aging with electricity!

Treatment and handling of your distillate.

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Red Lion
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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by Red Lion » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:57 am

absinthe wrote:well i have a few neon sign transformers maybe i'll give it a go :P 600 volt per cm? i can manage that easy.. not sure about the titanium electrodes though..
When reading the original article you can see the setup they used on page 2. I believe it is essential to use 600V/cm @ 3000Hz.
Dr_T wrote:I think that the fact that there was an effect at all shows that there is potential for a usable technique.

Think of cooking as a comparison- a sheet of cookies baked at 375 for 11 minutes will be great- bake 'em for 20, they're trash. Same idea here; finding the right time/voltage mix is all that would be needed.
I totally agree. Finding the right mix is always the key, with everything. I think it's plausible, but has yet to be proven. (who goes first?)

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heynonny
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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by heynonny » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:26 am

I am not a scientist, chemist, wine expert, etc. I move dirt from point A to point B for a living.
Having said that, I must say that I am extremely skeptical of anything and everything coming out of cHINA, Their (proven) record (of domestic output) has caused me to look for country of orgin on anything and everything edible that I might suspect. (I only eat domestic cHINESE!!)I would not drink a cHINESE wine, electocuted, or not, period. What do I know? -hey-
  
 
 
       Oh,look!! Its a hole in the space-time contuum!!

Red Lion
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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by Red Lion » Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:21 am

heynonny wrote:I am not a scientist, chemist, wine expert, etc. I move dirt from point A to point B for a living.
...
Well, to be honest: I'm no scientist/chemist/wine expert either, but I'm working hard on all three of those! 8)
That being said: it doesn't matter that the electricity-experiment was conducted on Chinese wine. It's just a proof of concept: if it works on their Cabernet-Sauvignon, it works on all (or that is what is expected). To apply this method to other wines, you just need to fine-tune the voltage, flow rate, time, etc.
ps. Don't worry: I don't drink Chinese stuff either.

The big question, especially on this forum, is: does this method work this well on distillates, too? To answer that question you can rush to your cellar, grab the first batch you get your hands on, empty it in your bathtub and throw in an electric toaster... I doubt this would work.
For the method to work, you need to know what this method does to the wine. Ergo: what reactions are accelerated? Do these reactions take place during the maturation of my distillate as well? If that last one is a yes, you might want to try to duplicate the experiment. The downside is that it probably needs some fine-tuning, which means that a lot of potentialy good spirits get wasted. The upside is that once perfected, this method might be the best improvement in the history of distilling!

Oh, and I think they already patented the concept, for the Chinese have been zapping since 2001, so don't go running to any large company just yet. :)
(needs conformation)

The Chemist
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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by The Chemist » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:51 am

Well, I am a scientist/chemist...though I won't claim to be a wine expert.

When you deal with electricity in chemisty (which is a lot...) you generally speak of "redox" reactions--"reduction/oxidation". So, basically, electricity equal oxidation (leave me alone...it's a gross simplification...I know). There's at least the possibilty that it may work.

But...

As I've said elsewhere, what we refer to as "aging" is a very complex constellation of reactions leading to some sort of equilibrium that "we like". It's a great leap of faith to believe that shocking the hell out of your booze would arrive at this very equilibrium. It's much more likely that by 'dumping' energy into the system you would select for other reactions than the slow, gentle ones that lead to "aged" character.
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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by trthskr4 » Thu Jan 15, 2009 8:30 pm

Maybe it just titanium coats(electroplating) something in the wine. We are talking about non-distilled items here so there's still alot of other stuff in wine that we leave in the pot. When a kid grows up too fast they usually turn to shit, I think spirits would do the same. I'm not a veterinarian either but I know what BS smells like. Hello, hello communist propaganda, our scientists are smart too.
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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by The Chemist » Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:35 am

trthskr4 wrote: I'm not a veterinarian either but I know what BS smells like.
OMG!!! :lol: :lol:

I'm stealin' that one...
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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by rad14701 » Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:05 pm

ZAP...!!! ZAP...!!! MMMMOOOOoooo...!!!

Red Lion
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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by Red Lion » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:38 am

The Chemist wrote:Well, I am a scientist/chemist...though I won't claim to be a wine expert.

When you deal with electricity in chemisty (which is a lot...) you generally speak of "redox" reactions--"reduction/oxidation". So, basically, electricity equal oxidation (leave me alone...it's a gross simplification...I know). There's at least the possibilty that it may work.
Aren't most of the aging-reactions redox-reactions? You know, ester formation out of alcohol? The rest of the flavour compounds are formed during fermentation or migrate out of the wood, right?
As I've said elsewhere, what we refer to as "aging" is a very complex constellation of reactions leading to some sort of equilibrium that "we like". It's a great leap of faith to believe that shocking the hell out of your booze would arrive at this very equilibrium. It's much more likely that by 'dumping' energy into the system you would select for other reactions than the slow, gentle ones that lead to "aged" character.
Shouldn't all reactions accelerate evenly? (providing there are no limitations) And true: most likely the zapped end-result won't taste like a 12y Scotch, but it still might be incredible. Every large distillery has created it's own specific flavour to the old whisk(e)y/bourbon/rum/etc. So wouldn't it matter to introduce a zapped 'old' flavour alongside the established ones? Not to replace, but to add to.

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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by Selby » Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:52 pm

It seems to be the electric field that does the job since the wine apparently is not in direct contact with the electrodes. I don't understand the titanium bit. Of course the ultimate question for us- if it works - is will it ever be available for our use?

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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by Selby » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:57 am

Thank's for the link Red Lion.

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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by Red Lion » Wed Jan 28, 2009 3:29 am

Selby wrote:Thank's for the link Red Lion.
No problem.
Selby wrote:It seems to be the electric field that does the job since the wine apparently is not in direct contact with the electrodes. I don't understand the titanium bit. Of course the ultimate question for us- if it works - is will it ever be available for our use?
'Electric field' means that an electric current is run through the wine. And yes, there is direct contact with the electrodes, hence the titanium: no oxidation of the electrodes.

I've done some research on the reactions that might be accelerated when spirit is zapped: ester formation is accelerated rapidly, when enough oxygen is present. This means that this theory just became more plausible. Yay for Tesla-coils! :twisted:

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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by Selby » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:53 am

It occured to me that wine makers face a bigger job cleanig up their product since they are stuck with all the bad alcohols we can avoid . I mean look how sick you can get on wine compared to our carefully crafted spirit. After reading the paper, the differences it would make for us seem scarcely worth the effort. I'll stick with the tried & true for now until something meatier comes up.

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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by lloyd778 » Sat May 23, 2009 12:19 pm

I agree that the very idea of making wine or sprits improved by shocking them is, well, shocking. So that of course made me interested enough to read this thread through. I was a little amused by the China bashing. Ignorance is always so funny. I am American and mostly I am proud of it. I have been to China many times and if you have never been then you know nothing. Example: we get crap from China because that is what we want and pay for. We beat them over the head on price then complain about quality. Trust me, they can make quality products if we order quality. We order cheap. As far as the liquor? I must admit we have them beat by a long shot. But that may just be my learned tastes. I tried many of their offerings from many different parts of the country and the best I found was in Hangzhou. It was 60% I believe. A fine fruity flavor that I immediately wanted to buy a kilo of. Yes, sold by weight. I paid 7 RMB (about $1 USD) for a liter. It is very cool shopping for booze there. A liquor store is typically stocked with large ceramic jars with sand bags on top of them. You are given a one ounce cup, or thereabouts, and are free to sample all you want! I staggered away with my one-liter purchase in tow.
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Wai‘ona
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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by Wai‘ona » Sat May 23, 2009 1:22 pm

lloyd778 wrote:I agree that the very idea of making wine or sprits improved by shocking them is, well, shocking. So that of course made me interested enough to read this thread through.
+1

The next thing you know they'll be trying to make us believe that we can send letters and pictures anywhere in the world, through the air, Instantaneously!

"I'm not a veternarian, but I do know what BS smells like."

I followed Red Lion's link to the article at Science Direct, but don't want to spend that much money for access to read it. Is it available for free anywhere else?
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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by kiwistiller » Sat May 23, 2009 5:32 pm

I have access to most of science direct through work, here is the abstract and conclusion:

ABSTRACT
A pilot plant scale innovative technique applying AC high voltage electric field to accelerate wine aging of
Young Cabernet Sauvignon is reported in this paper. The design principles, equipment configuration and its
effect on wine taste and flavour are presented. Results from a sensory evaluation group demonstrated that
there were various effects on the wine quality under different conditions, some positive while others
negative. An optimum treatment, with electric field 600 V/cm and treatment time 3 min, was identified to
accelerate wine aging, which made the harsh and pungent raw wine become harmonious and dainty. HPLC
and GC/MS combined with routine chemical analysis methods were used to identify the differences between
the treated and untreated samples. It was found that the contents of higher alcohols as well as aldehydes in
volatile compounds decreased to a large number, meanwhile, the contents of esters and free amino acids
slightly increased while others remained unchanged through all treatments. The results of this study show
that the technology of accelerating wine aging by high voltage electric field is a feasible method to shorten
wine maturing process times and to improve the quality of a young wine, if favourable process conditions are
chosen.
Industrial relevance: The application of physical treatment methods other than heat, such as electric field,
magnetic field, ultrasonic wave and microwave, etc., for green processing of foods, is becoming popular. AC
electric current is of continuous wave form, thus being seldom used in food processing. However, numerous
previous studies about the effect and mechanisms of accelerating wine aging with high voltage AC electric
field have been conducted in the Laboratory of South China University of Technology. This manuscript
presents the effect of high intensity AC electric field on young wine’s physicochemical properties and sensory
quality. The results presented in this paper show that it is a promising and novel technology to shorten the
young wine’s aging period. Recently, a few of the Chinese winery companies have already started to set up
the plant scale equipment.

CONCLUSION
Generally, the application of the AC electric field seems to be a
promising novel process to artificially accelerate the aging process of
fresh wine when suitable conditions are applied. In this study, the
sensory quality of the treated wine under AC electric field 600 V/cm for
3 min was found to be much better than the untreated one and other
treated samples. This treated samplewas highly appraised as with high
sensory value by the sensory evaluation group and considered as commercially
marketable. However it also can be concluded that if the
operating conditions are not chosen properly, an adverse effect is also
possible to acquire. As far as all the analysed compounds are concerned,
higher alcohols and aldehydes are the most sensitive compounds, then
followed by esters and free amino acids, while others almost remained
unchanged when they exposed to external AC electric field. Taking all
the aspects into consideration, it seems that the changes of chemical
compounds are not sufficient to explain the sensory variations so far,
especially when the aspects of mouthfeel balance and new unpleasant
scents are concerned. Finally, the mechanisms concerning hydrogen
bonding among ethanol and water molecules should be taken into
account as suggested in some literature (Nose, Myojin, Hojo, Ueda, &
Okuda, 2005; Peeters and Leroy, 1994).



I would be very interested if this could be replicated, but I do suppose that anyone who got this working sure as heck wouldn't be shouting it out for the world. nope, off to the patent office and then start selling...

If anyone wants, I can pm them the whole article. I'm not to keen on posting the whole thing here, seems a bit too close to stealing.

KS

EDIT: it seems that I can't attach pdf files (or any other type for that matter) to PMs, so if you want the file you'll have to pm me your email address.
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Hawke
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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by Hawke » Sun May 24, 2009 3:53 am

I had to zip my PDF to get it to attatch.
It is the very things that we think we know, that keep us from learning what we should know.
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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by goose eye » Sun May 24, 2009 5:08 am

ole boys seen some strange thangs work in the likker business an some of em legal. ole boys would have to taste that likker.

red lion you no much bout honey an export from china. first lead aint outlawed in paint . they
paint there hive with paint the paint flakes an gets in honey.
chemicals bans aint what they is here.
then add pinhookin middle men that ship to another country to change country of origin
or mix it an call it a honey blend without reference to china.
now all these is facts an you can look up but it easyer to spin.

as far as them ceramic pots holdin likker. you do no they sometime use lead in the glazes

so im tole

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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by lloyd778 » Sun May 24, 2009 6:10 am

Goose eye, you are correct on all points. As this is not a thread on China, but rather a discussion about electrocuting alcohol, I’ll refrain from delving into the greed/corruption/bribery that is practiced on both sides of the globe. In ten years I hope to retire in China, at least for a few years. And live very well on $10 – 20 a day. And who knows, maybe sell enough good booze to really enjoy myself. Yes, the pots probably contained lead. I filled up a plastic water bottle and a coke bottle with 60% alcohol. Did I think that was bad? You bet. Did I drink it? You bet. Enjoy it? Yep.

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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by goose eye » Sun May 24, 2009 6:33 am

first i wanna apologize to red lion for mixin his words an yourin up.

yup without a dout one of the bigest woe in the world is greed an nos no borders.
i no this is bout shockin likker but wonder if lead was present in the tests an if the lead played a role.

you say you can live well on 10 to 20 dollars. there a diference between livein easy an bein well.
for warned is for armed

so im tole

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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by kiwistiller » Sun May 24, 2009 1:49 pm

Hawke wrote:I had to zip my PDF to get it to attatch.
Really, I tried that, it said zip extension not allowed, I also tried just changing the extension (works for some things!) to .jpg, .doc, and I also tried removing the extension before I gave up. I must be doing it wrong.

KS
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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by HookLine » Sun May 24, 2009 6:22 pm

Attachments in PMs are not allowed on HD, helps control spam, especially p*rn spam. You will have to do it via email.
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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by schnell » Thu May 28, 2009 7:02 pm

I'm a scientist/chemist also. I immediately think redox when we talk about using electricity.

however, i should point out that ester formation is not a redox reaction. the oxidation state does not change. There is something more here going on than simply ester formation through condensation reactions.

I'll read the whole paper and try to give a better informed opinion after i check it's references.

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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by schnell » Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:38 am

Ok, kiwistiller hooked me up with a copy and I read it this morning.

It looks inconclusive to me. It looks like science published for the sole purpose of keeping these particular scientists in jobs. Their only useful conclusion is that further research needs to be done.

One of the only significant changes I saw measured due to increasing field strength, was the increase in cysteine, which may be due to disruption of disulphide bonds. This is interesting.

They do not say how they measured the aldehydes, which is a clue in itself. Aldehydes are often measured as a general class of compounds, not as individual components. Aldehydes are the half way point in oxidation between alcohols and organic acids. More detail would be handy.

Their volatiles analysis is not very good. (Worse than useless!) Liquid-liquid extractions with DCM that are then evaporated with vacuum to remove the dichloromethane don't preserve the volatiles. Bad technique, probably chosen for its convenience and familiarity. Such extraction methods are better suited to semi-volatiles and not VOC's. They get a big fat F on this one, none of this data on volatiles is valid. They should have considered a purge and trap to feed their GC/MS. (They probably didn't have the instrumentation for the inlet...) To prove my point - where's the ethyl acetate?? Oh. It's to volatile...

The small change in total acidity is reasonable considering the increase in the 3 measured esters.

The loss of higher alcohols is very interesting. Why? Where? How? Again further investigation is warranted.

So they passed a tube through an EM field without putting a current through the solution. No redox likely. Maybe some interference with supramolecular assemblys, but no measurments were made that can point to any further guesses (hypothesis).

I don't think this is going anywhere useful. Their chemistry sucked so bad that I think elsevier should be mocked mercilessly for publishing it. Call it qualitative analysis at BEST. The only useful bit was that they said one of the samples tasted better than the control or other treated samples.

Conclusion: They know something happened, but have no idea what. They even published useless data from incorrectly measured experiments. That is worse than misleading.

Just because the department has a GC/MS doesn't mean anyone there knows how to use it. But they got published! Maybe even kept their grants and/or got tenure. Maybe even got some more government $$ to keep the ball rolling.

Just for disclosure: I'm an organic biochemist and have made my adult living off of research chemistry. I've done many years of analytical chemistry with GC/MS and LC/MS. These guys should not have published this paper. The peer-review and publisher have failed here bigtime.

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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by HookLine » Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:32 pm

It looks inconclusive to me. It looks like science published for the sole purpose of keeping these particular scientists in jobs. Their only useful conclusion is that further research needs to be done.
He he. Wish I had a dollar for every one of those kind of papers I have read.
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Re: aging with electricity!

Post by lloyd778 » Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:04 pm

He He, wish I had a dollar for ever dollar I wasted chasing crap that never panned out.

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