a straight up large scale micro distillery. Harvest season and then time for distilling.

My wife already agrees that's what I'm meant to do. Until then, maybe 5 years until I'll be able to move there, I'm basically doing R&D. I'm consuming 5+ hours of reading a day plus personal experience.

I don't have the trust in small aging. I want to source a quality barrel and fill it, so I can know. That's my aim
Sweetfeed 100 proof for drinking white
All grain bourbon for testing my patience
Whatever else is left goes to the Homefree, because, I hate waste
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