The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Treatment and handling of your distillate.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by kiwi Bruce » Wed Feb 24, 2016 6:24 pm

nzjordy wrote: stainless steel buckets, i thought maybe i could cut the bottom off a 12L one
The 12 L is 3.1 US gal I don't think you have to over think this one mate. Even if the slop of the of the side walls on a bucket is greater than a bran-marie, the larger diameter will give you more than enough exposure to the oak. Your only problem will be making it stay in place, and we've discussed some of the options here on making that happen. Kiwi
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Thu Feb 25, 2016 10:33 am

I'm posting this to follow up on the BBOB that had some gaps between staves caused by the sniping planer. It took longer to swell and seal than the one that did not have that problem, but it sealed perfectly two or three days after filling with water. The barrel is full of water in this picture. Interestingly, you can see where the edge is not perfectly round, yet between the compression of hammering the head into the insert and the swelling of the wood, the seal works. Also, the gaps between staves are open on the face of the barrel head, so the seal must have occurred somewhere in the middle of the 1"-thick barrel head.
Fully-sealed BBOB 4
Fully-sealed BBOB 4

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:09 pm

LOSS RATE

In BBOB #3, the weight of the contents (total weight - wet tare) went from 2215g to 2203.5g in 13 days. Wolfram says this is a loss rate of 0.0434% per day. If I'm doing the math right (doubtful!) this looks like an annualized loss of 15%. But these were the first data points I could get. This includes the loss of the wet face of the wood and initial soaking and stabilization of the wood. So when I sample the loss in month 4, for example, it may show a smaller loss rate. We will see.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by gflower1 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:12 pm

Did you make the barrel? I was looking at dome coopering videos last night. Looks tough but might be a fun project when I can get back to my workshop...

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:02 pm

gflower1 wrote:Did you make the barrel? I was looking at dome coopering videos last night. Looks tough but might be a fun project when I can get back to my workshop...
Not sure what to do with this question. This whole thread is about the barrels I am making. :)

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by gflower1 » Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:11 am

Badmotivator wrote:
gflower1 wrote:Did you make the barrel? I was looking at dome coopering videos last night. Looks tough but might be a fun project when I can get back to my workshop...
Not sure what to do with this question. This whole thread is about the barrels I am making. :)
Haha sorry. That was a bit late for me last night... Already a few fingers in! Lol
Ill go back through and actually read it today.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Hillbilly Popstar » Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:30 am

Badmotivator wrote:LOSS RATE

In BBOB #3, the weight of the contents (total weight - wet tare) went from 2215g to 2203.5g in 13 days. Wolfram says this is a loss rate of 0.0434% per day. If I'm doing the math right (doubtful!) this looks like an annualized loss of 15%. But these were the first data points I could get. This includes the loss of the wet face of the wood and initial soaking and stabilization of the wood. So when I sample the loss in month 4, for example, it may show a smaller loss rate. We will see.
What's a normal loss rate?
"Making likker with a hydrometer and thermometer is like measuring the length of a 2x4 with a clock"

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Hillbilly Popstar » Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:35 am

And why has no one called these BMBMs yet. Or BMx2, double BM, BMBMBM (Badmotivator Bain Marie Barrel Maker), double or triple BiMs, BiMMers, or any other catch phrase involving multiple use the letters B&M?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by MichiganCornhusker » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:08 am

I'ma call mine BadMo Barrels. Got a 6-pack of bain maires ordered up!
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:56 am

Hillbilly Popstar wrote: What's a normal loss rate?
According to Harlen Wheately, Master Distiller at Buffalo Trace, the angel's share is 10 percent for the first year (because whiskey is absorbing into the wood of barrel as well as evaporating), then 4 percent for the next 8 years after that, then around 3 percent per year after that.


Source: http://www.alcademics.com/2014/01/how-m ... rrel-.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Hillbilly Popstar » Fri Mar 04, 2016 7:03 am

When I get around to building mine I'll call them BBMBMBMM.

Big Bad Motivator Bain Marie Barrel Making Method

Say that 5 times drunk!
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by LBHD » Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:00 am

Badmotivator wrote:Surface Area to Volume Ratios

My research showed that large oak barrels have an internal SA/V of between 50 and 74 sqin/gal. Interestingly, as time goes on and the spirit is given to the angels, the SA/V ratio changes fast:
Screen Shot 2016-02-10 at 10.20.18 AM.jpg
But in a BBOB, the SA/V ratio does not change over time.

I have calculated my SA/V ratios at 51 for my 8qt BBOB and 43 for my 6qt BBOB. You can adjust this by setting the barrel head slightly deeper into the insert. I am about to make a couple more out of 4qt bain marie inserts, which would have a SA/V ratio of about 36 given the dimensions of the inserts. This is pretty low, so the spirit's going to have to sit there for a while. :)

Cheers, everyone. I'd be happy to help out if you have any questions, and I would certainly appreciate advice on how to make them more effective, cheaper, more easily constructed, etc.

Interestingly enough (assuming a perfect cyclinder), because the surface area of the circle and the cylinder volume are related: to get SA/Vol ratio correct, you can use ANY size radius, but the height (front to back) needs to be ~ 4.5 inches for a SA/V of ~50 sq in/gallon.

If you go 4 inches height, you get 57 sqin/gal

3 inches height, 77 sqin/gal (probably too much?)

Changing the RADIUS will determine how much fluid you get to age at one time and how many pieces of oak you need to stick together..

So look at your BM stats when purchasing and subtract an inch or so for stave thickness, and try and find a ss vessel that is 5-5.5 inches tall.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:44 pm

Hillbilly Popstar wrote:And why has no one called these BMBMs yet. Or BMx2, double BM, BMBMBM (Badmotivator Bain Marie Barrel Maker), double or triple BiMs, BiMMers, or any other catch phrase involving multiple use the letters B&M?
you gotta believe I tried really hard to come up with a memorable acronym. BB-SOB (Badmotivator's Barrel-Stainless, Oak, Bainmarie) BOSSA (Badmotivator's Oak and Stainless Steel Ager) SOAKIT (Stainless and Oak Aging Keg with Installed Tap)

Needless to say, I'm still open to suggestions. My naming ideas suck. :)

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Hillbilly Popstar » Fri Mar 04, 2016 2:57 pm

Mine twernt so good either.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Fri Mar 04, 2016 5:41 pm

Got BBOB #4 filled today with "All Corn". I wanted to show how "wiggle board", the stuff you use to attach corrugated fiberglass panels to framing, can be employed to make a quick, easy, and cheap BBOB rack on a shelf:
BBOB rack
BBOB rack

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Oldvine Zin » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:52 pm

Looking good!! I hope to find the time this weekend to make some oak circles for my BMBM's

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:10 pm

Oldvine Zin wrote:BMBM's
God dammit. See? I need help!

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond » Sat Mar 05, 2016 5:52 am

This. This is the name.
MichiganCornhusker wrote:I'ma call mine BadMo Barrels.
Ever see pulp fiction? "Which wallet is yours?"

"The one that says Bad MO F%×&*er!"
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You reached for the secret too soon, you cried for the moon.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:43 pm

I'm tryin' to be the shepherd.

Alright. Call them whatever you like, no grief from me. And watch out for the tyranny of evil men.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Pesty » Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:28 am

I've been following this post and working on my own build for a stock of Rum i'm building up.

I find this post made in another thread to go perfect with this thread due to the smaller barrel size and this guy wrote a master thesis on the use of smaller barrels in the aging process, this guy used loads of science and it's a must read.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =4&t=60514

Direct link to the paper..

http://etd.lib.msu.edu/islandora/object ... mz0P356BMg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Mon Mar 07, 2016 4:10 pm

Pesty wrote:I've been following this post and working on my own build for a stock of Rum i'm building up.
Sweet! We'd love to see what you come up with and/or problems you encounter.
Pesty wrote: I find this post made in another thread to go perfect with this thread due to the smaller barrel size ...
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =4&t=60514
I found that paper fascinating, but I'm not sure that the small barrel data applies. My best guess is that (with a few small caveats) the spirit in a <cough> Badmo Barrel <choke> ages as if it's in a large barrel.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by WIski » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:28 pm

Hey Badmotivator, how are those SS Oak Barrels doing?????

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Fri Mar 18, 2016 5:02 pm

WIski wrote:Hey Badmotivator, how are those SS Oak Barrels doing?????
I love them, for both their function and their looks, and I recommend them. I'm looking forward to seeing other folks' interpretation/implementation of the idea

The only thing I can't claim yet is that they are suitable for long-term aging (1-10 years, perhaps) and that they behave in the same way a full-sized barrel does.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:32 pm

LOSS RATE

One thing I'm still trying to figure out is the annualized loss rate. Assuming my kitchen scale is giving me accurate readings, it looks like the two barrels I have weight data on are on track to lose 17%-20% in the first year. This is based on the first month of data in one barrel and the first half month in another. This seems high, but my hair's not on fire. There is absolutely no sign of leakage on these two barrels, so it seems as though the loss is entirely through the wood.

I'm thinking about my stave thickness. I'm afraid that the 1" boards I buy are a little too thin. By the time I toast them (shrinkage!) and plane them (shrinkage!) they end up like 2 cm thick or slightly smaller. From my reading this is the thinnest any cooper will go, and only if they want to maximize oxygen access to the liquid.
Château tradition commonly uses staves with a thickness of between 20mm and 22mm; while staves in standard export barrels are between 25mm and 27mm thick. The thinner walls offer a greater amount of oxygen transmission, which can be preferable in terms of desired wine style. (http://www.winesandvines.com/template.c ... tent=70974" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)
I also happened upon Buffalo Trace's experiment with thinner staves, from 1.9 cm to 2.5 cm.
This now dead to the world bourbon, noted the distillery, has been bottled with a label clearly stating “FAILED EXPERIMENT” and archived at Buffalo Trace for future research. It joins other disappointments such as some small 5, 10 and 15 gallon barrels; an experimental whiskey using barley; experiments with varying barrel stave thickness, ranging from ¾ inch to one inch thickness; experimental barrels with rough saw joints, and a whiskey experiment using sour wood, amongst others. (http://thewhiskeywash.com/2015/07/20/bu ... xperiment/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)
Anyway, while I work my way through my small pile of seasoned 1" oak I will be thinking about how I can get a hold of some thicker stock to work with. I will also be minimizing the planing I do on the barrelhead, which is purely cosmetic anyway, in favor of retaining as much thickness as I can.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by der wo » Sat Mar 19, 2016 1:56 am

Badmotivator wrote:to lose 17%-20% in the first year.
So one year aging in such a barrel is a good plan I think. What do you think?

Do you have experience in "normal" stick aging? So can you compare the results?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:35 am

der wo wrote: So one year aging in such a barrel is a good plan I think. What do you think?

Do you have experience in "normal" stick aging? So can you compare the results?
If the loss rate remains high, then I can't keep the spirit in the barrel for very many years. If the loss rate goes down then I plan on going as long as I can stand. My consumption is far lower than my production, so I can reasonably hope to age for long years.

I've just had another thought about the loss rate: the humidity may be a lot lower in my closet than in a large barrel house. Time for more research! (When I was in school I thought that homework was a boring chore. It's ironic that as an adult I delight in these kinds of assignments. :) )

I can't compare these barrels to sticks-in-jars yet. I hope that others will consider beginning such an experiment, and I may as well.

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The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator » Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:00 pm

The humidity in my closet is 50%. This is too low, and it's not likely to change much throughout the year. When it is humid outside, it is also cold, so the house heat lowers the relative humidity.

If I want to come close to the average relative humidity of Kentucky, say, it looks like I need to range from the mid 50s to the mid-80s.

(https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/ ... annual.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)

(http://www.shorstmeyer.com/wxfaqs/humidity/rh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by gr8brewer » Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:14 pm

Badmotivator wrote:The humidity in my closet is 50%. This is too low, and it's not likely to change much throughout the year. When it is humid outside, it is also cold, so the house heat lowers the relative humidity.

If I want to come close to the average relative humidity of Kentucky, say, it looks like I need to range from the mid 50s to the mid-80s.

(https://www.currentresults.com/Weather/ ... annual.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)

(http://www.shorstmeyer.com/wxfaqs/humidity/rh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow)
Perhaps you can humidify your closet. Do you like cigars? Or a chest to put your barrel's in propylene glycol holds a space at 70%

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by der wo » Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:20 pm

Now you exaggerate your science IMO, badmotivator.
The humidity affects the water loss, that's all, or maybe almost all. This water you will give back when you dilute to drinking strength.
The loss of ethanol and the other volatile substance is the important thing. And this is not (or maybe almost not) influenced by humidity. Only by temperature and of course the construction of your barrel (wood thickness and surface per volume for example). And perhaps minor things like rotation of the barrel and air movement.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by kiwi Bruce » Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:39 pm

I disagree... the temperature and humidity are measured in "Dew Point". As either one goes up or down, so does the dew point. The dew point is a measure of how much vapor (water and other liquids ie ethanol) the air is able to hold. The Island scotch distilleries have there barrel warehouses close to the sea to moderate drastic fluctuations in the dew point and reduce the cask loss to evaporation, which would happen more rapidly in a warmer, dryer climate. If your afraid that your Bain-Maries are going to suffer from being too warm or dry, put a humidifier in with them and possibly a small AC unit....Kiwi
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