Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by HolyBear » Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:31 am

Pigroasters were cut length ways "with" the grain. Mine are cut "cross grain" to provide lots more end wood. The spirals talked about earlier in this thread are said to work well and I think its because I of all the exposed end wood. It makes sence to me that by cutting cross grain, the spirit would be able to flow through the grain much easier.
Wood grain is kinda like a stack of pipes. Once used to transport nutrients up and down the tree. By cutting across those "pipes" every 1/4", you get much more flow through them...
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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by Odin » Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:02 am

Yeah, that makes sense, W! And that is why they work so fast!

Might be starting up pro in half a year time. Hope you have some timber left?

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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by HolyBear » Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:54 pm

Only about 2.5 million acres Sir Odin, maybe we can make that last... if not, I've got some good ol boys that might be able ta help us out... cheers!!!
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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by ron71157 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:17 am

On the sticks for 11 days now
applewood on left..oak on right
applewood on left..oak on right
am satisfied with the color..should i leave the sticks in for continued ageing?
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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by frozenthunderbolt » Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:42 am

ron71157 wrote:On the sticks for 11 days now
whiskey2.jpg
am satisfied with the color..should i leave the sticks in for continued ageing?
Up to you - taste it and see.

note oaking is not aging - it just facilitates it. The sugars, tannins and acids etc draw out of the wood initially colour and flavour the spirit but over the longer term (6, 9+ months) act as catalysts for more chemical changes in the spirit that develop the flavours and knock the rough edges of a little heads and tails in the mix.

I would give it a month or two on the wood and then 6 months to a year off it to age. BUT i use less wood than you and dont cut with pigroasters profile so you may well need less time.
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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by ron71157 » Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:56 am

thanks frozen..too much fun..i'll give it a taste tonight and see. plan on using this batch as xmas presents...as i refine my processes i think i'll set some up for long term ageing but for now i'm drinking it as fast as i cook it.
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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by TimJ » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:35 am

But if you are looking for end grain, why wouldn't you just cut cubes, or even round slices from a tree limb? Like thick slices of trail bologna.Remove the bark and cadmium layer, then toast, or char it and drop into jar?
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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by ron71157 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:02 pm

Hi all,

After a month on aok and applewood bottled some up for xmas presents..of course i had to try them first..Oak; nice amber color after cutting back to 80 proof (110 while on the sticks) very rich aroma clean across the palette with a nice warm feeling aftertastes of vanilla and especially caramel...nothing like i've ever tasted before but that's what its all about. applewood has a deeper color and aroma and flavor almost scotch-like in its body and aftertastes again vanilla and caramel...warm feeling very smooth. Thanks to pigroaster and all involved..this was generation I sweetfeed..now up to generation IV. Should have more flavor from the grains..will set some up similiarly for longer term wooding/ageing.

Keep it going, Keep it going, Keep it going full steam!!! :lol:
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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by Copper Thumper » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:02 pm

I love the idea of this....makes me want to make some. How much u charging? :p

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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by ron71157 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:39 pm

do the research here and start brewing.....i drink it as fast as i make it :lol:
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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by Copper Thumper » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:50 pm

i was talking about the oak strips....i need more wood cutting tools!!

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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by ron71157 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:50 am

there has been mention here of toasted oak cubes, sticks, spirals for sale,, you might try some of those or get some tools.... just waych your fingers
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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by Odin » Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:12 am

Just collected my Hungarian oak bullits. Maybe an inch long, 1/3 of an inch in diameter. One kilo of medium toast, another of medium plus toast. They smell delicious! Will do some experiments soon. These bullits are made from oak. True wood. Not some sh*te pressed together. Cut with the grain, giving a 30% 'cross the grain cut (the upper and under parts) and 70% with the grain. The depth is (supposed to be) that it represents a medium or medium plus toasted barrel. Normally used to age red wine. I hope to find complexity and do not expect the one dimensional taste of toasted shavings, that are much thinner. First impressions 'by nose' point to a good direction. Spoke to the guy who makes them (and also up to 500 liters wine barrels). He says it is a first time his bullits are used for ageing likker instead of wine. We talked some and this is what I will be using as a guide line: for ageing over a year, use 5 grams per liter. For ageing up untill a year, use 10 grams. I have two jars waiting for me in Holland. Around 2.25 liters of 60% rye whiskey (based on a 30% malted barley, 10% corn, 60% rye maltwine from Belgium) that I took final cuts on. And also 2.25 liters of the same maltwine I redistilled with berries & herbs (geneva). I will try the medium plus bullits on the whiskey, and the medium toast bullits on the geneva.

More to come.

Some reflections on Pigroasters oak ageing sticks. Or actually Wacabis sticks. Difference: W's are cut across the grain. For max exposure. Sure does work fast. The part of getting wood sugars & tastes over. Ageing still takes time. The intereactions between the various ingredients/molecules still needs to take place. So a "cut across the grain" gives faster extraction, but that is not the same as faster ageing. Hope I make sence. It still takes time for the magic to happen.

But magic is happening. Took some of my single malt aged on W's oak sticks with me to Hungary. Mighty good already!

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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by HolyBear » Mon Dec 31, 2012 5:55 am

Yes Odin, what you've found corresponds directly to what Dnder said in one of his posts a while back. I didn't put it in "The Book of Dunderhead" yet, but paraphraseing it would be something like,... you can do things that will speed up aging time, like using a smaller barrel, or heat makes chemical reactions take place faster, but aging still takes time. Then something about acids, and something about its a phase that he went through (trying to age faster) but ultimately aging just takes time...

So, I guess by cutting cross grain, the chemicals can be released into the product faster, kinda like using a smaller barrel, but the aging chemical reactions are still gonna take time. Heat should help...
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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by bcboyz86 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:01 am

How long does someone age the likker on oak before taking it out? From what I have seen/read, the more toasting and. har the quicker the color comes across but not necessarily the flavor. And since the wood will give off wood flavor before settling down to a nice mellow drink, how do you know when to take it off? I would like to get the good flavors out of Tue wood, but minimize the chance of over oaking it and ruining the flavor entirely. Is there a degree of woody-ness to judge off of? Like say it tastes like you licked a sliver all the way to had a mouth filled with sawdust flavor? Or is it another one of those "to each his own" methods? And just do whatever ya want...?
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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by frozenthunderbolt » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:48 am

bcboyz86 wrote: Is there a degree of woody-ness to judge off of? Like say it tastes like you licked a sliver all the way to had a mouth filled with sawdust flavor? Yep Or is it another one of those "to each his own" methods? And just do whatever ya want...? Also yep
:lol:
I use about 3-5 'dominoes' 10cmx2.5cmx6mm per 2.5-4.5 L depending on what the spirit is. 3-6 months on the oak would be a good place to start - taste each week, don't freak out if it suddenly tastes like crap - leave it another month and be amazed at how 'woodiness' can disappear again! :D

Generally the rule of thumb is less oak and more time gives better spirit.

Quantity wise i certainly wouldn't exceed a thumb sized chink per 500ml and it would be better to have a bit that sized in a Liter.

Quite often guys will start with a bit more than they need and then remove some (but not all) of the oak after a month, or two, or three -helpful I know, but it really is a matter for experimentation and developing a pallet and some instinct for how much is right, and whether it should be light or dark toast and or charred or not.

One thing i have done in the past is toast/char my sticks or dominoes whole, and then break them up into bits about the size of 1/2 a regular gambling type dice - this way i get better spirit penetration, more control over the total quantity of oak, and looking at the colors and char levels i can select a wide range of bits of wood to ensure i get a good complex flavour pulled from all things across the
toast-char spectrum.

It is important to only break it up AFTER toasting and charring though; trying to heat treat tiny bits of wood is a recipe for mono-chromatic flavour profiles as it is very hard to get any variation in the level of cooking.

Good luck have fun, and can i suggest a small toaster oven used outside (it keeps the women folk much happier) - I toast in a biscuit tin with pinholes punched all over it and the door cracked open a tad.
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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by WIski » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:28 pm

Thank You FTB, (Iced Lightning)

Lots of great info there.... :clap:

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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by frozenthunderbolt » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:13 am

WIski wrote:Thank You FTB, (Iced Lightning)
Glad it translates; that was the moniker that i originally wanted when creating my hotmail account 14 years ago but it was taken so I had to come up with something contemporaneous - and i've used it ever since :thumbup: The original would fit jus' perfect round there though - never even thought on it!
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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by bcboyz86 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:11 pm

So I have some old oak boards in the garage that have just been sittin around... Do ya think that would be ok to clean up, slice against the grain them maybe boil them to sanitize and toast/char them? And also, if I didn't wanna use an oven to toqst, could I use my BBQ instead? It gets pretty toasty and if it gets Smokey it wouldn't hurt anything... Or go get clean oak scraps from the local furniture store? Or does it NEED to be weathered oak? I've read some posts on here that said boiling the wood would kinda act like weathering...
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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by Ghost » Mon Feb 04, 2013 12:37 pm

I have ventured into oaking for the last few months and I have been using American medium toasted oak chips I found at the home brew shop in town. I know this has been discussed but I had to add that I highly reccomend this if you havent tried it - changes the profile of my UJSSM completely - well to a degree. SMOOTH is not even the word for what it does to the heart cuts! I plan on making my own oak sticks soon by the directions in this thread - good job and great info!
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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by bcboyz86 » Tue Feb 05, 2013 2:57 pm

Did you stick to just the med. Chips? Or did ya toast some darker and char a couple to mimick a layered toasted stick? I've been kickin around that idea a bit and think it should work the same. You would be getting the different wood sugars from the different toasted chips without having to try and toast the chips in layers, which seems not possible due to how thin they are...
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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by Braz » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:38 pm

bcboyz86 wrote:So I have some old oak boards in the garage that have just been sittin around...
White oak is good. Red oak is not good. You need to figure out what you have.

If it is white oak, I see no need to boil it. Just toast it according to the time and temps you can find on this site and char it if you want.
Braz

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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by HolyBear » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:47 pm

+1 Braz, 350° + will kill anything, no need to boil in water...
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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by ron71157 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:59 pm

After 1 month on oak and applewood and another month to mellow:
oak/apple - apple - oak
oak/apple - apple - oak
the oaks are smooth and vanillin..the apple needs a little more time to lose the "woodiness" but still rich in caramel and all very smooth at 100 proof!

Good things take time..I'll see in 6 months
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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by bcboyz86 » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:05 am

So I'm guessing no one has tried to toast the chips for different amounts of time to try to duplicate a stick toasted with different layers yet?
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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by tripilio » Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:30 pm

Have anyone used the white oak sold on HD? I have not been successful in finding used staves and I rather make my own chips than to pay store price. Any ideas are welcome!

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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by MrAlarming » Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:26 pm

So I just spent an evening milling, toasting, and charring some white oak. I pretty much have every tool known to mankind so profile isn't an issue. I'm fairly glad I followed the original posters suggested profile - although I didn't duplicate exactly. Bandsaw cuts to save wood are a bad; the wood won't char properly. Which, is the point of this post:

INTRICATE PROFILES ARE NO GOOD (unless you can guarantee proper char - which I don't believe is possible). Which, IMO, is not something learned by reading.... Next time, I'll make a profile not so intricate - or maybe not burn it so long; prolly both.

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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by pigroaster » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:27 pm

I am surprised this post is still active. I have made a new change that works for me. The first time I use these sticks I cut them to 1/2 x1/2 x6 inches long, char and use them 6 per gallon. The next time I use them 19 months later, I cut to the profile shown by cutting in 1/8 th inch with the table saw and a feather board. I char again and new wood is exposed for the next batch. Keep on aging! It adds to a full mouthfeel and smoothes out the run even if you only do hearts like I do!

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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by Odin » Sun Dec 28, 2014 10:25 am

I just toasted another one of pigroasters/Holy Bear's sticks. I put them in alufoil, pinch a few holes in, and put it in the (air heated) oven at 210 degrees C (around 410 F) for 90 minutes (including heat-up). Somewhere after 75 minutes I get that great vanilla smell in the room. But after 90 minutes it is not there anymore. Results are fine ... but I wonder if it wouldn't be better to stop the toasting process after 75 instead of 90 minutes, because that's when I really smell those nice vanillins ...

Anyone any experience here?

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Re: Pigroasters new optimal profile for oak aging sticks

Post by firewater69 » Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:24 pm

I find 90 min @ 400-415 works best for me. i lay my sticks right on the oven shelf, a nice dark toast ( no char for me ) the smell is awesome & gives me the flavor im looking for.
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