Great Apple brandy: Toasted or charred barrel?

[Slow & Steady]

[quote="The Chemist"]"Age" is a small word with a pile of meanings...

"Once the wood components are in the distillate, aging will proceed whether in barrel, glass, or stainless steel."
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Hmmm... I don't get any aging after I move my distillate to glass. My wine continues to age due to the nature of the many esters created during fermentation. That is the reason that I age my hard cider for such a long time. The clear spirit is delicious and aging in a used barrel creates a very fine spirit in 3 years time. The aging process stops for 40% ABV and above distillates, at least that is my experience.

Currently, new 5 gallon White Oak Char barrels cost about $140 each from The Barrel Mill and about $170 from 1000 Barrels. I don't think that a bad price considering the improvement it makes on my Brandy.

You do need to plan ahead. I start a batch of Bourbon equal to the amount of Brandy I will produce. The bourbon barrel ages while the hard cider ages as a wine in those 59 Gallon Plastic barrels that apple juice concentrate is imported in from Argentina. When the Bourbon is done the barrel is perfect for aging Brandy.

It is my experience that the 5 Gallon Barrel shortens the time needed to achive the desired amount of Oak Flavor so the used barrel becomes a valuable item for long term slow aged Brandies and Single Malts Whiskeys.

[The Chemist]

Not clear in my mind. Does 3) type ageing still occur if fresh white spirit is stored in an inert airtight container?

Some reaction in type 3 will proceed in an inert, airtight container, but some require oxygen. If the oxygen is there, they will 'go', if not, they won't.

[Slow & Steady]

I should have written:
The aging process stops for 40% ABV and above distillates after I put it in glass containers, at least that is my experience.

[Slow & Steady]

I appreciate you input slowandsteady, you sound like you have an indepth knowledge of this subject.
Does your work bear on this?

No... not as a job... but I have enjoyed twenty six years as a hobbist "wine maker/distiller".

[theholymackerel]

I should have written:
The aging process stops for 40% ABV and above distillates after I put it in glass containers, at least that is my experience.

In my experience, a bottle that sat on the back of a shelf for a year is way better than it was as a fresh spirit. Maybe yer sniffer and taster has been dented by tobacco?

[Slow & Steady]

In my experience, a bottle that sat on the back of a shelf for a year is way better than it was as a fresh spirit. Maybe yer sniffer and taster has been dented by tobacco?

No... I'm not a smoker, but this I know for sure, whisky aging refers to the time spent in a wooden barrel.

The US federal law for Bourbon is quite specific concerning claims of Age or Aging. The product can only claim the amount of time it was in a Oak Barrel.

Scottish law regulates the aging claim to the same criteria for all Single Malt Whiskey.

I'm not an expert, so my claim means nothing, but if I tell you it is 3 years old, I'm referring to the time it spent in a cask not in a bottle on the shelf.

Concerning your claim as to the difference between fresh spirit and some stored in glass for a year... I suspect the improvement you have detected is the break down of Ethyl Acetate. Light, oxygen and time work on Ethyl Acetate to break it down to something else... I forget what becomes of it but it tastes bad and time helps change it. I get rid of my Ethyl Acetate with air bubbles and light while in the low wines stage. Kind of a resting period to get rid of some of the nasty wet cardboard flavor that some mashes produce.

[The Chemist]

While you are correct, S&S, as to the legal hoops regarding "age", chemistry is no respecter of the law...

Ethyl acetate is one of the most important compounds (especially in regard to aroma) in Bourbon and most other spirits, and increases during aging. I routinely test for it and can assure you that it increases "in the bottle"...

(BTW, welcome!! Please be assured that I don't mean to "slam" a new member, just trying to correct misconceptions.)

[minime]

Ethyl acetate is one of the most important compounds (especially in regard to aroma) in Bourbon and most other spirits, and increases during aging. I routinely test for it and can assure you that it increases "in the bottle"...

Does that apply to neutral in the 95+ range also?

[goose eye]

yup brandy will age in glass or ss round here



so im tole

[The Chemist]

Ethyl acetate is one of the most important compounds (especially in regard to aroma) in Bourbon and most other spirits, and increases during aging. I routinely test for it and can assure you that it increases "in the bottle"...

Does that apply to neutral in the 95+ range also?

Not so much. The whole idea of that "range" is higher purity. Higher purity, less of anything else. It's also not going to do much good to "age" pure ethanol.

[Dnderhead]

Finely confirmed! Thank you. I had some (xxx white) that was many years old, and from memory was just as bad when opened as when put in.
glass. doing some research found X acid works with Y alcohol = Z ester. (if you look up esters you will see a big list) if part of this formula is
missing then it will not change much if any.( it is not the wood it is the acids in the wood?) ( also look up artafishel flavors)
I believe oak is used because of high acid content?. much of this "conversion" takes place in the first year or two. catalyst can be added
to speed this up but I'm not about to play with chemicals that I know little/nothing about.(nor any way of testing)


(I'm just an old hillbilly so what the hell do I know)

[Slow & Steady]

Ethyl acetate is one of the most important compounds (especially in regard to aroma) in Bourbon and most other spirits, and increases during aging. I routinely test for it and can assure you that it increases "in the bottle"...

That's interesting... can you refer me to some reading to clarify my misconception concerning the increases of Ethyl Acetate (EA) in the bottle. I have been lead to believe that EA comes across at (77.1 degrees C) just before Ethanol (78 degrees C) and that it can increase in the column during the distillation process and that is why some folks put baking soda in their low wines to reduce the EA altogether during the distillation process. I have never read that EA is a key flavor in bourbon and would be most interested in reading more about it.

Now concerning your low respect for the law... that is your business... but as most of the reading I have done on the subject over the years supports the barrel aging claims, and due to the shifting nature of information made by posting hobbyists. I think I will stick with my current beliefs concerning aging.

We will have to agree to disagree.