Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wash?

Sugar, and all about sugar washes. Where the primary ingredient is sugar, and other things are just used as nutrients.

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DWelsh
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Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wash?

Post by DWelsh »

I've noticed when I've made sugar washes up to a high SG, that after the fermentation has finished, the wash is thicker than it was, but in a different way. Its almost as if gelatin was added. Could this give a false FG after fermentation? And does anyone know why the wash does this? Its not unfermented sugar, because the wash is dry as hell when it does this. I typically use champagne/wine yeast when I do these washes.
Can solids from brown sugar do this?
I couldn't find any threads with this specific issue, so I'm hoping its not just happening to me.
This has also happened when I've made Cider and added table sugar to boost the alcohol content.
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by GrassHopper »

Need more info. What is your recipe? How high was your OG?
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by DWelsh »

Sorry, for some reason I accidentally deleted that part when editing. OG was 1.082, FG was 1,028. It should be lower, but I'm assuming that this issue that I've always had is the culprit, since the wash is dry. Its been 8 days at 74 degrees with wine yeast. This is a very routine wash that I do, and I usually never check my gravity since I always forget to. Its always had a great yield though. I figured this problem could be something other people run into. I've had this abnormally thick result in the past, where it seems like gelatin has been dissolved in the wash and cider.
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by still_stirrin »

If all you added for fermentables was sugar and the finish gravity was 1.028, I'd say your "viscous" distiller's beer is not done and still has unfermented sugars in it.

Now, the reason fermentation stopped very likely is because the pH crashed, which a sugar wash will do. Did you check it?
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by DWelsh »

I used the recommended amount of fermax nutrient and added lemon 4.5 fluid ounces of lemon juice for ph at the start.
Just to be clear, I'm wondering if this phenomena has happened to anyone else. Its happened to me under different circumstances with different types of wash. If there was still sugar in it it would taste sweet, but mine is really dry. I'm wondering if something else produced in the fermentation could make the mash thick without the problem being unfermented sugars. Has anyone had that happen?
I'm also using bottled water in my washes since the tap is very hard water.
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by GrassHopper »

+ 1 Still-stirrin.
Perhaps checking the PH would help?. You need a PH above 3.5........if not above that, and you have a FG of 1.028, you're most likely not done. A sugar wash should finish at .99. Your wash would still be a bit thick. Not like gelatin, but definitely thicker than a sugar wash that completely finished out. Just my 2 cents.
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by BayouShine »

You still haven't told us what the recipe is. We can't tell if it's unfermentables you haven't mentioned or if there was nothing in the wash to buffer your pH. We need more info.
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

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Its a sugar wash with 12 lbs white sugar, 6 lbs brown sugar, fermax yeast nutrient and 4.5 ounces of lemon juice. It tastes really really dry, and it dries on the fingers with no sticky sugar residue. I'm pretty sure its done or close to done. I could imagine that the PH dropped and my yeast stopped if there was still sweet flavor and/or sticky to the touch, but it shows all the signs of being done other than the FG. I'm just wondering if there is something other than sugar, that would make it so thick and slightly gelatinous. I'm pretty sure there is little to no sugar left from the evidence I listed above.
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by jb-texshine »

Could be bacterial
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by DWelsh »

Is that possible without the mash tasting awful? It tasted really good to me.
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by jb-texshine »

Definately possible. How much sugar to how much water?
Is the whole wash slimey or just a layer on top?
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by still_stirrin »

DWelsh wrote:...I'm just wondering if there is something other than sugar, that would make it so thick and slightly gelatinous.
It's happened many, many times before. Lots of threads to learn from...here's a good one: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 9#p7258294
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by still_stirrin »

DWelsh wrote:....It tastes really really dry, and it dries on the fingers with no sticky sugar residue...
If the pH crashed, it would taste sour. Just like the lemon juice you added, of which you added quite a lot. Chances are, you really didn't need to add any citric acid, unless the starting pH was >7.0. "Dry" and "sour" are very close, especially as the pH gets very acidic. Your tongue is more sensitive to sour than it is to sweet.
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by The Baker »

For what it is worth. I am not saying this explains what you observe, but......

Boiling sugar with an acid (say lemon juice) makes inverted sugars.

"Inverted or invert sugar is a mixture of glucose and fructose; it is obtained by splitting sucrose into these two components. The mixture is sold as a VISCOUS LIQUID...."

http://www.scienceofcooking.com/what_ar ... sugars.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by still_stirrin »

Geoff,

I don't think he boiled the sweet liquor. In fact, I'm not sure he even heated the water he dissolved the sugars into. But he said he added Fermax (amt. unknown) and more than 1/2 cup of lemon juice. He didn't say how big the wash is, but he used 18 lb. of sugar in it. OG = 1.082, or so claimed. Perhaps higher tho.

I certainly don't believe he inverted the sugars (intentionally).
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Last edited by still_stirrin on Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by The Baker »

still_stirrin wrote:Geoff,

I don't think he boiled the sweet liquor. In fact, I'm not sure he even heated the water he dissolved the sugars into. But he said he added Fermax (amt. unknown) and more than 1/2 cup of lemon juice. He didn't say how big the wash is, but he used 18 lb. of sugar in it.

I certainly don't believe he inverted the sugars (intentionally).
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Thanks, just wondering.
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by BayouShine »

Considering the wash stalled out at 1.028 and the addition of lemon juice, I'm inclined to believe that the pH crashed. The wash can have all the nutrients necessary, but if the pH is out of range it won't ferment dry.

If you have pH strips available, give it a check. No sense in throwing other solutions out there until you eliminate this pretty common one.
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by NZChris »

8 days isn't long for a sugar wash. Adjust the pH if necessary, check the accuracy of your hydrometer, check the SG, wait two days then check it again. If it has fallen, it isn't stalled, it's just slow.
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

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What is the over all volume, I'd bet London to a brick I can guess you problem
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by DWelsh »

All the details of the wash are kinda spread out through the posts, so I'll condense them all here:
Its a 10 gallon wash. I used 18 lbs sugar(6 brown, 12 white). I used bottled water and boiled 2 to 3 gallons to dissolve the sugar. I added one of those small lemon juice capsules to the wash (which I believe was 4.5 ounces), half in each of the 5 gallon carboys after I added everything else. I pitched the yeast at around 72 degrees, and the wash has been at about 72 to 74 degrees the whole time. I believe I may not be able to detect the sugar well with my own tongue, because now (just a couple hours after racking) the wash is bubbling faster, once every 6 seconds. I guess there must be alot left over to ferment that I just can't taste. I'm gonna let it ferment a few more days. I've been struggling to taste the sweetness in the all grain mashes that I've done, so maybe my tongue is broken
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by thecroweater »

OK so you were aiming for close to 13%, much higher than I would but doable with the right yeast ( maybe not the best result though) . You have about 7% out of a possible 13% give or take. You have somewhere around 6 or 7 lbs of of sugar left in there or even allowing for a heavy molasses brown sugar at least five. Ya say it tastes dry so maybe it is acidic. The pH might be an issue but really that shouldn't be an issue reading what ya have done . Maybe its just a tad cool for ya yeast. Warm it and stir it right up, if I'd don't fire run it and watch for puking
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by DWelsh »

thecroweater wrote:OK so you were aiming for close to 13%, much higher than I would but doable with the right yeast ( maybe not the best result though) . You have about 7% out of a possible 13% give or take. You have somewhere around 6 or 7 lbs of of sugar left in there or even allowing for a heavy molasses brown sugar at least five. Ya say it tastes dry so maybe it is acidic. The pH might be an issue but really that shouldn't be an issue reading what ya have done . Maybe its just a tad cool for ya yeast. Warm it and stir it right up, if I'd don't fire run it and watch for puking
I think you probably nailed it. The airlock is going full throttle again. I've never racked a mash before this, only beer (which stops bubbling relatively soon). The airlock had stopped for a couple hours last night. I'll probably let it finish out and put it outside to get the yeast to settle out. I'm sick of the nasty flavor from boiled yeast, so hopefully this batch will prove better. Thanks
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by NZChris »

DWelsh wrote:The airlock had stopped for a couple hours last night.
Have you not got it wrapped up to keep the temperature stable?

Are you sure you've been getting '... nasty flavor from boiled yeast ...'? I've done quite a few sugar washes over the years, never racked and cleared any of them, and have never had a fault that would fit that description. I would look at the ingredients, fermentation temperatures, distilling protocol and still construction before trying to fix it by clearing the wash.
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by thecroweater »

See now this is where options can come in, I always rack and leave the trub as I think it carries over a crappy t stale bread flavour. I know ppl that like that flavour but personally I'm not a fan. Its not undrinkable but with this hobby the aim should be to make something to the best of ya ability to your own liking. Some don't mind yeasty flavours some detest it which it why its not wise to tell someone how to suck eggs. I think its more productive to point out how you would do something and why. Neutrals I let clear habit and somewhat avoid the bed as there is no flavours there I want, grain is quite another story and I want what is in suspension but still not the lees and fruit I run the lot except the lees not in suspension.
Point is I quite understand why ya want to rack nuetrals off, that said it doesn't need to be dead clear :thumbup:
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by DWelsh »

I'm still experimenting, trying to find a method that works, and after reading an article on the parent site about how settling out the yeast is some great distillers secret, I've decided to try it. There is a common flavor that occasionally lingers strong in the distillate. Its hard to explain, but after the stripping run, that odor lingers in anything that the distillate touched. I've read that boiling the yeast allows all of the nasties that they obsorbed to end up in your final product. Some runs have it strong, some are really week with it.
The smoothest run I ever did though, which didnt have that odor at all, was a sugar wash with corn added for flavor. I took the hearts and tails from the stripping run and let them sit in a glass vat of applewood charcoal for 2 days. Then distilled. The smokey flavor from the charcoal carried over and was nice, and I've never made anything that smooth before. I let some of it age on charred hickory for several days in jars and those were alright too. Whatever ends up in the distillate that I hate seems so get absorbed by the charcoal, so I'm curious what that might be.
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by jb-texshine »

Esters most likely. Some yeast are fruity,some florally, some dont add anything or very little to the flavor and scent profile. Yeast tsstes like yeast,taste some for reference. If thats not it try a different yeast for a different result.
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

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From what you say, I'm confused what your distilling protocol is. AFAIK stripping runs don't have hearts and tails, the only cut being a foreshot. If you are drinking your stripping runs I'm not surprised you find something you don't like.
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Re: Possible false FG reading. Anyone had this with sugar wa

Post by DWelsh »

I go slow at the beginning to take the heads off to use as solvent, then I crank it up to get the rest out, then I do a second distillations with less harsh heads. I'm not drinking stripping runs.
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