The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:36 pm

TDick, is the board you are talking about quarter-sawn or flat sawn? You gotta use quarter-sawn.

Rounds from a log are no good either; even if you don’t have cracks you will lose too much through the capillary tubes. Earlier in the thread there is information about the structure of wood and why you use quarter-sawn wood exclusively.

If you are in the US you should be able to find new stainless cans in the $10-$12 range pretty easily, like on webstaurantstore.com.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by drummstikk » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:52 pm

Badmo, after seasoning, do you ever remove wood from the inner surface of the stave before toasting? Or are you toasting the wood that was exposed to the elements?

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The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:38 pm

drummstikk wrote:Badmo, after seasoning, do you ever remove wood from the inner surface of the stave before toasting? Or are you toasting the wood that was exposed to the elements?
I always plane one face of the seasoned wood and toast that face. The other face and the sides will get cleaned up in later operations. The reason I plane it before toasting is that there is a lot of dirt, tannin stains, microbes, fir needles, spiderwebs, whatever on the wood after it is seasoned, and I have no desire to taste that stuff later. Also I want a flat surface to toast on my griddle.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by CatCrap » Tue May 08, 2018 9:32 pm

This is a brilliant process and thread. BadMo this is truly one of the most innovative ideas i've seen on HD. Very clever solution, clearly well thought out, and i admire the amount of detail you've put into perfecting the process. It take's a wise man to know when to change his method to improve. And also a wise man to know when NOT to change. I like that you have been very welcoming of input from folks, and kind and understanding in your explanations of why you will or won't use another method. I've learned a ton from this thread. Had no idea what quarter sawn meant before this. Makes perfect sense why that is the optimal wood-cut to use for this project. Also, have you found that switching to the biscuit cutter and biscuits has been a major improvement? It seems much simpler and more approachable than the wooden dowels you had started out with. Although, one caveat, what do you use to cut the "biscuit holes" that the biscuits go into? It is some sort of specialized blade or something?

If someone were just starting out this process.. what is the best or most efficient way to season the oak needed for the lid? Buy used staves (then they need to be straightened, which seems a bit difficult)? Buy the quarter sawn oak, and weather it outside? Buy the oak and weather using another method? I know you had mentioned some tests earlier about the optimal time or process it takes to season oak. Did you figure out a definitive amount of time, wherein it is enough time to remove most tannins, but no longer than necessary?

Thanks for sharing this and putting so much time into documenting the process. For anyone reading this thread who's interested, the Youtube step by step process is a must see.

CC

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Fri May 11, 2018 5:10 pm

CatCrap wrote:...

Although, one caveat, what do you use to cut the "biscuit holes" that the biscuits go into? It is some sort of specialized blade or something?

If someone were just starting out this process.. what is the best or most efficient way to season the oak needed for the lid? Buy used staves (then they need to be straightened, which seems a bit difficult)? Buy the quarter sawn oak, and weather it outside? Buy the oak and weather using another method? I know you had mentioned some tests earlier about the optimal time or process it takes to season oak. Did you figure out a definitive amount of time, wherein it is enough time to remove most tannins, but no longer than necessary?

Thanks for sharing this and putting so much time into documenting the process. For anyone reading this thread who's interested, the Youtube step by step process is a must see.

CC
Thanks, CC. I really appreciate your feedback and your questions.

The biscuit holes are cut with a cheap Harbor Freight "biscuit joiner", which is a small circular saw set horizontally which is pressed edge-on into the face of the joint. I was pretty happy with how well it worked, and it was far less work than the dowel joinery. I have re-tooled though, and moved on to tongue-and-groove joinery, on the very early recommendation of cob, who wrote:
cob wrote: I didn't see any leakage at your joints but a tight tongue and groove joint could be insurance, made with a router, table saw, Stanley #45 wood plane.
I use some badass Freud adjustable T&G router bits rather than a hand plane, and I get that joint nice and tight, and then also add a stripe of beeswax.

I'm sorry I don't have some awesome method for speedily preparing the wood. I never completed my soaking-draining experiment. That is still available to someone else if they'd like to do it. :) The results didn't matter to me at some point; I have a good stock of white oak weathering in my back yard and had no interest in doing it faster. Also, I came to believe that a fast soak system would still only get some or most of the way to the quality of well-seasoned wood, for a number of reasons. I know it works to weather it in the traditional way, and once you get inventory in the yard and keep replenishing it, you don't have any work or worry. I did make a few barrels out of used staves by steaming them and pressing them flat. It worked, but added a pretty significant amount of work to the cooperage, and I elected to stop all that and focus on improving the standard new-oak barrel.

So my advice to you is to buy a bunch of wood, rip and chop it, stack it outside, reserving a small amount for experiments. Six months really isn't that long to wait, and during that time you can practice cooperage (if that's your interest) on some fresh wood.

By the way, I hope to add a couple of new videos to the playlist soon: one on T&G joinery (about which I know next to nothing except in this narrow domain) and one on cauterizing bungholes. :)

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by The Baker » Fri May 11, 2018 5:27 pm

Badmo said, '....cauterizing bungholes. '

Puckered up when I read that!

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Fri May 11, 2018 6:00 pm

The Baker wrote:Badmo said, '....cauterizing bungholes. '

Puckered up when I read that!

Geoff
Well you know, after you ream out a bunghole really good your wood gets kind of ragged and torn, so you should cauterize it. A smooth bunghole is a tight bunghole. No one wants a leaky bunghole, Baker.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by nerdybrewer » Fri May 11, 2018 7:18 pm

Badmotivator wrote:
The Baker wrote:Badmo said, '....cauterizing bungholes. '

Puckered up when I read that!

Geoff
Well you know, after you ream out a bunghole really good your wood gets kind of ragged and torn, so you should cauterize it. A smooth bunghole is a tight bunghole. No one wants a leaky bunghole, Baker.
We're all still talking about oak and barrels right?
:crazy: :roll: :oops:
Cranky's spoonfeeding:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=52975

Time and Oak will sort it out.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by CatCrap » Fri May 11, 2018 10:43 pm

oh good lord. Check. My bunghole is puckered.


Hey, Badmo, thanks alot for the response. Gotta say.. you have inspired me to take this on. I would still be interested in getting some Originals from the Master himself in the mean time, but, i'm going to get some oak and get it a - seasonin.
So.. what to buy... I'm no slouch, so i'll look back through the thread and find the dimensions (i know i wan't 1.5" thick boards, because i want to end up with 1.25" ISH boards after all the processing) of the pieces of oak i need. I know i need "Quarter Sawn" oak, which i've learned what that means. I know i need it to be ONLY white american oak, and not be processed or treated in any way. So, i'll get a good stack of it, and stack it out on my balcony, to sit in the wind, rain, and snow, and then let it sit til about next spring, when it warms up again and starts to dry out. So my own BadMo barrels will start to get built around next spring. First step, find the wood i need, second step Season, in the mean time, source the Bain Marie's them self (as a chef i've got plenty of options and sources there), and gather the tools i need. I know you mentioned you might be able to put together a list of tools that would be needed and useful for this project. That would be an enormous help, of course, but i Know you've done a ton of work already here, and i don't expect you to spoon feed the rest.

But, i will ask lots of questions, and forgive me if many are quite noob.

When you say "rip" i get the feeling from context that's jargon for "cut boards lengthwise" or not lengthwise? (just into smaller pieces?), or to cut across the grain into the size pieces i need (basically turning whatever Oak i buy, into the "Merrains" that will get stacked 3X3 for seasoning outside) Being a very ultra novice woodworker, with only a jigsaw to my name (as far as saws go) what kind of Saw am i looking to purchase for this project? I have a very basic understanding of the different types of saws and what they do, but even basic is generous here. I'm happy to do lots of google research on my own here, but, what kind of saw is my best bet here for general big piece woodwork? A circular saw? ( i have a saw horse, will that be enough to use it, or do i need a table for it too?) I'm in the process of buying or building a work bench for these kinds of projects.

So, even if you can't get to that full list of equipment, could you kindly just give me a rundown of the most basic tools i will need for this project? Maybe some other members would benefit from this as well, it sounds like there WAS some interest from other people in taking this on, and i know a few people made this same barrel design also. But i think you took it the furthest and really made it with the most success. I don't mind dropping some coin, but i don't think i need to get super top of the line shit. I'm sure with harbor freight and their very affordable stuff and lots of coupons, this is well within my price range. And i love to get new tools and projects to use them for. As long as I take care of them, they will last for a good long time.
Sorry, i get a bit rambly and unfocused, but, hope you get my drift. Thanks again for such a great thread, project, contribution and just awesome Idea all around. I'm sure the big guy has a special place for you up thar in HD heaven. :ewink:

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by The Baker » Sat May 12, 2018 3:59 am

In the good old days in woodwork class at school we learnt that a rip saw is for cutting with the grain; and a CROSS CUT saw is, wait for it, for cutting across the grain.
No electric equipment in that workshop except for a few big free-standing machines.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by OtisT » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:35 am

The Baker wrote:In the good old days in woodwork class at school we learnt that a rip saw is for cutting with the grain; and a CROSS CUT saw is, wait for it, for cutting across the grain.
No electric equipment in that workshop except for a few big free-standing machines.

Geoff
I hear ya man. They don't teach much about what is involved in making things by hand these days. As an example, I re-hung a door for a neighbor yesterday as he watched. Of all the work/tools involved, he was amazed with and kept commenting on how cool my chisel was and how quickly and nice it worked "routing" out for hinges and the other hardware. It got a little embarrassing with all the repeated compliments on my chisel work. "Who would think such a simple tool can do such nice work." I finally shared with him that not so long ago everything was made with hand tools and that after 100s of years of use and refinement they came up with some useful tools.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by OtisT » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:48 am

Hi Badmo, hope you are well. I Just filled the last of my 6 Badmo style barrels and it's been a fun run.

1) Honey bear bourbon
2) Sugar Head on HBB grains
3) High ester rum
4) High ester bourbon
5) Med/Lt peated whiskey
6) Med peated whiskey
7) Gave to my best friend for a bourbon he made

Come visit some time for some samples. I am getting some very nice feedback on my HBB coming out of my first barrel after only 6 months. :-)

I have seasoned oak for another half dozen or more barrels and will be making jigs for making these barrels on my own very soon. I still think these are the best thing since pop corn for hobby distillers. I have shit in jars over a year old that don't smell nearly as mature as what I get after only a few months Badmo.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:04 am

OtisT wrote:Hi Badmo, hope you are well. I Just filled the last of my 6 Badmo style barrels and it's been a fun run.
...

Come visit some time for some samples. I am getting some very nice feedback on my HBB coming out of my first barrel after only 6 months. :-)

I have seasoned oak for another half dozen or more barrels and will be making jigs for making these barrels on my own very soon. I still think these are the best thing since pop corn for hobby distillers. I have shit in jars over a year old that don't smell nearly as mature as what I get after only a few months Badmo.

Otis
All good down here, my friend. Thanks for the note! I'm really gratified to hear the you like them. If you want to do another "build day" down in my shop some time this summer it wouldn't take much to convince me. :)

My tooling and processes have improved. I bought a newer, safer table saw, a jointer, and tongue-and-groove bits and a second router table to reduce tool changes. I worked out a variable-radius circle sanding jig that helps to smooth and refine a very precise circle sized perfectly (almost) every time. Also, I improved my shield for the charring step a little and added that bunghole cauterizer. Things are looking up. :) I am hoping to get some more videos up soon showing these alternative techniques.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by OtisT » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:00 am

Badmotivator wrote:All good down here, my friend. Thanks for the note! I'm really gratified to hear the you like them. If you want to do another "build day" down in my shop some time this summer it wouldn't take much to convince me. :
That sounds like fun, coming down to make a new batch with you. It will be weeks before I have toasted wood to work with, sometime after Independance Day. I should at least see your new jigs before I go making my own, to pick up any design improvements I could take advantage of.

I will be passing through in a few weeks, and if the timing is right I’ll message you first so maybe we can meet for a coffee.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by distiller_dresden » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:18 pm

Man, I am just about going bongo wanting a couple of BadMo barrels.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Copperhead road » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:33 pm

distiller_dresden wrote:Man, I am just about going bongo wanting a couple of BadMo barrels.
Have you got a link to prices ?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by distiller_dresden » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:16 am

I'm talking to BadMo; it's just not instant messenger lol
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by The Baker » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:32 am

Copperhead road wrote:
distiller_dresden wrote:Man, I am just about going bongo wanting a couple of BadMo barrels.
Have you got a link to prices ?
Badmotivator, I hope you can now send some outside the United States; it looks like Copperhead Road would like some and I am still very interested.
Just the tops would be fine, for me anyway; in one of the larger sizes, and I could get the taps and cans.

Now that you are even better set up....

Best.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by hellbilly007 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:15 am

Glad to hear all is well, BadMo. Sounds as if you're streamlining your process. I'm looking forward to getting a couple of these when possible.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by CatCrap » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:40 pm

LOL> Dude.. badmo.. you need to take this pro somehow. You're only getting more popular. If more people knew about this you'd only have more interest! I hope/wish there is some kind of serious future in this for you. I mean it! You've come up with a brilliant design... It's perfect for us HD ers.. but i could see applications for people aging at home(store bought. There must be big market for people who age/oak at home, as there are so many sources for barrels. I'm curious if it's more people who distill their own spirits (not legally) or people who buy spirit and age it, that buy all these barrels.)


So, i've ordered a circular saw so i can rip some boards. Next step, find the wood. Then rip them into the right size pieces, and put outside to weather. I'll have plenty of time to figure out the rest.

So... when i go to the lumber yard.. i'm looking for..... ?

My best guess or understanding, is i want 1.25 or 1.5 inch THICK pieces of White Oak, completely untreated. Am i buying "2 by 4s" ?? ( a 2X4 is not actually 2" thick, right? Is it also not 4" Long? Sorry this is very confusing to me... that it's called a 2 by 4 but not 2 by 4?) Sorry, very noob type questions. Just want to make sure if i buy a bunch of wood i get the right ones. Oh yea.. and it should be "quarter sawn" correct? Any other pertinent details when i order this? I've no idea how i'm going to cut the bevel on the cap edges only using my jig saw... hmm... :crazy:

Badmo, I will be looking back through the thread and your videos when i get to the next step, but, what length am i going to cut the wood pieces into? I should leave a LOT or a little space on the edge to cut the circle? Again, sorry for the noob questions. I feel like i should source my Bain Maries first, so i know waht size the opening is, and that determines the cap size, and therefore the circle size, and therefore the length of the wood pei

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Copperhead road » Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:08 am

Catcrap I have never heard or people putting store bought spirits on Oak and aging it at home, least not in Australia here. :shock:
I would say over here everyone who is buying barrels for aging spirits is either distilling it commercially or distilling it at home.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by distiller_dresden » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:17 am

Hey CatCrap - you can just go buy the wood and leave it outside, you probably don't want to cut it before you age/season it outside, you'll want to do that after you leave it outside I'd think. I'll leave BadMo to comment finality, but I would think that is what you'd want to do.

And 2x4's - they are 2" thick to start with, 4" wide to start with, they can be various lengths. Then they'll be less than 2x4/just under when you buy them, but of course whatever length you are buying is still intact, because you're buying that length. The lose in 2x4 has to do with cutting it down, and that it's a 2x4 from where it 'starts'.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by CatCrap » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:18 pm

Ah.. thanks for clarifying a bit. I thought i'd read somewhere that although they're often called a 2 by 4, they aren't actually 2 inches by 4 inches.


Also, No, i completely understand that i won't be cutting the pieces into anything near their final shape for the seasoning (leaving outside in a jenga stack) process. I just thought i'd probably by full size boards (4-6 ft? Long) and then cut those into shorter pieces. That length being so that three of them next to each other side to side will be the lid. So, the only cutting i plan to do at this initial stage, is to buy a (lets say) 6 foot long, 1.5" thick, 4" wide board, and cut it into pieces that are 2 feet long, 1.5" thick and 4" wide. So all i'm doing is cutting them into the correct length for seasoning. Then, when their seasoned i'll join 3 together, and cut that square into a circle by trimming off the edges in a circular fashion.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by distiller_dresden » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:04 am

I'm no carpenter or cooper, but that sounds absolutely right to me, CC.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by hellbilly007 » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:15 am

A typical 2"x4" is actually 1.5"x3.5". What you're needing to use for BadMo Barrels is quarter-sawn white oak. Oak sawn in this manner prevents a greater "angels share" from liquor weeping out through the wood.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by CatCrap » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:08 pm

Yes! That's exactly what I thought i'd been told or heard. A 2 by 4 is not 2 by 4.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by zed255 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:12 am

I'd suggest looking for a supplier of woods to the furniture, cabinet and musical instrument craftsman. In my locale I found these folks (no affiliation, just a customer):

A & M Wood Specialty, Cambridge, ON, Canada

Sorry, no link. Site appears to be down. I know the business is operating and have bought wood there, they seem to be very knowledgeable and helpful. They season their wood outdoors under an overhanging roof, so some additional full weathering might be in order. Stunning array of woods available too.

I have got to get some of these BadMo barrels built soon...
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by distiller_dresden » Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:50 am

Try a wood flooring supplier!
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:41 am

For those of you following along, I just posted a few more videos with construction ideas:

Setting the Sander Table Angle
https://youtu.be/GAhKDMn7-Ws" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Construction and Use of a Homemade Adjustable Circle Sanding Jig
https://youtu.be/wVerLOeEiCc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Cauterizing the Bunghole
https://youtu.be/_YUzRmnDVss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

They now live in the Start-to-Finish playlist.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:04 pm

Bad news for Badmotivator, gang. I am rebuilding my workshop, and while I was jointing some French cleat boards I got my right index finger in the jointer. It dug a pretty good hole in the last phalange, so I’m gonna be funny-looking. Even more so, I mean.

So. My hand modeling career is over, obviously. And my workshop-rebuilding is stalled for some weeks, and I won’t be able to make any barrels for quite a while. Some of you folks who are in line for barrels will need some extra patience, I’m afraid. Sorry.

Jointers are cool, but man, do they ever bite!

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