The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Treatment and handling of your distillate.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by distiller_dresden » Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:19 pm

Wow, very sorry to hear BadMo! I hope you get on the mend soon and comfortably, and don't have too much discomfort while doing so.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by The Baker » Sat Jun 30, 2018 6:23 pm

distiller_dresden wrote:Wow, very sorry to hear BadMo! I hope you get on the mend soon and comfortably, and don't have too much discomfort while doing so.
Me, too.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:44 pm

Thanks gentlemen. I'll be fine in a few weeks, with a slightly shortened finger and a healthier respect for my tools. In the mean time...

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:02 pm

LOSS RATE UPDATE

It's been a while since I tested the four barrels in my Loss Rate Test Program. Since I'm gimpy and can't do any really work I thought I'd at least haul the barrels over to the scale and crunch some numbers.
Loss Rate Test 7.18.png
The loss rate has gone down slightly in the March-June period. My best guess is that the relative humidity in the closet has been slightly higher during that period. I wish I had a good humidity logger...

The last barrel there, #52, is kept thermostatic at 90degF, while all of the other barrels are around 72degF, which explains the much higher loss rate in #52.

I am stoked to see these numbers. Each barrel shows a loss rate that varies only slightly, and the range of possible loss rates is totally acceptable or even desirable.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by distiller_dresden » Mon Jul 02, 2018 1:59 pm

Hey BadMo, if the other 3 are at 72F, what's accounting for the differences in loss rate percentage, do you think? Is there a variation in construction on the wood for those 3?

And for 52, so if that barrel was to be imitated in it's loss rate one would be keeping their barrel in a garage right now, I'm in the midwest and we're seeing temps in excess of 90F, so once I barrel up my rum to age the hotter it is the more loss I could expect, is the pattern we're seeing.

Is there any difference in construction in any of the four barrels?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Mon Jul 02, 2018 5:17 pm

distiller_dresden wrote:Hey BadMo, if the other 3 are at 72F, what's accounting for the differences in loss rate percentage, do you think? Is there a variation in construction on the wood for those 3?

And for 52, so if that barrel was to be imitated in it's loss rate one would be keeping their barrel in a garage right now, I'm in the midwest and we're seeing temps in excess of 90F, so once I barrel up my rum to age the hotter it is the more loss I could expect, is the pattern we're seeing.

Is there any difference in construction in any of the four barrels?
I believe that all four barrels have the same construction, same stave thickness. But wood is a variable natural product, of course. I can readily imagine that there are some differences in the way the grain lies on the wood, or some minor turbulences in the grain. Additionally, there is a chance there are microscopic gaps in the interface between the wood and the stainless steel, causing some extra loss in some of the barrels. I don’t know the answer, but the uncertainty is OK with me.

The environmental factors which are important here are temperature and humidity. Temperature definitely affects the rate of chemical reactions and the vapor pressure of the volatile components of your spirit. Higher temperatures speed up maturation and evaporation of the spirit. Humidity on the other hand affects only the evaporation of water from inside the barrel. While a barrel in a low humidity regime will appear to lose more, the proof will increase in the barrel, and you will add the water back to the spirit when you are proofing it down.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by distiller_dresden » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:20 pm

So you kind of want warmer temps, low humidity, for ideal conditions. That way your spirit matures, without losing too much, and balancing the loss of water so your spirit proof increases as you also lose the more volatile alcohols that are not preferred, making a smoother spirit when you finally proof it down out of the barrel... Barrel aging in Nevada or New Mexico would be great!

Oh, by the way - an update for your pride, my two new 'kids' I adopted from you :) - one barrel has 400ml of a decent tawny port in it, face down, and is holding it well leaking only from the bung, which I have hammered in pretty well and assume the wood needs to swell around it. The leaking has reduced much since this morning when I filled and turned it face down. This barrel will be drained and get 1.3-1.4L of Golden Promise malt scotch in about two months once I've fermented two batches and then fill it.

The other barrel has 375ml of Zaya Gran Reserva and 100ml of Appleton Reserve, it leaked from seams, around the ring/wood, and the bung for a while, but now it's completely leak free. Tomorrow I'll check them and place them on new double paper plates, and if by the afternoon there is no leakage they'll get topped off with another 100ml of spirits and go into the garage to let the liquor really soak into the wood.

The first batch of rum for the rum barrel I'm distilling this weekend, then setting another ferment the same recipe, so in about three weeks I'll be filling the rum barrel. I may wait another week, giving the 'season' a month to seep into the wood. In the meantime I'm getting a half gallon US cleaner for my birthday Wednesday (whee!) so I'll clean the rums to prep for the barrel. Once I have the rum done I'll immediately get the Golden Promise scotch going.

So pleased and excited with your barrels and the work BadMo! I'll be a return customer in a few months, I'm sure. :) Thanks EVER so much, my new friend. Best wishes, again, to your injury, and I hope you have a wonderful 4th of July (damn middle of the week holiday :grumble grumble:).
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:38 pm

You’ve warmed my heart, DD. Thanks. We’ll talk soon.

Gotta get a little surgery on Thursday (did you know they can move the origin of a fingernail backward so it starts in a new place? Now you do.) and heal up for a few weeks. Maybe go fishin’ with my boys a few times, finish my workshop rebuild... and then I’ll be back at it. I promise.

I love hearing stories about happy stillers. :)

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by hellbilly007 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:39 am

Just checking on ya there BadMo. Hoping all is well.

I worked for a guy that always got his fingers too close to the blade the blade of his rip saw. 20-some years later he cut off all 4 fingers of his left hand. Luckily the surgeon was able to reattach em, with most of the range of movement

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:56 am

hellbilly007 wrote:Just checking on ya there BadMo. Hoping all is well.

I worked for a guy that always got his fingers too close to the blade the blade of his rip saw. 20-some years later he cut off all 4 fingers of his left hand. Luckily the surgeon was able to reattach em, with most of the range of movement
Thanks for checking in, HB. I'm doing fine, but feeling bored and useless. The surgery went well and most of the pain is over.

My finger looks like a porcupine Frankenstein with all of the sutures sticking out of it. I'll get them removed soon, and then I start the process of catching up on a million tasks undone... whaa whaa whaa.

I ain't dying and I ain't broke and I'm getting better at opening a beer bottle with my left hand. :)

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by distiller_dresden » Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:28 pm

Badmotivator wrote: I ain't dying and I ain't broke and I'm getting better at opening a beer bottle with my left hand. :)
Cause that's the second most important thing you do with your hands!
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by hellbilly007 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:27 pm

Glad to hear your surgery went well. Keep the beer therapy goin

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by AlChemE » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:52 am

Sorry to hear about the accident Badmo! Hope it heals up quick.

So I have an idea in my head that I've been thinking about. I've had very good luck in the past with ultrasonic aging, and I'm having success so far with my two Badmo barrels. Like most of us, I can't wait to tap into my barrels. Since I can't dunk the Badmo barrel into an ultrasonic bath, and it's too much of a pain to pour whiskey out of the barrel, ultrasonicate it, then pour it back into the barrel. What if I were to directly mount an ultrasonic transducer to the back of the barrel? I mean the bain-marie is basically no different than the tank on a regular cleaning machine.

I found this $35 kit: https://www.ebay.com/itm/110V-100W-40KH ... m570.l1313" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I figure I can epoxy the transducer to the back of the barrel, make a little electrical box, and then I can manually run it for 5-10 minutes or so per day. I'm a little worried about pressure building up, the head popping off and temperatures getting warm. I plan on removing the 'bung' from my barrel during treatment, and maybe making a bracket that would put some pressure against the barrel head. With the whiskey getting direct contact from the ultrasonic transducer and the charred wood, I'd imagine it would help the aging process along?

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:25 pm

AlChemE wrote:Sorry to hear about the accident Badmo! Hope it heals up quick.

So I have an idea in my head that I've been thinking about. I've had very good luck in the past with ultrasonic aging, and I'm having success so far with my two Badmo barrels. Like most of us, I can't wait to tap into my barrels. Since I can't dunk the Badmo barrel into an ultrasonic bath, and it's too much of a pain to pour whiskey out of the barrel, ultrasonicate it, then pour it back into the barrel. What if I were to directly mount an ultrasonic transducer to the back of the barrel? I mean the bain-marie is basically no different than the tank on a regular cleaning machine.

I found this $35 kit: https://www.ebay.com/itm/110V-100W-40KH ... m570.l1313" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I figure I can epoxy the transducer to the back of the barrel, make a little electrical box, and then I can manually run it for 5-10 minutes or so per day. I'm a little worried about pressure building up, the head popping off and temperatures getting warm. I plan on removing the 'bung' from my barrel during treatment, and maybe making a bracket that would put some pressure against the barrel head. With the whiskey getting direct contact from the ultrasonic transducer and the charred wood, I'd imagine it would help the aging process along?
You should try this! And thanks for writing about it here.

If I were going to do this I might solder a stainless nut onto the top of the barrel before inserting the head, drill a very small hole in the can through the nut hole, and then put a stainless bolt in the nut with teflon tape. If you chose a large nut to do this with, this could replace the bung altogether, but a small nut/bolt would be cheaper. Then I would clean the hell out of the can to eliminate the flux, then construct the barrel normally. After filling the barrel you could just loosen the bolt to relieve any pressure that might otherwise build up from the ultrasonic treatment. I think you could close that vent before the cooling part of the cycle.

I have considered trying this but I haven't been able to convince myself that ultrasonic really works, at least through reading. Have you judged this technique to be such an unambiguous success that you're willing to spend the money on a transducer kit? The thing that always stopped me is that I have enough barrels going that I always have something to drink, and I don't really mind the waiting anymore. But hell, I'd sure love to hear about your experiences. Thanks again.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by distiller_dresden » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:28 pm

BadMo - let me tell you - US aging works! I had a 2 months aging on wood rum that was like a bar fight of all the woods I had in it. I did 3 treatments, and then my dad and I tried the samples side by side. It was night and day. Harsh bar fight, and aged was like a symphony man. My dad's a 67 yo man, he is questioning and doubting and cynical, and as soon as he took a sip of the treated sample his face lit up man. Night and day! And that's just from some rum aged 2 months on a bunch of different kinds of wood, I haven't even begun to apply my crazy alchemical experimental mind to what I can bend the technology to with distillate.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:34 pm

distiller_dresden wrote:BadMo - let me tell you - US aging works! I had a 2 months aging on wood rum that was like a bar fight of all the woods I had in it. I did 3 treatments, and then my dad and I tried the samples side by side. It was night and day. Harsh bar fight, and aged was like a symphony man. My dad's a 67 yo man, he is questioning and doubting and cynical, and as soon as he took a sip of the treated sample his face lit up man. Night and day! And that's just from some rum aged 2 months on a bunch of different kinds of wood, I haven't even begun to apply my crazy alchemical experimental mind to what I can bend the technology to with distillate.
Well, damn. That's a pretty compelling endorsement.

Hey, instead of using epoxy to secure the transducer to the barrel, use an intermediary stage such as nuts and bolts so that your transducer can be reused. Solder or epoxy a short bolt to the transducer and a corresponding nut to the back of each barrel. Screw them together for treatments, remove for storage.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by hpby98 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:59 pm

Man. I have 2 bourbon barrels that I’ve taken apart, and tons of Bain-marie’s

Just no time to build

Will have to happen shortly as I want to steam straighten the staves and use for butter rum aging.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Mikey-moo » Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:11 pm

hpby98 wrote:Will have to happen shortly as I want to steam straighten the staves and use for butter rum aging.
I'd like to hear more about this please - maybe start its own thread?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by hpby98 » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:08 am

Mikey-moo wrote:
hpby98 wrote:Will have to happen shortly as I want to steam straighten the staves and use for butter rum aging.
I'd like to hear more about this please - maybe start its own thread?
Will do if I can get it to work

Mostly cut just a bit over size length wise, and I’m guessing the big bow in the middles won’t straighten

Steam and then into a press to straighten

90 degree the sides with a router table

Dowel, cut to round and install

But it’s all theory.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:00 pm

hpby98 wrote:
Mostly cut just a bit over size length wise, and I’m guessing the big bow in the middles won’t straighten

Steam and then into a press to straighten

90 degree the sides with a router table

Dowel, cut to round and install

But it’s all theory.
I’ve done it, both with ex-bourbon and ex-wine barrel staves. Steaming and pressing totally works on all parts of the stave, even the middle. In the end I decided to stop doing it because of the extra work compared to using new wood.

Both barrels sources have their unique annoyances. Bourbon barrels have char that you will have to scrape off, which is a huge mess. Wine barrels will have tartrate crystals, which you should probably remove before steaming to avoid putting the tartrate into the wood, if that’s even possible. :)

In both cases, after flattening the wood you will want to plane them slightly and then re-toast them. After doing so, you will find that the wood is perhaps a little thinner then you might like, but it still worked for me even so.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by twowheels » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:52 pm

AlChemE- why can’t you use an ultrasonic bath?

A technique like this is used for precision cleaning of parts when a solvent or cleaning agent is desired rather than a water bath - the ultrasonic energy is transmitted first to the water bath, then to a glass or metal beaker, then to the cleaning fluid and the item to be cleaned inside the beaker. That way you don’t have to use gallons of solvent (dangerous) or soap (expensive) for every item cleaned. Seems like this idea would work for the Bain Marie barrel pretty well as long as the pressure increase is well understood.

A question: is US aging primarily a way to extract wood flavors more quickly or does it accelerate flavor development in the spirit itself? Or both?

Would this affect your decision to sonicate the barrel upright vs. on its side?



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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by AlChemE » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:42 am

Two wheels - good question. I originally thought about that. At my work we have a dozen or so industrial US cleaners which got me thinking. I went to price out a bath that would fit a barrel or the contents of a 6 qt barrel.....then I saw the price! WOW! They are very expensive once you get larger than a couple quarts. I can get a kit with the same electronics for 10% of the price.

I could build a bath and dunk the barrel in it. But my understanding is that sound energy is lost between each interface/transition. Similar concept as a loudspeaker being muffled a few rooms away. Also, if I stood the barrel upright there would be no liquid contacting the barrel head (I never fill 100% and my angels share only adds more air to the barrel). I'd think there would be some interesting extraction/reactions/ etc where the whiskey meets the wood during US treatment.

Another benefit is that I can attach a stud to the back of each barrel, just like Badmo suggested. All I have to do is screw on the transducer, hit GO, then unscrew it and attach to the next barrel, then hit GO again. No mess, no contamination between batches, no cleanup. It's all self contained.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by OtisT » Mon Jul 30, 2018 5:34 pm

Hey Badmo, I finished my new dowling jig for barrel heads. I have a biscuit cutter but wanted to stay away from the plywood biscuits (glue) in my heads.

I started with some really small 1/8” birch dowels and while they worked for alignment, they did not give me any traction so getting the heads to stay together while circle cutting and sanding was trickier than I wanted to deal with. I was pretty much relying on just the wax and constant manual pressure to hold them together.

I made this new 1/4” dowl jig which has worked nicely on the first few heads I have made with it so far. Going with 1/4” hole allows me to use those birch dowels that are slightly oversized that you can buy at the hardware store, designed to grip tightly in a 1/4 hole. That, and I can also use metal drill guides that ensure the holes are straight.
Dowling jig for barrel heads
Dowling jig for barrel heads
I found a great clamp by Bessey that auto adjusts to varying thicknesses, so any variations in the wood does not require any adjustment to hold it really steady.

After I put this together and measured the tolerances, I found one side was slightly higher that the other. A few strips of tape brings the wood surfaces into alignment. Now that it’s tested out I’m gonna mount all this on a larger board for stability and slap a ruler on top for manual centering of the board.
Tape on one side for alignment
Tape on one side for alignment
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Desolus » Tue Jul 31, 2018 4:53 am

der wo wrote:For a copy of Jim Beam you could dip the whole lid in glue :lol:

And there are wonderful smelling glues, which would work even on the stainless pot. :sick:
LMAO! Very true though, I cant even look at that swill.

But wow, there are so very clever ideas in this thread, I am going to have to try a variation on this.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by OtisT » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:00 am

I finally finished all my jigs and marked up templates for making three sizes of badmo style barrels. Thanks badmo, for all the encouragement along the way.
Finished two (2) gallon and one (1) gallon barrels
Finished two (2) gallon and one (1) gallon barrels
I just threw these two together today, a one gallon and a two gallon barrel, both Med Toast. (The 1.5 gallon size barrel is not shown.)

I want to make one more size but I have not yet found the correct shaped SS pan yet. Looking for something in the 8 qt volume range but with a larger hole, relative to its depth. Something that will give me a larger surface area to volume ratio, for somewhat more aggressive aging.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Jimy Dee » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:13 am

Badmo, what an outstanding idea, thread and product. To assist in developing your cottage industry, if there are punters from different parts of the world that have a good supply of suitable SS containers, why not get them to send one of the containers to u which can act as template for the timber heads, then your customers can order a number of tailer made heads and fit them themselves. Your utube vids are there as a guide to fitting and sealing them. Just an idea. I appreciate you produce a quality product but this might assist in making your product more affordable for those of us outside of the States and still allow you make your profit. Just an idea. Jimy Dee

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by The Baker » Sat Aug 11, 2018 9:54 pm

I really want some of those heads; if it is a common size (one of the larger ones) I will be able to order the canisters to suit.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by DeepSouth » Wed Aug 15, 2018 7:52 am

I was reading the American Distilling Institute magazine and came across an ad for a company selling a commercial version of the Badmo barrels. Stainless steel drums with removable clamp-on wooden heads. Inspired by this thread, no doubt.

Here is the website of the company. Information is limited on the site and it appears they market more to winemakers than distillers. Can't tell if they offer any charred versions but the joinery on the wooden heads is interesting.

http://vitacask.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Rich Grain Distilling Co., DSP-MS-20003
http://www.richdistilling.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
https://www.facebook.com/richgraindistillingco/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by cede » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:03 am

It's always just a matter of time that the idea is copied :)

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Irishgnome » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:00 am

AlChemE wrote:Sorry to hear about the accident Badmo! Hope it heals up quick.

So I have an idea in my head that I've been thinking about. I've had very good luck in the past with ultrasonic aging, and I'm having success so far with my two Badmo barrels. Like most of us, I can't wait to tap into my barrels. Since I can't dunk the Badmo barrel into an ultrasonic bath, and it's too much of a pain to pour whiskey out of the barrel, ultrasonicate it, then pour it back into the barrel. What if I were to directly mount an ultrasonic transducer to the back of the barrel? I mean the bain-marie is basically no different than the tank on a regular cleaning machine.

I found this $35 kit: https://www.ebay.com/itm/110V-100W-40KH ... m570.l1313" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I figure I can epoxy the transducer to the back of the barrel, make a little electrical box, and then I can manually run it for 5-10 minutes or so per day. I'm a little worried about pressure building up, the head popping off and temperatures getting warm. I plan on removing the 'bung' from my barrel during treatment, and maybe making a bracket that would put some pressure against the barrel head. With the whiskey getting direct contact from the ultrasonic transducer and the charred wood, I'd imagine it would help the aging process along?
AlChemE,

Have you tried this yet? Has anyone else?
Looking to order some for my setup, just don’t want to toss $ down the drain if this is a waste of time.

Cheers!
- Irish
Candy is dandy but liquor is quicker. - Ogden Nash
"if at first you don't succeed, try try try again"

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