Blending Overproof to Achieve 40% ABV

[50percent]

Hi

I'm new to this forum, but not to distilling. I have an anomaly that i haven't seen written about here.

I typically produce product from left-overs (pomace, skins, re-constitute) of my wine-making practices. I make wine from scratch, using both California and Canadian grapes.
I am able to standardize finished distillate that is anywhere from 80% ABV to 57% ABV, and bring it down to 50%, or even 48% ABV without difficulty, by simply measuring ABV with a hydrometer-type instrument, calculator, blend filtered water. BUT, if I try to bring the ABV down to 40%, my product turns murky. Sometimes this phenomenon can occur even when attempting to reduce to 45% ABV. It's most peculiar and irritating at the same time, to take two perfectly clear liquids, blend them together, and create a cloudy mess! This doesn't settle or clear: I left a bottle standing for over a year and it remained murky. I have lost some very promising product as a result of this.

Can somebody help me with an explanation / chemistry lesson?? Why is this happening? What can i do to prevent this, and keep my quasi-finished product clear?

Thank you,

50percent

[Badmotivator]

It sounds like lipds. Above 46% ABV they are dissolved, below that they clump up and make your spirit cloudy. Here's more on that: http://www.maltmaniacs.net/E-pistles/Ma ... whisky.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Hope that helps.

[Oldvine Zin]

So you are making grappa, no? When you say filtered water - filtered or distilled? Are you adding water to the alcohol or the other way around - will make a difference, also the temp between the two.

OVZ

[50percent]

Yes, Grappa is what the italians call it.

I'm adding filtered water, never distilled.

And I add the water to the distillate. Is this not correct? What do you know about temperatures? I've been wondering if adding water that is warmer than the distillate, thereby making the two liquids closer in density, would have a positive effect?? (Although, from what I've now read about lipids in the distillate, I'm guessing that's the wrong thing to chase....)

50percent

[Oldvine Zin]

I'm still a new guy at this but from I've experienced is that adding water to alcohol will result in a cloudy mixture. It's that acid to base reaction, also having both liquids at about the same temp helps as well as using distilled water.

Good luck
OVZ

[Badmotivator]

It might be interesting to slowly warm up a bottle of your cloudy spirit and see at what temperature the cloudiness re-dissolves and the spirit clarifies.

I haven't been able to find information about which end of the distillation produces the most lipids. If we had that info it might suggest a better way to make cuts to avoid the cloudiness. Oh, wait, it's grappa. There are no cuts.

Anyway, maybe next time just leave the spirit at 46%.

[NZChris]

Unless you are selling, misting isn't all that important. Many of mine are cloudy because I chase the flavours I want with little regard for clarity.

The shape and height of your swan neck will make a difference, so will how fast you run and how you choose your final blend.

A good educational exercise is to make up 40% samples of each jar throughout a run to see which jars mist. You might be surprised which ones they are. If you choose your blend knowing which jars mist at 40%, you should be able to get clear product when you eventually proof it for drinking.

Search the forum for misting, clouding and haze to find threads discussing this subject.

[bartus-h]

I agree with Oldvine Zin: I have understood and experienced that adding water to alcohol mists, and the other way around it doesn't...

What causes it I don't know But it is not necessarily the oils in the distillate, I understands it happens also with pure alcohol and water...

[skow69]

Here is a related discussion: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =1&t=57249

[Pikey]

Dunno, "cloudy" only seems to be a problem to me on "molasses runs" when I'm into Tails. (Which only goes back into the pot anyhow ! )

I'd certainly be looking to eliminate any crap condensing out of my "stuff"

[50percent]

Hi Badmotivator,

I understand your sentiments, re: "it's grappa, there are no cuts."

Most sadly, the majority of grappa production is produced by discarding the 1st ounce, take everything else until it turns cloudy.

Happily, I can tell you that i take cuts, not unlike much of what I've read on this forum for whiskey production.
From a 16 Litre wash, I typically discard the first 210 ml production. Then anywhere from 280 to 500 ml is separated to heads, then comes the body (which I often remove what i call the "heart" of the body -- absolute premium) and then, I typically separate about 1.5 lt of tails, down to about 20 - 30% ABV.

I can tell you that when you produce grappa in this way -- not gready -- the product is exponentially superior. I've had guests from Northern Italy, the origin of the product, tell me that, a product like mine is not readily available, and one needs to know where to get it, and pay upwards of 50 Euro for a 1/2 litre bottle.

I can also tell you that if you were to sit around a chimenea one night with a friend, and accidently consume 3/4 of a bottle of product produced in this manner, you might very well wobble to bed, but you'll be up at 6 AM for work, bright-eyed, and bussy-tailed.

[50percent]

Thank you, NZ Chris.

I will pursue.

[50percent]

Hi Bartus-H

So are you suggesting that if I add the ethanol to the water -- instead of adding the water tho the ethanol -- that i will avoid the cloudiness ?????

[NZChris]

Do a side by side comparison and decide for yourself if it works, then come back and tell us how it went.

[Shine0n]

Idk about adding water or adding likker but I for some reason add water and haven't had this problem at all.

The only time I get haze is when doing rum and if I cut to 80p/40% which I rarely do, it tastes much better at 100-110p. I dont do shots and either mix with ice or a soda and ice.
I also filter my spirit right out of the spout and once again after I blend when bottling. I use un-dyed white felt for this and you can see the impurities left behind.

To me, you've gotten a bit too far into the tails. Either keep it a higher % or make tighter cut points.

Shine0n

[bartus-h]

Sorry, 50percent, I missed your post... A friend of mine told about the importance of mixing in the right order. He works at a jenever distillery, and they mix about 500 liters of water, neutral alcohol and esprit (the actual herb distillate). There is definitely something happening when alcohol and water mix, the vessel is warming up significantly, and the volumes are not added up exaxtly. I have understood that this has to do with H-bridges forming. I can imagine that when you put in the water first, you add alcohol to a low alcohol concentration mixture in the beginning. The other way around you are pouring water in a high alcohol percentage mixture. The reation can be much quicker in one of those cases. Similar to adding acid to water instead of the other way around to prevent a severe reaction...

So I do think there is a scientific basis for what I also withessed myself. I don't know if it is reversible though... I just drank my brandy cloudy

[johnnyv]

Sorry, 50percent, I missed your post... A friend of mine told about the importance of mixing in the right order. He works at a jenever distillery, and they mix about 500 liters of water, neutral alcohol and esprit (the actual herb distillate). There is definitely something happening when alcohol and water mix, the vessel is warming up significantly, and the volumes are not added up exaxtly. I have understood that this has to do with H-bridges forming. I can imagine that when you put in the water first, you add alcohol to a low alcohol concentration mixture in the beginning. The other way around you are pouring water in a high alcohol percentage mixture. The reation can be much quicker in one of those cases. Similar to adding acid to water instead of the other way around to prevent a severe reaction...

So I do think there is a scientific basis for what I also withessed myself. I don't know if it is reversible though... I just drank my brandy cloudy

Ethanol and water are completely miscible in any concentration.
Cloudiness that doesn't clear quickly can be from the addition of acetates and higher molecular weight alcohols which are more soluble in ethanol than in water.
These can become relatively concentrated in the distillate compared to the wash on mixing with water they can be thrown out of solution.
What is happening is you are forming an emulsion of low solubility solvents in water, ethanol is acting as the surfactant which stabilizes the emulsion.
If there is a difference in clarity depending on the way the water and distillate is combined it will be because one method gives larger emulsion particle size compared to the other, the smaller particle size is not visible to the eye.