Maple spirit and dunder

Sugar, and all about sugar washes. Where the primary ingredient is sugar, and other things are just used as nutrients.

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Chuckyboilo
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Maple spirit and dunder

Post by Chuckyboilo »

Hi to all,

I've been toying around with some all maple wash. I've seen a few discussions on "hybrid rhums" but nothing on pure maple spirits.

Here is the base concept:
- water
- grade A dark robust maple syrup
- Ec-1118 Yeast

Starting brix: 20
Ending Brix: 08 (6.83% ABV)
PH: unknown... I bought a new PH meter since.

Total volume: 2 litre
I'm using a simple 2.5l Alembic column still I use for tests. I was unable to monitor ABV since I can't add a parrot to my small still. I wont got to my big still until I have proof of concept.

I first had a hard time with fermentation. Probably not enough yeast. So I re-pitched (with fermaid K) and got a very vigorous fermentation. It finally took more than 3 weeks to get to 08 brix.

The Run:
Most of the yeast had caked at the bottom of my fermenting jars. And they had cleared up pretty well after 24 hours in my fridge. So I might of had a little bit of yeast in the pot. I separated my yield in small mason jars. Got a total of 10 of these filled half way. Don't know total yield volume and ABV yet. (I'm suspecting around 60% abv).

I started collecting at 70-80c and stopped at around 96c.

Some concerns:
- my first 5 jars smelled of "sugarwash" heads (don't know much about sugar washes but I smelled a few). Which is not what I was expecting. My number 6 to 9 had a very pleasing aroma and taste. My number 10 was definitely tails. But still pretty good. So I could of maybe gone further (from what I read it's sometimes good to go deep into the tails when producing rum).

- I might of went hard on the heat. The still heated up very quickly and when straight to 90c and stayed there for quite a while. But I,m concern with the speed of the heat up and the adverse effect this might have on the taste (scorching of lees etc...).

Questions:

- Should I maybe consider using "dunder". I kept the backset that I immediately put in my fridge. I heard that some people "mature" their dunder. In normal conditions can this backset be kept at 20-21c for a while?
- Also, wondering if I should skip the Fermaid K.
- Should I consider fermenting at higher temps for a better wash yield? I don't mind distilling for taste rather than yield. I might even try to do this with beer yeast at some point.
- Should I be patient and see what comes out of my 3-5 jars after a few weeks of "resting"?

I'm thinking pushing this a bit further (at some point) and getting some "transformation" or "cooking" syrup. This is most likely a dark and very robust syrup used in flavoring and cooking with maple. It's also cheaper.

Any insight would be great!

Thanks!
Chucky B.
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by cuginosgrizzo »

Hi Chucky,

some suggestions:

I. 20 brix in a little on the high side, you should dilute a little more and stay below 10% potential ABV in order not to stress your yeast
II. EC-1118 is a wine yeast and it gives low esters. You would have better results with bakers yeast and high temp fermentation. More esters for your maple rum
III. you are probably lacking nutrients, as you saw yourself. So don't skip the fermaid step but do a "Yeast Bomb" to help your fermentation. See Pugi Rum in T&T
IV. you talk about fermentig jars. Is this because you had you 2L wash split in many jars? better put them together next time to have better results (more thermal capacity and resistance to infections)
V. I wouldn't worry to clear your wash before running. I, as many here, never cleared a wash and never had problems.
VI. DO NOT, ever, try to run a potstill with temperature. Remove the thermometer from the pot still and use it when you cook your meat.
VII. I cannot answer your dunder question, I use backset both for Rum and form whisky (sour mash) but never infected like a good dunder should be. You have to decide for yourself how much funk you want in your maple rum. If you use mature dunder, it is better to add it once fermentation has started and it is going well.
VIII. For sure your product will benefit some rest. All alcohol does, and sugar washes more then cereal mashes.

hope this helps!
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by Pikey »

Hi Chucky, Your ferment would probably have taken off just with the addition of teh fermaid k - That wash Needed nutrient and probsbly acid.

I ferment "Bacardi (ish)" rum washes on ec 1118 with excellent results and starting sugars to reach 12% ish. The "Bakers yeast" difference of opinion is something about which you can make your own mind up later.

Rum has many different types and flavours. I think to consider "rum" as a single drink may not be really helpful.

SO how does Yours taste ?
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by Chuckyboilo »

cuginosgrizzo wrote:Hi Chucky,

some suggestions:

I. 20 brix in a little on the high side, you should dilute a little more and stay below 10% potential ABV in order not to stress your yeast
II. EC-1118 is a wine yeast and it gives low esters. You would have better results with bakers yeast and high temp fermentation. More esters for your maple rum
III. you are probably lacking nutrients, as you saw yourself. So don't skip the fermaid step but do a "Yeast Bomb" to help your fermentation. See Pugi Rum in T&T
IV. you talk about fermentig jars. Is this because you had you 2L wash split in many jars? better put them together next time to have better results (more thermal capacity and resistance to infections)
V. I wouldn't worry to clear your wash before running. I, as many here, never cleared a wash and never had problems.
VI. DO NOT, ever, try to run a potstill with temperature. Remove the thermometer from the pot still and use it when you cook your meat.
VII. I cannot answer your dunder question, I use backset both for Rum and form whisky (sour mash) but never infected like a good dunder should be. You have to decide for yourself how much funk you want in your maple rum. If you use mature dunder, it is better to add it once fermentation has started and it is going well.
VIII. For sure your product will benefit some rest. All alcohol does, and sugar washes more then cereal mashes.

hope this helps!
Thanks for the pointers cuginosgrizzo!

And yes you caught me... I did ferment in 2 large mason jars. But I have access to 4 litre jars that I'll use to do 2 runs.
The bakers yeast seems interesting. Plain old fleischman yeast (that the supermarket kind in Canada)?. Can that tolerate high ABVs?
Why not use the thermometer? It's inconsistent in a pot still? I can always distill by taste. It's no problem. But I'll be pretty blind without a parrot and a hydrometer.
I think I'll try the dunder... It seems to make sense to do so...

Also, what would be a practical way to keep the wash at 23c? It's winter here in Canada. Quite cold... I'm sure my GF would be happy if I'd raise the house to 23c. But I wouldn't sleep well! :shock:

Thanks again for the help.
Last edited by Chuckyboilo on Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by Chuckyboilo »

Pikey wrote:Hi Chucky, Your ferment would probably have taken off just with the addition of teh fermaid k - That wash Needed nutrient and probsbly acid.

I ferment "Bacardi (ish)" rum washes on ec 1118 with excellent results and starting sugars to reach 12% ish. The "Bakers yeast" difference of opinion is something about which you can make your own mind up later.

Rum has many different types and flavours. I think to consider "rum" as a single drink may not be really helpful.

SO how does Yours taste ?
Thanks Pikey!

I'll have my PHmeter for my next run. What is a good target PH 4.8?

About yeast: I'd be curious to see what I could do with Hefeweizen yeast...

My "late" jars smell like sweet canadian whisky, Pretty special stuff. It all tastes pretty good. At bit more harsh in the first few jars. Would definitely be better with some oak and time.

Thanks again!
Chucky B.
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by cuginosgrizzo »

Chuckyboilo wrote: The bakers yeast seems interesting. Plain old fleischman yeast (that the supermarket kind in Canada)?. Can that tolerate high ABVs?
Yes that's ok. Any Bakers yeast actually. As for alcohol tolerance, again, you should try to stay on the lower side to avoid stressing too much the yeast. Most whiskey mashes are around 6% to 8%, with sugar/maple you can go higher. I would not go over 10%, Pikey suggests 12%. Just do not go over that, and the yeast will tolerate it. If you want you can try both and see what you prefer, if you get any difference.

Chuckyboilo wrote: Why not use the thermometer? It's inconsistent in a pot still? I can always distill by taste. It's no problem. But I'll be pretty blind without a parrot and a hydrometer.
This is a very basic question you should have answered yourself in the course of your reading in the mandatory sections of the forum. Potstills cannot be driven by temperature, because boiling temp depends on the ABV of the wash, the type of the wash, the condition of the run and so on. Of course if you run multiple time the very same wash, fermented in the very same way, you'll get more consistent values, but it is pointless. This is how you should run a pot: you heat the pot until it produces the first drops then turn heat down. You let it drip through the foreheads, then turn heat up a little at a time until you get a solid stream (pencil lead size). You turn it up again when the stream diminishes, regulating cooling water at the same time. Collect in small jars and do cuts by smell and taste, proofing down a small sample. No need for a thermometer.

You don't need a parrot, but definitely you need a hydrometer (get two, they are suicidal) and a proofing vial. You sort of need it to decide when to stop producing and you definitely need it to proof you liquor when bottling.
Chuckyboilo wrote: Also, what would be a practical way to keep the wash at 23c? It's winter here in Canada. Quite cold... I'm sure my GF would be happy if I'd raise the house to 23c. But I wouldn't sleep well! :shock:
There are many ways. I do it three ways: for my Rum I just ferment in an open fermentor covered with a blanket, so I just stick and acquarium heater inside the wash. For whiskey fermented on the grain the heater inside would scorch the solids, so I use a larger pot filled with water and submerge the fermentor in the water, and put the heater in the water, with a small pump to circulate the water around the fermentor. For beers I just use a spare room where I can crank up the heating. Others put their fermentors in a small closet with a 100W light bulb.
If you user Bakers yeast you can and should go over 23C. I regulate the heater to 27C. That yeast likes higher temps, up to 30C, and it provides good results (and it finishes faster).

A final consideration: you get what you get, but I find that the usual yield of aging proof spirit is between 1/20th to 1/10th of the starting wash volume. So from 4 liter washes you should expect between 200ml and 400ml of product. A lot of work for a little result. Once you'll start falling down the hole you'll want to upgrade to a larger equipment!

good luck!
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by Pikey »

cuginosgrizzo wrote:
Chuckyboilo wrote: The bakers yeast seems interesting. Plain old fleischman yeast (that the supermarket kind in Canada)?. Can that tolerate high ABVs?
Yes that's ok. Any Bakers yeast actually. As for alcohol tolerance, again, you should try to stay on the lower side to avoid stressing too much the yeast. Most whiskey mashes are around 6% to 8%, with sugar/maple you can go higher. I would not go over 10%, Pikey suggests 12%. Just do not go over that, and the yeast will tolerate it. If you want you can try both and see what you prefer, if you get any difference.
........
I think ec 1118 will be fine at 12%. I don't know baker's yeast but my reading leads me to believe that 12% would be over stressing it and it seems that it is known for producing undesirable flavours when stressed. It does take quite a long ferment to reach dryness from a 12% potential, so if you're in a hurry go lower 8)
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by Pikey »

Chuckyboilo wrote:
Pikey wrote:Hi Chucky, Your ferment would probably have taken off just with the addition of teh fermaid k - That wash Needed nutrient and probsbly acid.

........

SO how does Yours taste ?
Thanks Pikey!

I'll have my PHmeter for my next run. What is a good target PH 4.8?

About yeast: I'd be curious to see what I could do with Hefeweizen yeast...

My "late" jars smell like sweet canadian whisky, Pretty special stuff. It all tastes pretty good. At bit more harsh in the first few jars. Would definitely be better with some oak and time.

Thanks again!
It sounds as though you like it :thumbup:

I have a ph meter which I bought to do sour mash and it worked fine at the recommended phs. Generally I just look at the ingredients Plum for example would get acid, grape, apple, or anything citrus would not. I don't know for a fact that maple is acid deficient but it "feels" like it would be. If I get that "feeling" I'd chuck in a couple of teaspoons of citric acid to a 25 litre wash. Yeast likes an acidic wash but I don't think it matters that much just How acidic. I'd say if you want to measure it, 4.8 or a little either way would be fine [edit - I wouldn't be bothered even in the 5-6 range] . Be careful though if you are doing anything which requires starch conversion, because I think the enzymes are not acid tolerant and they are more important than the yeast - at least until they've done their work !
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by Chuckyboilo »

Thanks again for all the help!

And yes sorry about the lack of knowledge about pot stills. I did read that but that was quite awhile before i put my hands on a still. And that knowledge must of escaped from my brain. We (me and 2 friends) actually have a bigger setup (see attached picture) that we use. I'm used to how that reacts more than my 2.5L "test" still. I'm trying this recipe to get a proof of concept. Maple syrup is expensive. And, I usually distill gins with GNS my cousin is the fermentation guy. But it's alwasy fun to experiment.

Questions for all:

I think I'll do another batch with the EC1118. @pikey: do you ferment "hot" with the EC1118? I've noticed that it can go up to 25c.
Also, do you do stripping runs? Or you cut off the mash?

Thanks!
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by dukethebeagle120 »

we own a sugar bush and have quite alot of d-grade syrup.
i have done alot of syrup shine and can tell you keep ur starting gravity low say 5%or so
syrup shine is like a sugar wash and is snappy after distillation
aging is essential
i find a lower starting abv makes for a less harsh product.
also adjusting ph greatly speeds up ferment
without it,it takes forever but i feel makes a smoother finish product.
also pot stilling or reflux don"t matter cause the taste of syrup wears off fast.
ur better to make small batches and drink as you go for max flavor
just my 2 cents
its better to think like a fool but keep your mouth shut,then to open ur mouth and have it confirmed
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by Pikey »

Hellfire Chucky :shock:

With a setup like that - what you askin us for ? :lol: 8)

I first started with 1118 because of it's low end temperature tolerance but I have done runs with it and an aquarium heater set to 23 C - it worked fine. I didn't notice any flavour difference. I run a 1" copper column 40" to the takeoff and I do 1.5 runs so I throw the fores then take the heads, hearts and tails. I take the hearts and put back in the pot with the next run, whatever I don't use for blending. Often that is all teh heads and all the tails.
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by Chuckyboilo »

dukethebeagle120 wrote:we own a sugar bush and have quite alot of d-grade syrup.
i have done alot of syrup shine and can tell you keep ur starting gravity low say 5%or so
syrup shine is like a sugar wash and is snappy after distillation
aging is essential
i find a lower starting abv makes for a less harsh product.
also adjusting ph greatly speeds up ferment
without it,it takes forever but i feel makes a smoother finish product.
also pot stilling or reflux don"t matter cause the taste of syrup wears off fast.
ur better to make small batches and drink as you go for max flavor
just my 2 cents
Thanks for the extra input!! So you say that lower PH takes less time. But a higher PH will make a smoother product?

What about doing a "sour mash" style fermentation. Have you ever tried?
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by Chuckyboilo »

Pikey wrote:Hellfire Chucky :shock:

With a setup like that - what you askin us for ? :lol: 8)

I first started with 1118 because of it's low end temperature tolerance but I have done runs with it and an aquarium heater set to 23 C - it worked fine. I didn't notice any flavour difference. I run a 1" copper column 40" to the takeoff and I do 1.5 runs so I throw the fores then take the heads, hearts and tails. I take the hearts and put back in the pot with the next run, whatever I don't use for blending. Often that is all teh heads and all the tails.
Thanks Pikey... We like to do things a bit over the top. We're all very busy so we needed somehting that could be run at the flick of a switch. Automation makes it easier on our schedules. And I like data... So I needed to see numbers on screens to get a sense of what we we're doing. But my cousin is the one who's playing around with the "big" setup. I mostly do gin runs at home... We have a dream of opening our own distillery.

Good to know about the yeast. I'll do a few more runs at 21c while I wait for an aquarium heater.

Cheers and thanks for all the info!
Chucky B.
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by dukethebeagle120 »

Chuckyboilo wrote:
dukethebeagle120 wrote:we own a sugar bush and have quite alot of d-grade syrup.
i have done alot of syrup shine and can tell you keep ur starting gravity low say 5%or so
syrup shine is like a sugar wash and is snappy after distillation
aging is essential
i find a lower starting abv makes for a less harsh product.
also adjusting ph greatly speeds up ferment
without it,it takes forever but i feel makes a smoother finish product.
also pot stilling or reflux don"t matter cause the taste of syrup wears off fast.
ur better to make small batches and drink as you go for max flavor
just my 2 cents
Thanks for the extra input!! So you say that lower PH takes less time. But a higher PH will make a smoother product?

What about doing a "sour mash" style fermentation. Have you ever tried?
the first ever batch i did was 5 gallons of d-grade in 40 or so gallons of water
mixed it up and pitched 5-6 tblsps of red star bakers yeast.
no ph adjust or nutrients.
jeez,it took a month to finish
recently i did a batch and added citric acid.
fermented out and yes i did keep the dunder.
did another batch and added the dunder.
did not see a huge difference in ferment time.
took about 10 days
maybe was abit wormer in the house.
who knows.
its not my favorite shine though
much prefer corn likker.
maple shine is like a young rum even after tripple distillation.
need any help give me a shout
its better to think like a fool but keep your mouth shut,then to open ur mouth and have it confirmed
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by Chuckyboilo »

Thanks dukethebeagle120!!! I have allot to try! Cheers
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by Chuckyboilo »

Hi again to all,

I'm fermenting a new batch. Seems to be well on its way!

I was reading about nutrients... I'm using fermaid-k at this moment. Should I consider also adding DAP?

Thanks!!
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by dukethebeagle120 »

just some feedback.i have had some syrup shine resting for about three months now.
it has smoothed out alot.
this stuff needs to sit like rum does.
it is clear,nothing added
its better to think like a fool but keep your mouth shut,then to open ur mouth and have it confirmed
Chuckyboilo
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by Chuckyboilo »

dukethebeagle120 wrote:just some feedback.i have had some syrup shine resting for about three months now.
it has smoothed out alot.
this stuff needs to sit like rum does.
it is clear,nothing added

Thanks for the feedback. I'm just about to start my third batch. So far so good!
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by Chuckyboilo »

Hi to all,

I'm doing another rum with Lallemand distilamax RM. It's essentially a Rum Yeast.

Il also added DAP and Distilavite nutrients. So the yeast should be pretty happy. I'm at 2 weeks of fermentation from 16brix. I'm now at 6 brix and it seems to be stalled. It's still bubbling a little bit and I don't mind having some residual sugars also.

Apart from the yeast tolerance to alcohol, what can cause a fermentation to stop before reaching complete dryness? Or will it take just more time to completetely eat the sugar.

My last run with EC118 went down to 3 brix (from 10) in 2 weeks.

Maybe it's pointless to go this high? I was under the impression that distillers yeast could handle more alcohol.

Thanks!
Chucky B.
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by Pikey »

Hi,

I know nothing about "brix" except it is not quite a "measure of sugar" (not sure where I got that from either !) - We generally use "SG" - (Specific Gravity) on here

However 16 brix - should give you 8.8% abv according to this https://www.brewersfriend.com/brix-converter/ There's not many yeasts can't cope with 8.8 ! [Edit - I aim for 12% ish in sugar washes - including rum]

PH can be a bit of an issue sometimes - I'd say "Chuck some citric acid in" - Others will say "chuck some oyster shell in" - These two have opposite effects, so maybe measure the ph either with a meter, or with "PH Papers".

Temperature can stop a ferment if it gets too low and too high it can kill the yeast.

[ Same Edit -Other poss - is residual non - fermentables in your molasses (Maple juice ?) but if it ran down to 2 bricks with ec1118 - can't see why not with this one]
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by dukethebeagle120 »

maple spirit and rum run the same.
1.000 or less i`ve never had.
usually dies out around 1.020 or so
i treat it like rum
really it is a rum using maple instead of molasses
its better to think like a fool but keep your mouth shut,then to open ur mouth and have it confirmed
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by Chuckyboilo »

It seems like my yeast might like hotter temps. Probably why it's taking it's time!

I'll give it a little bit more time!

Thanks again for the infos!
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Re: Maple spirit and dunder

Post by dukethebeagle120 »

u are right on the money
its better to think like a fool but keep your mouth shut,then to open ur mouth and have it confirmed
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