Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Treatment and handling of your distillate.

Moderator: Site Moderator

wfw52
Bootlegger
Posts: 117
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2012 4:20 pm

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by wfw52 »

thanks winger, I got a good laugh at your aproach to common sence ! :D
gobucks85
Novice
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2013 7:05 pm

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by gobucks85 »

I have lot of Oak fire wood can I use chips from.that
Smokey52
Novice
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:46 pm

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by Smokey52 »

I work in construction doing site work and it just dawned on me that the grade stakes we use are white oak. It is used because its resistant to rotting. They're generally 1" x 1 "x 48" and come in bundles of 25 stakes. I think we pay $20-25 for a bundle. We get ours from construction supply companies where you need an account, but I've also seen them at some hardware stores. I wouldn't expect to find them at someplace like Lowe's though, more like mom and pop stores. You've gotta look them over before buying though, because they're also sometimes sold in red oak and maple.

I'm still in my research phase, so I'm a ways off from trying this. But If you can get your hands on these, I don't see why they wouldn't work.
highpower
Novice
Posts: 28
Joined: Wed Jun 16, 2010 10:34 am
Location: SE Asia

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by highpower »

Food for thought… whiskey barrels are only charred on the inside. The entire inside I think. When the flame has the entire inside surface aglow, steam is used to quench the coals. That produces activated carbon, not regular charring.
So, if this is true…?
The liquid inside the barrel never gets to tuch the toasted oak without going in and out of activated carbon.
Am I totally off on this or what?
No matter how much you wash it, it's still an A-hole.
rickw
Novice
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:02 am

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by rickw »

Can someone explain how oak "powder" is used in place of chips. I saw a rum receipe that called for 1/2 to 1 table spoon of oak in the bottle to help it mature. I sure they didn't mean chips
Thanks
Rick
frozenthunderbolt
Distiller
Posts: 1417
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:01 am
Location: North island of New Zealand

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by frozenthunderbolt »

rickw wrote:Can someone explain how oak "powder" is used in place of chips. I saw a rum receipe that called for 1/2 to 1 table spoon of oak in the bottle to help it mature. I sure they didn't mean chips
Thanks
Rick
It isn't.

Wine makers sometimes use it to impart an oaky-tannin flavour to red wine. It is a poor substitute for toasted and charred staves even for this however.
Where has all the rum gone? . . .

Every new member should read this before doing anything else:
sgtjjmayle
Novice
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:50 am
Location: Midwest USA

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by sgtjjmayle »

Wass reading up on everything here and it seems like getting oak from a reputable source is obviously important if you aren't cutting the tree down yourself. Just did a search the internet for rough cut oak planks and came up with this site.

http://www.woodworkerssource.com/sample ... White.html

They sell sample planks so you can test stains and varnish on, but they ship to you straight from the warehouse/lumberyard. These sample pieces seem like they are big enough to cut up into quite a few strips so you can stretch that $8 (US) a good ways if you just toast them yourself!

Just sharing what I found! If anyone has feedback on this idea let me know because this seems like something I might order here soon. A lot of our oaks in this region are getting an "oak bore" that is killing them off quickly. We just lost all of our ash trees over the last 8 years from the "ash bore". Made it illegal to even move ash fire wood across county lines fearing the spread of it.
jeremy38541
Novice
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:54 am

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by jeremy38541 »

I'm having an awful lot of trouble finding some white oak sticks for sale in Canada. Most places I find don't ship to Canada and those that do cost an insane amount for shipping. Any ideas?

The link posted just above me does ship to Canada but I haven't heard any opinions on it yet.
http://www.woodworkerssource.com/samples-whiteoak.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Also there's a guy on Ebay that I have seen linked to before. I didn't see any opinions on that though either.
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/200702272501?ssP ... 165wt_1397" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks.
Winger
Novice
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 6:49 pm
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by Winger »

You could also check http://www.homedepot.ca/product/red-oak ... eet/940975" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
wineboxwilly
Novice
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:56 am

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by wineboxwilly »

I am sipping on some whisk now, and toasting some 3/8x1x4 pieces of white oak in the oven right now. I am toasting 36 pieces at 200c I took 12 out after an hour, 12 out after 2 hours and the final 12 will be in there for the full 3 hours. My plan is to make 12 one litre jars ranging from 40, 45 and 50% each with a different baked oak in it. Should give me 12 different tastes to sample.
wineboxwilly
Novice
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2013 10:56 am

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by wineboxwilly »

I am not claiming to be an expert after all these years of store bought whisk. But after two weeks of ujsm on oak sticks. I am set for life. I took a pice of 1x4 and cut it into 3/8 strips. I put 36 sticks in the oven at 400 and pulled 12 out ever hour. Here is the key. Take one litre mason jars and fill them with some 125 proof and drop 2 sticks in. I like the 1 hour and the 3 hour stick blend the best. ( make sure you snap the sticks in half or they might expand and break your jar open..... dont ask.) The different flavor blends you get from the blend of cook times real makes it magical. Dont be afraid to try new stuff, this hobby is amazing for that. I can express how thankful I am for the people on this forum and the wealth of knowledge and how willing people are to share. It makes it that much more fun.
ELT
Novice
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:32 pm

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by ELT »

I read this entire thread and here is what I intend to try:

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/use-oak-cubes.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

A mix of the French and American of different toasts into 120 proof much like American Bourbon whiskey is treated. 6-8 weeks with the cubes in.

Thoughts?
Woodpile
Bootlegger
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:40 pm

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by Woodpile »

wineboxwilly wrote:I am not claiming to be an expert after all these years of store bought whisk. But after two weeks of ujsm on oak sticks. I am set for life. I took a pice of 1x4 and cut it into 3/8 strips. I put 36 sticks in the oven at 400 and pulled 12 out ever hour. Here is the key. Take one litre mason jars and fill them with some 125 proof and drop 2 sticks in. I like the 1 hour and the 3 hour stick blend the best. ( make sure you snap the sticks in half or they might expand and break your jar open..... dont ask.) The different flavor blends you get from the blend of cook times real makes it magical. Dont be afraid to try new stuff, this hobby is amazing for that. I can express how thankful I am for the people on this forum and the wealth of knowledge and how willing people are to share. It makes it that much more fun.
You did not wrap them in foil?
User avatar
chad2011
Novice
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:36 pm

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by chad2011 »

I am thinking of trying red oak in 4" lengths , these are taken straight from the tree. The logs have been cut for a year. How long should I let them dry? Can I get by without toasting , if not how do I go about toasting my strips???
Woodpile
Bootlegger
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:40 pm

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by Woodpile »

I am certainly not an expert, but I understand red oak is not like white oak at all. The grain structure and chemicals are not suitable for aging. I am still trying to find out if live oak (type of white oak) is close enough to be useful.

I also don't think you should avoid toasting- it provides flavor and sweetness.
User avatar
chad2011
Novice
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Jan 12, 2014 11:36 pm

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by chad2011 »

I do know that the "live" oak is in the same genus or family as the white oak. It is a southern tree that used to be used a lot in ship building. It is very dense and I would guess it to be a good wood. I do not know of the different flavors it could possibly have.
User avatar
humbledore
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 898
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:12 pm
Location: The third coast

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by humbledore »

chad2011 wrote:I am thinking of trying red oak in 4" lengths , these are taken straight from the tree. The logs have been cut for a year. How long should I let them dry? Can I get by without toasting , if not how do I go about toasting my strips???
I should probably let someone more experienced respond, but I have heard several hours at 350 in the oven will get a decent toast. Depends on the size of the wood of course.
Woodpile
Bootlegger
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:40 pm

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by Woodpile »

Supposedly, Old Ironsides was made of live oak, as it is stronger than white oak. Both oaks from that family (live and white) have the same structure blocking flow along the grain - red oak does not have this property. Live Oak has been traditionally used in barrel making, but I have yet to find direct evidence of its value in aging.
Prairiepiss
retired
Posts: 16571
Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:42 am
Location: Somewhere in the Ozarks

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by Prairiepiss »

If you don't toast or char it. You will just get wood flavored spirits. It would be like chewing on a piece of wood. Toasting and or charing carmalizes the wood sugars. Giving you the nice flavors associated with wood aged spirits.

You will also only want to use the heart wood. Not the sap wood. In all actuality 100 year old heart wood is preferred.Let it air dry for a year or two. out side covered from the rain.

There are all kinds of threads regarding red oak. Personaly I wouldn't use it. I would find some good white oak or sugar maple.
It'snotsocoldnow.

Advice For newbies by a newbie.
CM Still Mods
My Stuffs
Fu Man

Mr. Piss
That's Princess Piss to the haters.
User avatar
scout
Bootlegger
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:00 pm
Location: deep woods of arkansas

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by scout »

Woodpile wrote:Supposedly, Old Ironsides was made of live oak, as it is stronger than white oak. Both oaks from that family (live and white) have the same structure blocking flow along the grain - red oak does not have this property. Live Oak has been traditionally used in barrel making, but I have yet to find direct evidence of its value in aging.
Live oak barrels, normally small in size, are usually meant to be for dry goods storage,(nail barrels, etc.) it has also been used (after iron ships became the norm) for pickle barrels in the old days. The stands of live oak were traditionally held in reserve for ship building and ships masts. In fact there are still some stands of live oak in the USA that are owned by the federal government today. White Oak is the traditional wood for tights (liquids ie: alcohol), they will induce flavonoids for around 5 years for wine makers, 8 years for whisky makers (starting with a new barrel), at which point the barrel would be emptied into another barrel for more aging or bottled up. The old scotch makers usually got hold of used barrels (cheaper for them to buy) from wineries or port/sherry makers, these barrels were recharged by scraping and charring the interior before their whisky went in to rest. The Scots still do this today for their best products.

For an example; Glenfiddich 21 year old Gran Reserva Scotch gets to age 20 years 6 months in white oak barrels to get the vanilla, floral and banana flavors, this flavor combination can only come from a used barrel that has been scraped and re-charred. Then the whisky gets the last 4 months of aging in a used white oak rum barrel that has not been recharged, which deepens the complexity of this particular Scotch. Each turn (re-barrel is done at the 5 year mark till it's ready for that finishing rum barrel).
Just a Cooper and Whisky Maker.
"We like visitors, that's why we live in a secluded cabin way out in the wilderness"
User avatar
humbledore
Site Donor
Site Donor
Posts: 898
Joined: Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:12 pm
Location: The third coast

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by humbledore »

That is an interesting read, thanks for posting that Scout!
Woodpile
Bootlegger
Posts: 102
Joined: Sun Jul 21, 2013 5:40 pm

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by Woodpile »

Fascinating
User avatar
scout
Bootlegger
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:00 pm
Location: deep woods of arkansas

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by scout »

chad2011 wrote:I am thinking of trying red oak in 4" lengths , these are taken straight from the tree. The logs have been cut for a year. How long should I let them dry? Can I get by without toasting , if not how do I go about toasting my strips???
Red oak is much more porous than white oak and is not used for barrels, but that doesn't mean it won't work for aging. I'd let the pieces age for about 6 more months then give them a nice toast or maybe even a medium char (alligator craze to about 1 mm in depth of the cracks). The structure of red oak, large tubes with no structure within them, is why it isn't used for barrels ( they make the wood to weak in a bend).
Just a Cooper and Whisky Maker.
"We like visitors, that's why we live in a secluded cabin way out in the wilderness"
smoken
Novice
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:06 pm

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by smoken »

Just wondering if anyone has tried to blend an over oaked product that has maybe too much flavor with a neutral to see if it would balance out. If so does this work or would I be wasting my time and spirit.
bellybuster
Master of Distillation
Posts: 4490
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:00 pm

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by bellybuster »

smoken wrote:Just wondering if anyone has tried to blend an over oaked product that has maybe too much flavor with a neutral to see if it would balance out. If so does this work or would I be wasting my time and spirit.
thats exactly how to do it, blend a little at a time and let it rest before deciding on the flavour.


Just for interest, I use red oak. makes a wonderful drink. Much more bold flavours than white oak but no noticeable tannins. My favourite is red oak and cherry in the same jar, both heavily charred.
smoken
Novice
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:06 pm

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by smoken »

Thanks bellybuster. Will have to try the red oak and cherry combination sounds awesome.
smoken
Novice
Posts: 15
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:06 pm

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by smoken »

Just picked up about 20 board ft of red oak off the ole lady's grandfather going to try it out. Thanks again bellybuster
Fidget
Novice
Posts: 88
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:29 am

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by Fidget »

Are there any European vendors of "premium" oak product bigger and better than chips?
Ramen Tamer
Novice
Posts: 14
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:14 pm

Re: Everything you need to know about oak alternatives.

Post by Ramen Tamer »

Hey there, guys.

I've been having a hell of a time finding a cheap, yet effective, oak source. I don't really have access to my own fresh oak. Also, I wouldn't really know where to begin with charring my own. I've tried charring a few different ways and I always fudge something.

Anyways, I found this guy on Ebay and was wondering what you think, just based off of his video and what he says about his oak.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Charred-White-A ... 0292&rt=nc

I already bought a box of the oak, and I'll let you guys know how it turns out in a week or so...But is 350 degrees for 4 hours enough? I suppose the broiling until flame would take care of it, but I seem to know nothing about oak, based on previous experiments.
The very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit their views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that needs altering. -The Doctor
Post Reply