Molasses

Sugar, and all about sugar washes. Where the primary ingredient is sugar, and other things are just used as nutrients.

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Re: Molasses

Post by DAD300 » Sat Mar 26, 2016 12:14 pm

I won't say there is nothing for enzymes to convert, but very little to nothing.
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Re: Molasses

Post by Drunken Unicorn » Thu Aug 04, 2016 7:25 am

I figure I'd throw some of my Molasses experience in here.

Getting molasses that isn't feed store molasses in bulk can be tricky (expensive). I used to have access to a restaurant supply store and got a good amount of molasses from them. It was about $8 a gallon. After I lost access to them, I start to contact bakery supply companies. I got one to sell me 15 gallons in 5 gallon pails. The price was similar to the restaurant depot. They weren't used to dealing in quantities that small and it took some effort on their part. It was pretty much a one time deal.

A local bakery actually agreed to order molasses for me, but I didn't know them that well and didn't want a lot of questions. So, in the end, I went with Webstaurant. I've used them for about the last year or more. I've made some tasty rums with either their baking or blackstrap molasses.

I haven't had much luck with the dried molasses. The taste wasn't great and it doesn't like to ferment out. To be fair, I used it when I was fairly new to distilling. I pulled out the last box of the dried molasses and started a ferment about 6 months ago. Threw some 2 year old dunder in there to see if it could do something. I may run it later this month for kicks if I have the time.

Hopefully that was somewhat useful,

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Re: Molasses

Post by Hilltop » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:53 pm

The Evolved habitats brand sold to deer hunters in the feed stores with the buck on the front of the jug also contains proponic acid. What's the final verdict on this preservative? As I just poured bout 4 cups in a 15 gallon corn wash. My feed store guy told me it was pure. I should have read the label myself.
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Re: Molasses

Post by rgreen2002 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:47 am

Hilltop...
I have had quite a go with the Evolved habits molasses over the years (see http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=58570 for just one of my many EH adventures). Long story short it's fine to use.

That said... I'm never really sure why people in the US who can't find good molasses just don't order directly from Golden Barrel...? https://www.goldenbarrel.com/product-category/bulk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow (I'm sure there could be some worry about "tracking" your sales but that's another topic...)

A gallon from GB will cost about the same as the Evolved Habits and it's food grade! ( https://www.goldenbarrel.com/product/go ... -molasses/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow )

The have food grade fancy and Blackstrap at good prices and deliver. They'll sell you 16 oz to bulk... and deliver (not free though :( ) I've never had a problem with them
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Re: Molasses

Post by still_stirrin » Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:53 am

Hilltop wrote:...What's the final verdict on this preservative?..I should have read the label myself.
I boiled mine for 10 minutes, then chilled it and ran it off into the fermenter. I had no problems with the proprionic acid. I used a yeast bomb and it fermented fast...4 days and done!

One thing, the deer lick molasses has a very strong flavor. I used it without any other sugars. Ultimately, I had to rerun my rum through the still 3 times to get the flavor where I could drink it. But, YMMV.
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Re: Molasses

Post by Pikey » Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:13 am

still_stirrin wrote:
Hilltop wrote:...What's the final verdict on this preservative?..I should have read the label myself.
I boiled mine for 10 minutes, then chilled it and ran it off into the fermenter. I had no problems with the proprionic acid. I used a yeast bomb and it fermented fast...4 days and done!

One thing, the deer lick molasses has a very strong flavor. I used it without any other sugars. Ultimately, I had to rerun my rum through the still 3 times to get the flavor where I could drink it. But, YMMV.
ss
What did it taste like "superstrong" SS - really strong flavoured rum - or just molasses ?

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Re: Molasses

Post by still_stirrin » Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:30 am

Pikey wrote:
still_stirrin wrote:...I had to rerun my rum through the still 3 times to get the flavor where I could drink it...
What did it taste like "superstrong" SS - really strong flavoured rum - or just molasses ?
It had a very strong rum flavor, with a lot of the "oil-like" taste. It was not delicate, sweet or alcoholic tasting, even when I distilled it up to 151 proof. Now I use 50/50 deer lick molly and sugar to get the fermentables. The molly flavor is still big, but manageable with processing. The deer lick molasses must have a lot of resins in it because it has a sheen when racked to the boiler.

I have a cousin who dairy farms and he feeds his milk cows a rich grain mixture to which he adds feed molasses. It is also quite black and pastey with a strong blackstrap flavor. I don't know the brix content, but I'd guess it's at least 80-90 brix. He gets it from the local CO-OP by the pound (2500 lb. at a time). I want to try it as well. But without doubt I'll have to buffer it down with sugar. A 5-gallon bucket (50-60 lb.) would work for me... :wink:

I imagine the food grade molasses has most of the raw qualities refined out of it, unlike the feed grade stuff. And store bought is too expensive to justify yet.
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Re: Molasses

Post by Pikey » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:34 am

Thanks for that SS - I'm nicking your reply for my "on me own" thread - hope you don't mind :wink:

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Re: Molasses

Post by Hilltop » Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:28 pm

Pikey wrote:
still_stirrin wrote:
Hilltop wrote:...What's the final verdict on this preservative?..I should have read the label myself.
I boiled mine for 10 minutes, then chilled it and ran it off into the fermenter. I had no problems with the proprionic acid. I used a yeast bomb and it fermented fast...4 days and done!

One thing, the deer lick molasses has a very strong flavor. I used it without any other sugars. Ultimately, I had to rerun my rum through the still 3 times to get the flavor where I could drink it. But, YMMV.
ss
What did it taste like "superstrong" SS - really strong flavoured rum - or just molasses ?
Don't know yet, I made a 15 gallon wash with 21 pounds cracked corn, 1 box Banana all grain cereal 18 pounds sugar, and 4 cups molasses. I cooked my corn to 165 degrees for 30 minutes and poured my sugar in to invert itand let it cool Once it hit 95 I put a yeast bomb containing two packs yeast and then added two more packs on top and stirred. I added the molasses at the end I did not cook it. It's bubbling away today, but nothing exceptional.

Not my week for sure, I'm running off some corn wash now that's weak. All these rainy days are affecting the temp too much I think, it's up and down like a dangum yo yo!
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Re: Molasses

Post by Hilltop » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:00 pm

rgreen2002 wrote:Hilltop...
I have had quite a go with the Evolved habits molasses over the years (see http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =3&t=58570 for just one of my many EH adventures). Long story short it's fine to use.

That said... I'm never really sure why people in the US who can't find good molasses just don't order directly from Golden Barrel...? https://www.goldenbarrel.com/product-category/bulk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow (I'm sure there could be some worry about "tracking" your sales but that's another topic...)

A gallon from GB will cost about the same as the Evolved Habits and it's food grade! ( https://www.goldenbarrel.com/product/go ... -molasses/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow )

The have food grade fancy and Blackstrap at good prices and deliver. They'll sell you 16 oz to bulk... and deliver (not free though :( ) I've never had a problem with them
Yeah I was just experimenting,. Ya know, that same preservative is in some feed store scratch corn. Some of that sweet feed has a list of stuff long as the Chickasawhay River bridge.

Here's a rookie question, 4 cups of molasses is equivalent to how much sugar?

I wanted to see what flavors a little molasses imparted in a corn sugar wash.I hope next year to grow my own corn, Im clearing bout 5 acres just for that purpose.
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Re: Molasses

Post by Pikey » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:49 pm

Hilltop wrote:
.........Here's a rookie question, 4 cups of molasses is equivalent to how much sugar?....................
- Bout a cup an 3/4 ths xxxxx :esmile:

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Re: Molasses

Post by rgreen2002 » Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:57 pm

I have to agree with SS... that Evolved Habits molly is some powerful shi.... stuff. I aged it for 6 months on wood and in the bottle for another 6 months and it's STILL as strong as the day it came out of the pipe!

It's a smooth drink though... you reminded me to have some just now!! :mrgreen:

I never boiled the Evolved habits and it did ferment a little slower than when I run food grade stuff but I have no complaints...
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Re: Molasses

Post by Hilltop » Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:07 am

The 15 gallon mash that's outside in the shed, somehow or other the top was off laying next to it. Surely I didn't leave it off but anyhow it was barely bubbling I put the top back on the fermenter and hope it restarts. The 15 gallon mash inside is bubbling away happily at 80 degrees. I do notice just 4 cups of molasses definitely changes the color of a sugar corn wash. It tastes wonderful I hope it passes through during distillation.

Reading the other poster comments about a strong flavor I hope I didn't use too much molasses. The only thing I notice different is my normal aggressive corn wash bubbling ferment seems slower when molasses is added. Maybe bread yeast is not as good for molasses, not sure.
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Re: Molasses

Post by still_stirrin » Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:42 am

Hilltop wrote:The 15 gallon mash...just 4 cups of molasses...I hope I didn't use too much molasses. The only thing...Maybe bread yeast is not as good for molasses, not sure.
Four cups of molasses in a 15 gallon wash is nothing. If it adds color, you're lucky. Will it be enough to add flavor to the distillate...probably not. Besides, what you're really making is a corn/sugar wash...given your recipe. As for your mash (with corn meal), I don't see any enzymes for saccharification of the starches in the corn. You didn't add any malted barley or liquid enzymes? Your fermentables amounted to the 18 lb. sugar you added plus the pound or so of molasses. The cereal doesn't add fermentables and you probably didn't get much from the corn...at 165*F you used too low of gelatinization temperature, yet too high for enzyme activity.

It sounds like you need to head over to the Tried & True recipe forum and follow one of those recipes. You just might have better luck with your product.

Here's something to think about...I used a gallon of the deer lick molasses per 5 gallons of ferment for a rum. Sure, maybe it is a bit much, perhaps better would be 2 gallons ($20 USD) per 15 gallons of ferment. And then, if you need more fermentables, add some sugar (if required). But I don't think you'll need anything more really to get a very big molasses flavor (with deer lick molases, at least).

But the keynote here is.....you need to use a yeast bomb (see Pugi's recipe for the how-to), with the necessary nutrients to kick off the fermentation. And yes, bread yeast will work just fine for a molasses ferment.
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Re: Molasses

Post by Hilltop » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:06 pm

Quote " I cooked my corn to 165 degrees for 30 minutes and poured my sugar in to invert it and let it cool Once it hit 95 I put a yeast bomb containing two packs yeast and then added two more packs on top and stirred. I added the molasses at the end, I did not cook it. " End quote

As you see I did use a yeast bomb and I forgot to mention I added tomato paste and doubled the yeast right after i posted. The one the lid came off that was outside in the shed really slowed up it's bubbling but barely, the one inside is rolling and I can really smell the alcohol.

The recipe is the same we have always used. Half grain half sugar which we sour mash. The molasses was just an experiment. Sometimes we don't cook the grain. Using corn scratch by itself more often than not i dont cook it. On this batch the one outside was not, the one inside was cooked but not boiled to 165 then cooled at room temp overnight, at 95 the yeast bomb was pitched.

I'm itching to cook it as the batch inside really has a potent alcohol smell going. The one outside not so much, not sure what the top being left off on the second day did but I'm fixing to hit it with distillers yeast tomorrow and see if I can get it moving.

Both batches are holding steady at 80 degrees. I ordered some dady yeast that should be here tomorrow and something I have never used " hydrometer"

That little bit of molasses put a nice flavor touch in the usual corn sugar wash. I hope it passes through distillation, but your probably right SS. I've read where some say it's quite strong so I'm just starting small to figure out how much is enough.

Are you cooking the molasses?
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Re: Molasses

Post by Shine0n » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:34 pm

A yeast bomb is completely unnecessary for a rum wash.

I use evolved habitat moll at 2 gall and 16-18 lbs dark brown sugar for a 15 gal wash.
I take .5 quart wash and .5 quart warm water and whisk in 1/2 cup of bread yeast.

it triples in size in 30 minutes at room temp.
Pitch and close!!!

Yeast bomb my ass! you also don't need to add any nutes to a rum wash as the moll has all required to get the job done.

Possibly a ph buffer to stop a crash but unless you're fermenting 55 gal I don't think it's necessary.

just my .02 but I'm yet to have a rum wash fail or stall because of no nutes or not having done a "yeast bomb"

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Re: Molasses

Post by Hilltop » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:16 pm

What's it tasting like shine on? That's alot of brown sugar, I hope your not buying those little one pound bags at the grocery store! Lol!
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Re: Molasses

Post by Shine0n » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:18 am

It makes a very nice flavorful rum :thumbup:

the moll is only 43% sugar and I'm sure it's not all fermentables so in actuality there's less than 30 lbs to the wash total volume.

sometimes I buy the small ones. lol (2lbs) each

at least I know the exact lbs going in as I don't own a scale.
I rarely buy stuff off the Web but I do hit up different stores from time to time when it's on sale for 1$ for a 2 lb bag.

sorry if I sounded like an ass hole in the other post but it gets tiring seeing posts that say to do unnecessary steps. expecially for a simple rum wash which has everything it needs minus a pinch of Epsom salt which is not that crucial for small ferments when fermented above 90f as it will fement dry in 3-4 days.

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Re: Molasses

Post by der wo » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:58 am

I add nutes to every ferment. The nutrients in fertilizers or yeast nutrients are more easy consumable for the yeast than the nutes from molli grain or fruit.
It's not the question if it's "needed". And I cannot prove that it's "better". It's the question what you have tried and experienced and what you thought what consequences you should draw. If those consequences would mean a huge effort, perhaps I would do a side by side experiment. But all I have to do is to pitch a small bit of the large fertilizer bag into the fermenter.

And I always prepare the yeast with warm water and then feed it a bit. Also not much work.
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Re: Molasses

Post by Shine0n » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:54 am

Feed grade moll to food grade is night and day in comparison in how much is refined.
I looked up in golden barrel, they have nutrients list on all their products and from experience and literature I see no need on a molasses wash.

on a sugar or primarily sugar wash which are susceptible
to crashes and have lack of nutes I can see it from that stand point, I've not added anything to my fruit, rum or ag in the way of nutes or have had to use a "yeast bomb" loaded with mess to get a fermentation started.

just me, but everyone has their preference on what they do, I just shared mine this time.

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Re: Molasses

Post by Hilltop » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:18 am

This may be interesting, the batch outside that the lid fell off of, has a lacto infection. " A white skin on top". I've seen them on outdoor sour mash setups. Sometimes they add a different flavor profile. They batch inside is still going but starting to clear.

Looks like my molasses experiment now has a second experiment because of a lacto infection on one batch. I was going to hit it with more yeast but now I think I'm going to run both batches as evidently it's done. Man I wish that hydrometer and pH strips would arrive.

I did not see the lacto until this morning and it looks like my batch inside needs another day, so a two day lacto invasion run it is.

If I remember correctly lacto can be funny, a little is good, too much can be bad. It's dang near impossible not to get it in an outdoor setup in the deep South. I believe this is why so many southern shiners used sugar. I wish I woulda paid more attention. Fetching wood was boring.

I've also ordered enzymes alpa amylase and gluco. Molasses is new to me but the addition of some for flavoring may become the norm if the final product is anywhere close to the mash taste.
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Re: Molasses

Post by Shine0n » Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:45 pm

Hilltop, my best friend lives in Ackerman County just ouside of Starkville, and I'm from south Louisiana and now live in Va.
Not like that has anything to do with molasses or rum or much at all. lol
molasses will dominate the flavor of anything, so be sparing when using.
on my sweetfeed likker I don't go over 10% and it still tastes more of rum with a twist.

I just did my first all moll rum and it's so powerful I have no choice but to run again and I'll add my lacto infected dunder to the low wines for the spirit run.

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Re: Molasses

Post by irvingsprinkle » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:26 am

Not sure where to post this one, but thought it might be topical here.

I picked up a bucket of feed grade molasses at the local farm supply store (in Sherwood Park, AB), 20kg bucket for about $30CDN. The only thing listed in the ingredients is molasses, nothing about preservatives or other additives. Opening it up you're hit with a strong, bitter molasses smell, and the taste has very little of the sweetness of fancy/table molasses but all the flavour (and more!).

I've been using a tried and true recipe found on this site in a 5 gallon primary fermenter: 8 cups molasses, 2kg cane sugar, 6oz tomato paste, 1/4 cup baker yeast, 1 digestive enzyme tablet (to break down some of those unfermentables found in molasses). I usually add dunder to 1/4 of the primary bucket, but I recently lost my dunder pit and plan to restart it with this batch.

Since there's very little fermentable sugars left in the feed grade molasses I would suggest bumping up the sugar to 3kg, as my wash had a relatively low starting gravity compared to when I've used table molasses, perhaps 2-3% ABV lower in fact.

Distilling in my unpacked column still I noticed a much stronger smell at the start, a lot more of a molasses/rum smell, very sharp. It quickly eases off as it gets into the hearts and the run smells and tastes as usual. Not sure if it's a product of the feed grade molasses in the fermentation, but I noticed a lot more fusel oils and whatnot floating on the top of the distillate. Since I usually run it through a coffee filter before ageing on medium French oak chips that's not a problem.

No doubt you're all asking "what about the taste?", and I must report that deliciousness has been achieved! Tastes very similar to what I usually get with the fancy/table molasses, so from a taste perspective it's a fantastic, albeit much cheaper, substitute for the bulk store fancy/table molasses.

One thing, usually I only wait as long for the ferment to finish before running it, but because work got a little ridiculous it sat in the basement for 6 weeks before I got to it. Didn't see any indications of cross contamination or infection, so I'm going to assume there wasn't any kind of adverse influence there.

I'll let everyone know how it ages up and what it finally tastes like in the end. Talk soon!
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Re: Molasses

Post by sugar glut » Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:53 pm

After using straight black-strap for a few months I gave up. While molasses has a lot of advantages for commercial distillers, it is too difficult for the home distiller to produce a clean alcohol, free of the fermented molasses smell/taint. I've made my best rums from double-distilled straight sugar washes and aged with depleted French oak. To get a mild molasses flavor in rum just add a tiny bit of food grade molasses after distillation; 1.5 teaspoons per liter is about right. The molasses will cause some haze, but the wood ageing will quickly fix that. Note that rum's color comes from the oak and spices...not from molasses. For a stronger taste, use black-strap that has been dissolved in a small jar of moonshine for a few days. The impurities will precipitate.

Commercial distillers use molasses to make rum (and fuel) because it is cheap and requires no extra nutrients to fully ferment. In a good season bulk molasses sells in Australia for $US60--120 per ton, and is readily available at gardening shops. 65% fermentability means the sugar content is equivalent to 12c/lb. Supermarket white sugar in Australia is 29c/lb so thats what I use. Rum distillers DO NOT use molasses for color and flavor, but for the cheap price.

During a talk with a commercial distiller, I learnt that they triple-distill with the final stage being done with a dual-column Coffey. All that effort is to get rid of the fermented molasses taint.
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Re: Molassespp

Post by Yummyrum » Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:01 pm

Salt bush bill , myself and quite a few others I personally know all make really good rum from 100% black strap .
Yes we run it through a four plate column so that is consistan with your mate at the distillery saying he tripple distills .

I guess its all a matter of personal taste . Some like a strong flavoured Rum and some a really light one but you defnitely can make good rum from black strap .

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Re: Molassespp

Post by sugar glut » Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:04 am

Yummyrum wrote: I guess its all a matter of personal taste . Some like a strong flavoured Rum and some a really light one but you defnitely can make good rum from black strap .
Personal taste rules the day, and there is not even a broad definition of what rum is.

I was making a distinction between molasses and *fermented* molasses. Once fermented it has bloody dreadful smell and taste. If you are the proud owner of an advanced still and can buy very cheap blackstrap, then by all means use full blackstrap washes.

You can add molasses to rum, but it should still finished in oak. I did some incomplete experiments trying to clean blackstrap in 40% ethanol and filtering. The resulting syrup did have a more pleasant rummy taste. I found it a lot easier to make a very convincing scotch, so my rum was dropped.
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Re: Molasses

Post by NZChris » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:48 pm

Fermented straight Bundaberg molasses smells and tastes nice in my shed and it gets double distilled in a simple pot into excellent new make rum for oaking and aging. This stuff is so good, that I would have to really screw up the ferment to get it to have, "... bloody dreadful smell and taste."

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Re: Molasses

Post by ShineonCrazyDiamond » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:56 pm

+1 Chris. I love my molasses ferments, although I am able to get food grade 1St pass molasses for the same price as feed blackstrap. There is a, beefy, scent to young rum. This always subsides before I drink it, which is usually at a year.

Maybe you just need to not drink it all right away. :thumbup:
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Re: Molasses

Post by sugar glut » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:26 pm

NZChris wrote:... Bundaberg molasses
I was talking to one of the distillers at the Bundaberg Rum factory. I guess they do know a bit about rum production.
NZChris wrote: ... double distill ... agenig in oak
How much of your rum color comes from the pot still condenser versus the oak?
I've never been able to get "brown" out of a pot still even on the first pass, other than by making the still so hot it pukes. Defeats the purpose of distilling in the first place.
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Re: Molasses

Post by Saltbush Bill » Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:06 pm

sugar glut wrote: I guess they do know a bit about rum production.
Im not that sure that they do , I used to love the stuff once, since making my own for the past 5 years all I can taste now when I drink Bundy is Heads and Tails.
sugar glut wrote:How much of your rum color comes from the pot still condenser versus the oak?

Mostly it all comes from the oak as it does with all brown spirits.
In the case of Bundaberg Rum a lot of the colour comes from added distillers caramel. The nature of their oaking and ageing process doesn't allow much colour to get into the spirit from the oak.
ShineonCrazyDiamond wrote:This always subsides before I drink it, which is usually at a year.
A year seems to be about where magic begins to happen with my all Molasses rum to SCD.....before that its quite drinkable but 12 months onward it really starts to get good.

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