Treating a barrel while aging

Treatment and handling of your distillate.

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neil
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Treating a barrel while aging

Post by neil »

Right now I’m barrel aging a brandy until fully developed. But I can’t find that one topic that explains what the best way is to treat a brandy filled barrel. Do I have to moisture it ones in a while? And if so, at what interval etc etc?
Can anyone point out that topic or tell me what the best way is to treat a full barrel?

It’s placed in a semi conditioned barn where the temperatures change with the seasons but not as much as the outside temperature. It also isn’t windy or damp like an open shed. Hope that’s okay.

I was also wondering if I have to refill the angels share until the barrel is full again, or just leave the barrel sitting with a headspace (with possibly drying out the top of the barrel).

I'm talking about a 'small' 5 gallon barrel btw.
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Badmotivator
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Re: Treating a barrel while aging

Post by Badmotivator »

I think you're doing all right.

I believe brandy producers are not in the habit of keeping the barrel topped up. The headspace (ullage) is considered an important part of maturation. When you are maturing wine, you can't have any headspace because of the risk of oxidizing the wine. But brandy is different; it wants to be oxidized. If, however, you have some remainder of raw spirit don't hesitate to put that in the barrel as soon as space becomes available for it.

One thing you can do is test it every few months. If it is too spicy, you can put it in a cooler, more damp environment. If it is too mellow and needs some spice, you can put it in a slightly warmer, dryer place.

I had a large hobby barrel with brandy in it for a year plus, and it almost didn't change at all, and I realized much later that my barrel had been lacquered, which prevented maturation. Make sure your barrel has not been lacquered.

I hope others will come along and add more advice. I hope that helps.
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Re: Treating a barrel while aging

Post by neil »

Thanks for the advice so far!

The barrel is hand crafted by an experienced barrel maker so I will assume there’s only (French)oak wood in it. Moreover I always see the Scottish whisky distillers painting the barrel heads to write on it. Wouldn’t it give the same problems?

I recently checked up on the barrel and I could see there was an inch of headspace already. On the shelf I also have half a gallon of spare original raw spirit left. If I topped the barrel up again, what advantage could I get from this rather then only acquiring more brandy in the end? Or is oxidizing the brandy by leaving the headspace as it is more desirable?

And in case of too spiciness or too mellowness the only option that I have is putting the barrel closer to the barn door. The other option is to put it outside under a corrugated sheet covered space. But there is a possibility that the barrel will get wet after longer periods of rain.
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Re: Treating a barrel while aging

Post by neil »

In the last few days we had a lot of nice sunshiny weather. The barn is heating up quite fast this week. What is the risk of overoaking with such a small barrel?
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Re: Treating a barrel while aging

Post by still_stirrin »

neil wrote:In the last few days we had a lot of nice sunshiny weather. The barn is heating up quite fast this week. What is the risk of overoaking with such a small barrel?
In Tennessee, the rack houses are steel sided sheds. In the summer, the temperature rises to 95*F ambient, so that on the top floor of the rack house, the temperature can reach 105-110*F. The temperature swing between hot and cold is a major part of the aging cycle. Likewise, the humidity in the summer rises as well (hot air holds moisture better). Relative humidity likewise affects the share the angels take. So, the conditions are all part of the aging process.

Over oaking.....if you're less than a year or 2, you're probably fine. If in doubt, pull a sample periodically. It's a great way to learn how the process progresses. Plus, you can follow "your baby's coming of age".
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Re: Treating a barrel while aging

Post by neil »

Thanks for the quick reply ss. My main concern was of it being only a 5 gallon barrel. It is ten times smaller then the original bourbon barrel. I assumed that in this case the aging process would also go ten times as fast.
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Re: Treating a barrel while aging

Post by still_stirrin »

neil wrote:My main concern was of it being only a 5 gallon barrel. It is ten times smaller then the original bourbon barrel. I assumed that in this case the aging process would also go ten times as fast.
Probably not 10 times as fast. But, here's a good read (to download and keep a copy of too): https://oakbarrelsltd.com/files/The%20A ... 20More.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

And for a little longer read (and data to support it), here's another suggested read: http://bourbonr.com/blog/wp-content/upl ... VOLUME.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Cheers.
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Re: Treating a barrel while aging

Post by GrassHopper »

For what it's worth, I filled a 5 gal barrel in Aug 2016 with Hook Rum and couldn't keep my hands off it. I slowly over the past 7 months used up most of it and finally emptied the remaining gallon of it just a couple weeks ago to make room for some Panela rum. It is now full again and hopefully, I can let it sit for a while. It sat for months partially full. I would just roll it once in a while to keep it wet on top and it seemed to have no issues drying out. The new rum filled it to the top and it showed no sign of any leaks. I filled another barrel a couple days ago and now wish I had another barrel. Dang things cost too much. Guess I'll just have to oak on glass for my next batch. I know you all must feel real sorry for me now.
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Re: Treating a barrel while aging

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neil
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Re: Treating a barrel while aging

Post by neil »

still_stirrin wrote:
neil wrote:My main concern was of it being only a 5 gallon barrel. It is ten times smaller then the original bourbon barrel. I assumed that in this case the aging process would also go ten times as fast.
Probably not 10 times as fast. But, here's a good read (to download and keep a copy of too): https://oakbarrelsltd.com/files/The%20A ... 20More.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

And for a little longer read (and data to support it), here's another suggested read: http://bourbonr.com/blog/wp-content/upl ... VOLUME.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Cheers.
ss
Thanks for the read. The only thing I couldn't find out is why you should top a small sized barrel up. I thought that the headspace was responsible for the desired level of oxidation and taste.
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Re: Treating a barrel while aging

Post by GrassHopper »

neil wrote: Thanks for the read. The only thing I couldn't find out is why you should top a small sized barrel up. I thought that the headspace was responsible for the desired level of oxidation and taste.
Mainly it is just to keep your barrel from drying out at the empty area. If you wanna turn your barrel on a regular basis to keep it wet, then keeping a head space is not an issue. A barrel breathes naturally, therefore you will get a headspace in due time. Some of us choose to keep the barrel full so we don't have to turn it all the time. That's my opinion.....others may chime in.
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still_stirrin
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Re: Treating a barrel while aging

Post by still_stirrin »

Well put GrassHopper.

Neil, a full barrel is a "good thing", especially when it comes time to empty it. But, topping it up regularly also allows you an opportunity to sample it as well...so you can understand better the "rate of maturity" within the cask. yummmmmm.....
ss

edited to add: the advantage for larger barrels is the ratio of volume to surface area is greater...it makes it require more time to properly oak the spirit, but it also provides a more "graceful" angel's takeaway.
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Re: Treating a barrel while aging

Post by still_stirrin »

Here's a point of reference for you new cask users: I pulled the spirit out of my 5 liter (twice used) cask yesterday and it proofed at 129 proof. I got roughly 4 liters out. What I put into the cask 7 weeks ago was about 4-3/4 liters of 109 proof late hearts (COB).

The cask has been stored in my basement furnace room, a small bathroom-sized room where the water heater and furnace are (both natural gas powered). So, in the short 2 months in the cask, the spirit went up in proof while losing around 20% volume. Also, the basement humidity has been high these past few months, contributing to the increase in proof rather than loss of proof.
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Re: Treating a barrel while aging

Post by cuginosgrizzo »

still_stirrin wrote: Also, the basement humidity has been high these past few months, contributing to the increase in proof rather than loss of proof.
I would say rather the opposite. If humidity is high, then the spirit evaporates less water and the proof drops, if the humidity is low, the spirit evaporates more water, and the proof rises. The furnace room is a very dry environment, that's why your proof went up.
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Re: Treating a barrel while aging

Post by der wo »

cuginosgrizzo wrote:
still_stirrin wrote: Also, the basement humidity has been high these past few months, contributing to the increase in proof rather than loss of proof.
I would say rather the opposite. If humidity is high, then the spirit evaporates less water and the proof drops, if the humidity is low, the spirit evaporates more water, and the proof rises. The furnace room is a very dry environment, that's why your proof went up.
:thumbup:
I am looking forward to his answer. :lol:
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Re: Treating a barrel while aging

Post by Still Life »

Me too. :think:
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Re: Treating a barrel while aging

Post by still_stirrin »

Good catch.

This is from the "Angel's Share" document (https://oakbarrelsltd.com/files/The%20A ... 20More.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow):
In a nutshell ...
• Low Humidity – primarily water lost resulting in higher alcohol content - Dry air and higher temperatures will result In more water being lost (alcohol content goes up)
• High Humidity – primarily alcohol lost resulting in losing the alcoholic strength of the product. When stored at 60% relative humidity or higher – primarily alcohol loss - Humid atmospheres with moderate temperatures will lead to more alcohol than water evaporating.
But what I've experienced is the opposite, perhaps by the air's ability to "hold" water. Higher humidity has given me more shrinkage but an increase in proof (in the small 5 liter cask, at least). Keeping the cask in the warm (dry) garage resulted in more alcohol loss and a reduction in proof. So, the warm, moist basement environment (furnace room) has been more effective for me.

Incidently, in the summer when the air conditioner runs (in place of the furnace), I also get a reduction in proof when the casks are stored in the furnace room. It is cool (and moist) in the room during that season. Again, warm air holds more moisture than cool air, so the shrinkage is more water than alcohol in the winter and more alcohol than water in the summer months.

I don't know how to explain it, but that's what I've experienced even though it is counter to what the pdf document says to expect. So, as they say, YMMV.
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Re: Treating a barrel while aging

Post by der wo »

It's always much more fun to see a member like you spinning with explanations than a new member. :lol:

The simplest explanation is, that the weather in your "basement furnace room, a small bathroom-sized room where the water heater and furnace are (both natural gas powered)" is by far not as wet as the weather on a scottish island. But this explanation doesn't explain the other of your experiences (the dry garage).

Perhaps it clears up considering that there are two factors, evaporation and diffusion. For diffusion the humidity of the air is not important, but perhaps how tight the barrel is swelled. In a garage with much air movement the outside of the barrel will be always dry.
I don't know. It's only what comes in my mind when I read your post. It stays complicated. :thumbup:
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Re: Treating a barrel while aging

Post by ShineRunner »

My experience has been similar to SS's. I live in Colorado where it is very dry year round. I have aged UJ in a 5 gallon barrel, which I regularly would rotate to keep from drying out. I left it in there for about 9 months and found that the proof had increased a small amount. Not sure of the amount, but I remember being curious about that..

When I age in jars, I store them in gallon or half gallon jars with the lids loosely resting on top. I occasionally take them down and let them air out for a few minutes to a few hours. I have found that I always end up losing proof in the jars. The last batch went in at 120 and came out at about 100.

I'm not sure of why the results are different. They're in the same closet and exposed to the same temperature and humidity. Perhaps the diffusion theory proposed by der wo explains the difference in jars vs barrel?

SR
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Re: Treating a barrel while aging

Post by der wo »

ShineRunner wrote:I'm not sure of why the results are different. They're in the same closet and exposed to the same temperature and humidity. Perhaps the diffusion theory proposed by der wo explains the difference in jars vs barrel?
For me it sounds logical. Water molecules are smaller than ethanol molecules. But perhaps this logic is also too simple like the evaporation boiling point logic.
I always age with sticks and open lid. Pure evaporation, no diffusion. Never had a higher proof after aging.
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Re: Treating a barrel while aging

Post by still_stirrin »

der wo wrote:...Perhaps it clears up considering that there are two factors, evaporation and diffusion. For diffusion the humidity of the air is not important, but perhaps how tight the barrel is swelled. In a garage with much air movement the outside of the barrel will be always dry...
This may be the key. The (twice used) cask outer surface does feel "soft and smooth", as if it is waxed, which of course it is not. The surface is just "glazed" by the chemicals that breath through the wood, or have breathed through with the multiple usages. That certainly would affect the diffusion properties of the wood to wick molecules through, especially the larger alcohol molecules (than water).

Of note, I have observed that with multiple uses, the cask requires longer aging times to season the spirits, especially with a heavier dose of tails. Heads work through quickly, but the aging of the tails takes longer times. I guess this is to be expected, however, due to the volatility of the constituents.

But to readdress the temperature, humidity, and environment effects on the cask, even when the cask was new (1st use), I experienced the same behavior with the proof increasing in the warm, moist environment while the proof decreased when the air conditioner was in service.

One thing, the total shrinkage (water and alcohol) was greater in the winter when the furnace was in service. Just that more water than alcohol evaporated. In the summer, the total shrinkage was less than during the winter, probably because of the cool, moist utility room that the cask was in.
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