Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Sugar, and all about sugar washes. Where the primary ingredient is sugar, and other things are just used as nutrients.

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Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby Shine0n » Tue Dec 27, 2016 1:45 pm

I started today a wash that consists of the following
2 gallons feed grade molly
18 lbs dark brown sugar
1/2 cup rehydrated bakers yeast
Total volume is around 15 gallons


The hydrometer read 1.100 and from what I know that will be off a bit due to the unfermentables in the molly.

I loaded the molly and brown sugar in the fermenter then heated 6-7 gallon of h20. Once very hot not boiling I dumped into the fermenter and mixed thoroughly. Then I brought the water hose in and filled the rest with the jet setting. I feel that did the proper job with aerating, I then put some wash into a pot and slowly added the yeast stirring with a whisk untill no clumps were evident. It's still rehydrating as I type. I will add once it doubles in size

I'm hoping it will finish by next weekend so that I can use my time off to still.

Any comments are welcome good or bad
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby still_stirrin » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:11 pm

Shine0n wrote:...Any comments are welcome good or bad
OK, here comes...

Shine0n wrote:...I then put some wash into a pot and slowly added the yeast stirring with a whisk untill no clumps were evident. It's still rehydrating as I type...
You should rehydrate dry yeast with warm water only...not wash. The sugar in the wash can cause the yeast cells to rupture when the osmotic pressure squeezes the cell membrane. Until they're filled with water and the cell walls are once again moist, they are very fragile.

Shine0n wrote:...2 gallons feed grade molly...18 lbs dark brown sugar...around 15 gallons...hydrometer read 1.100..

Well, that's a lot of sugar. A gallon of molasses is roughly 12 lb. So, 2 gallons is 24-25 lb. plus 18 lb. dark sugar = 42-43 lb. in a 15 gallon ferment. That's approximately 2.8 lb./gallon...plenty of potential alcohol there.

Did you make a "yeast bomb"? I always do with raw (feed grade) molasses.
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby Shine0n » Tue Dec 27, 2016 2:22 pm

No I didn't do a yeast bomb, I don't have the things necessary for that. The molly said it 43% sugar so I hope I didn't over do it. The last one I did 4 gallons fancy and 8 lbs brown sugar and it went fine. I hope this is the case for this one
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby Shine0n » Tue Dec 27, 2016 5:38 pm

SS, do you mean total weight in a gallon or lbs of sugars?
If it were 12 total the sugars at 43% would do not be that much sugar that would mean less than or right at 10 lbs total sugar right?for 2 gal.

I put the aquarium aerator in for the night and will stop in the am.

The amount of yeast i put in the starter, whatever died would be consumed by the survivors right? Since they are cannibalistic. They tripled in size before I added them to the fermenter, I forgot to mention that it wasn't all wash it was half and half with h20. Sorry :oops:
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby cob » Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:07 pm

I looked up molly to see what kind of special feed grade molasses you were using.

I came up with several girls who use that name, and an illegal drug.
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby Oldvine Zin » Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:01 pm

cob wrote:I looked up molly to see what kind of special feed grade molasses you were using.

I came up with several girls who use that name, and an illegal drug.


LOL

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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby Oldvine Zin » Tue Dec 27, 2016 11:16 pm

still_stirrin wrote:You should rehydrate dry yeast with warm water only...not wash. The sugar in the wash can cause the yeast cells to rupture when the osmotic pressure squeezes the cell membrane. Until they're filled with water and the cell walls are once again moist, they are very fragile.


So at the winery that I work at we always rehydrate the yeast with the grape juice that they will be living in - seems to be a happy relationship, Ive been doing the same with all of my ferment's with no issues, Maybe we are killing off too many cells ???

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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby Shine0n » Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:26 am

The little fellas are doing their thing this am and looks good.
OVZ, I've been doing it the same way for quite some time myself and haven't encountered any problems as of yet.

Cob- funny stuff, I looked up molly this am and seen the same. I said molly one day at work referring to molasses and one guy said "I love molly" I don't think he was talking about molasses though. Lol
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby still_stirrin » Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:07 am

Oldvine Zin wrote:
still_stirrin wrote:You should rehydrate dry yeast with warm water only...not wash. The sugar in the wash can cause the yeast cells to rupture when the osmotic pressure squeezes the cell membrane. Until they're filled with water and the cell walls are once again moist, they are very fragile.
So at the winery that I work at we always rehydrate the yeast with the grape juice that they will be living in - seems to be a happy relationship, Ive been doing the same with all of my ferment's with no issues, Maybe we are killing off too many cells ???

OK, it has been working for you that way.....until it doesn't.

If the yeast is fresh, like the winery probably bought directly from the distributor in larger (fresher) volumes, then the yeast may be hearty enough to survive the damaging start. What instruction did the producer give to you to rehydrate their products? Did they give you a recipe which had sugars in it, and I'm talking about "rehydration", not "making a starter".

I know that the bakers yeast that I buy at the grocery has instructions to rehydrate 15 minutes is warm water (body temperature, ie-98*F). And brew sites will advise the same when using dry yeast.

If your method is working for the amount of yeast you're using, then great. All I'm suggesting is that if you pay attention to how you rehydrate the yeast, it may work BETTER.

One thing to note about yeast in fermentation is that they'll reproduce (called, "budding") until the optimum cell concentration is achieved. Healthy yeast in a healthy environment (proper nutrient and oxygen levels) will reach that point quicker and generate healthier yeast which perfoms its function better (less mutations and reduced bad fermentation byproducts).

Why wouldn't you at least try to make the environment better, especially since it is really easier to do, ie - using warm water instead of wash to rehydrate?
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby still_stirrin » Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:41 am

ShineOn, sorry for the "derailment" from your original subject, but the discussion on yeast somewhat evolved.

There is one more thing that comes up from time to time pertaining to using dry yeast, and that is that some "sprinkle it on top and stir it vigorously". I'm somewhat mixed on the value vs damage to this process, as stirring vigorously can introduce some air (oxygen and more) into the wort/must, goodness, although there are better ways to aerate as well.

But a violent stirring, especially with dry, brittle yeast cells can fracture and pulverize the cell structure. But the cell walls contain nutrients which are valuable for yeast when budding. It provides energy for regeneration of cell growth. So, you lose some...and in turn, you gain some.

However, if the yeast was outdated, that is, it has been sitting around too long (the packages are dated, just look for it), then you may find that your processes simply won't work and the ferment will not start properly, if at all.

A test for yeast viability is when you rehydrate (in warm water), does the yeast smell "bready", or somewhat "yeasty". Or does it smell "powdery", like dirt/dust? If it smells good, like bread, then its probably very healthy. If it smells like dust, without the fresh smells, then it is probably old and may not be healthy enough to pitch. If this is the case, try making a low gravity starter solution (1/4 to 1/2 liter @ 1.010-1.020) and put the rehydrated yeast into it, shaking it good at the onset. Let it start for 24 hours before pitching into your ferment, enough time to let the starter generate new cells. If its dead, you'll know it (no CO2 production and a dirty, dusty smelling starter), so don't waste time wondering if your ferment will work.

Get fresh yeast as soon as possible to pitch.
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby Shine0n » Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:22 pm

2016-11-28 09.30.55.jpg
SS, No worries about anything :thumbup:
I take all advice into consideration and have pretty thick skin.
For 99% of my washes I use bread yeast and use a pretty decent amount on each, I don't reuse the grains on the sf I just use new since so inexpensive so it's new yeast every time as well.
The rum this time is different than what I usually do, my normal rum would be 4 gal unsulphured fancy and 8 lbs dark brown sugar into around 18 gallon.
This was 2 gal feed grade and twice the brown sugar, if this doesn't turn out the way I want I'll just go back to my original rum. This one is slightly cheaper with feed grade and the sugar was on sale for 1.25 for 2 lbs so why not try right?
I didn't mention I run a 2" pot keg with a 7.5 gal thumper to a 40' 5/8" worm in a 40 gal cooling barrel. I plan on upgrading my thumper to full keg with a liebig this spring when the weather is nice. I've used this style setup for years and has done well! I still may use the 7.5 as a 2nd thumper for rums.
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby Oldvine Zin » Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:40 pm

still_stirrin wrote:
Why wouldn't you at least try to make the environment better, especially since it is really easier to do, ie - using warm water instead of wash to rehydrate?
ss


Well I'm here to learn so I'll try that next ferment..Thanks ss

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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby Shine0n » Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:51 am

Oldvine Zin wrote:
still_stirrin wrote:
Why wouldn't you at least try to make the environment better, especially since it is really easier to do, ie - using warm water instead of wash to rehydrate?
ss


Well I'm here to learn so I'll try that next ferment..Thanks ss

OVZ

I'm here to learn as well and may try that at some point,
But why stray away from a proven method of rehydrating? I've learned alot here from the old way I did things and have changed, I just don't see how water is a better method when your putting them into a sugary solution. When I use wash, they are being multiplied in the exact same wash that they will be introduced to and have already been adapted to that it so there is no shock factor.
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby Oldvine Zin » Thu Dec 29, 2016 7:31 am

Shine0n wrote:
But why stray away from a proven method of rehydrating? I've learned alot here from the old way I did things and have changed, I just don't see how water is a better method when your putting them into a sugary solution. When I use wash, they are being multiplied in the exact same wash that they will be introduced to and have already been adapted to that it so there is no shock factor.

That's our thoughts also but since this is my hobby I'm willing to experiment and try different methods, and maybe proved wrong?

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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby Shine0n » Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:22 am

OVZ, Very true!!! I'm not saying at all I won't try it because I didn't become a better than average stiller by not taking suggestions. Just wondering how it was better that's all, when I make bread I don't use alc. to prime my yeast lol

On topic though, the rum is running wild as of this morn, should be ready in a couple days and I'll start the New Year off with a good run!
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby rgreen2002 » Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:13 pm

Just another opinion but when I make a starter I use DME. So I am not really hydrating only. On the flip side I make a DME starter aroung 1.04 so it's not the 1.06-1.07 of the wash (OR higher with molly) so maybe a little stress is good but not too much...?

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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby Shine0n » Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:33 pm

I've always used half wash and half h20, it's pretty weak. It's never let me down but I'm willing to try anything once and if I don't like it I won't try again.

I'm only doing a single run with the pot/thumper so I'm hoping the flavor of the feed molasses is tamed a bit, the fancy had a great smell right from the start and the feed grade was quite harsh. If I'm not fond of it I will simply dilute it to 35% and use it in my Thumper for my next sf wash and have some rumsky. Win win
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby Truckinbutch » Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:26 pm

Shine0n wrote:I've always used half wash and half h20, it's pretty weak. It's never let me down but I'm willing to try anything once and if I don't like it I won't try again.

I'm only doing a single run with the pot/thumper so I'm hoping the flavor of the feed molasses is tamed a bit, the fancy had a great smell right from the start and the feed grade was quite harsh. If I'm not fond of it I will simply dilute it to 35% and use it in my Thumper for my next sf wash and have some rumsky. Win win
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby Shine0n » Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:12 am

Well, my aquarium heater went ape shit and heated up my wash to 136°f
That's a bummer! I'll let it cool down and take a reading to see where abouts it is.
This is a first for me now not sure what to do. Damn it man I was looking forward to this.
Oh well
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby ShineonCrazyDiamond » Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:17 pm

No worries. Just cool it back down and pitch new yeast. The old will be food for the next ones. :thumbup: Your good!
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby Shine0n » Sat Dec 31, 2016 3:24 pm

Shineon, that's exactly what I was hoping I could do. Once it cooled down some I tasted it and it was bitter, I'm not to sure it wasn't finished. I checked with hydrometer and said .020 but it was still pretty warm and Im lookin now for the conversion for temps.
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby Shine0n » Sun Jan 01, 2017 5:56 am

From the calculators I've done and with the temperature difference as it sits now is 10.01%
I'm sure the readings are off a bit due to the molasses, it is pretty bitter and has no hint of sweetness.
I'm just going to run it and see how it turns out. It may just turn out fine, we'll see tomorrow
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby ShineonCrazyDiamond » Sun Jan 01, 2017 6:23 am

Shine0n wrote:From the calculators I've done and with the temperature difference as it sits now is 10.01%
I'm sure the readings are off a bit due to the molasses, it is pretty bitter and has no hint of sweetness.
I'm just going to run it and see how it turns out. It may just turn out fine, we'll see tomorrow

Yeah, i didn't know the rest of the particulars, but was going to let you know that If you used feed grade molasses, 1.02 is probably done. Run away :thumbup:. Wish I had something to run today. Guess I'll just go make a stout to fill my keg with :roll: :sarcasm:

*Edit to say I scrolled my lazy ass down to read your original post. That sucker is done! Have fun!
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby rad14701 » Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:45 am

Might be a good idea to also check the pH before pitching new yeast... :idea:
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby Shine0n » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:05 am

I checked the gravity at the right temp last night and it's at 1.028, there is no hint of sweetness so Ima strip it some night this week and use what's left in the fermenter as nutes for the next rum wash with some dunder.

As this being my first with feed grade molly will I benefit from multiple strip and then a spirit run?

I love the bold flavor I got from the fancy, I'm not so sure this will be the same. I'm running with a thumper and will add the feints from my last sf to the thump and some water in hopes to help smooth/clean up the spirit.

In all the rum made with fancy molasses I did 1 slow (very slow) spirit run
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby Shine0n » Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:54 pm

Well the strip is complete and have now 2.5 gallons of low wines. I didn't have a large enough container to collect all at once so it's in 1 gal glass jugs, I'll combine it all together in a ss pot the measure abv so ill know if it need further cutting down or not.
I'm thinking of doing more feed grade ferments, stripping and do a final spirit run. It was not as funky as I figured it would be, actually quite good smell (very buttery) so I pleased with the outcome.
I'm going to continue to use this recipe for my rums and will also try 1 slow run to see if it needs not to be stripped. But for the next few untill I have enough low wines for a 12 gal spirit run I'll strip them.

Now I need to find a good source of brown sugar and another ts to get the molly every other time so not to go there all the time.
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby Shine0n » Sat Jan 14, 2017 8:53 am

Well hells bells, my feed store does not have any more molly and I can't find any dark brown sugar. I need to find a constant supply of both without going over the web, I don't know about anyone else but the less the gooberment sees me buying a shit ton of sugar and what not the better!
I've aired the strip run out for 2 days and now it smells like warm melted sweet butter with molasses.

Untill I find my supply of goodies I'll rest on it for a while, I want to keep on going with rum since this recipe seems to be awesome and I'm sure if I did a 1 run process it would be great as well.

For now I'm going to use a bit of the dunder (20%) and the trub in the fermenter and mix up a batch of sweet feed then once I get the rum goodies I'll go back on that.

I'm going to mix a quart of sf and one of this rum and experiment with it, I'll keep on posting in this here thread for notes just in case it's worth repeating.
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Re: Feed grade molly and brown sugar wash

Postby Shine0n » Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:14 pm

Well today I'm running a spirit run of sf with the low wines of the rum and some dunder in the thumper. I kept about 1.5 quart of the hearts of the rum to play with at 145 proof.
I'm at 1.5 gallon and still holding abv at 155 and for now no sign of tails. I'm collecting in pint jars and running a bit faster than usual but not a strip. The flavor is good but not that warm sweet butter of the rum strip.

I've put about 20% dunder in the fermenter for the next rum and will save all dunder from here on out for my pit and future rums, I think I'll use this backset from the thumper in my next sf wash as well.
I have no idea on how much to expect from this run but looks like 2-2.5 gallons then collect to 20% for the feints jug.
I'll keep on posting in this thread on future rums I do to keep notes and progress. As for now I see no change happening with this recipe only how I decide to still it.
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