Low %ABV yield from wash

Sugar, and all about sugar washes. Where the primary ingredient is sugar, and other things are just used as nutrients.

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Mash_4077
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Low %ABV yield from wash

Post by Mash_4077 »

Experimenting with something other than pure sugar for first time. I tried a Corn sugar and malt recipe/ingredients from local brew supplier. I dissolved sugars in boiled water, let the 5.5 Ga volume cool down to below 105 F then added 2 packets of yeast which I re hydrated first to start. I usually use a turbo yeast with plane sugar wash which easily yields 20% ABV every time. Most distiller posts say stay away from turbo for one reason or other. So this time I just used a Flieshman's bread yeast. After capping ferment bucket and adding air lock the wash began a slow bubbling the next morning and continued that way until after about 5 days it stopped. Now I don't know the specific gravity change because I just use a proofing hydrometer. I'm used to seeing a wash of about 20% ABV but this ferment was barely 3%. However weak, it tasted really really good. Not knowing what to do with this tasty wash, I just added some old tails to bring it up to 25% ABV and processed it all very slowly in my 5 Ga clawhammer.

That said, the low ABV does not sound right I was expecting maybe 11%. Was this just a fluke, any ideas what went wrong? Would turbo yeast have kicked this wash into high gear and gave me the ABV I wanted at the cost of some taboo don't use turbo yeast thingy. And why is turbo yeast not reccommended it has worked great with my sugar washes! So far most tasters have liked what I have made.

Obviously I'm new to this advice from this forum is awesome
Pikey
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Re: Low %ABV yield from wash

Post by Pikey »

Mash_4077 wrote:
............ I just use a proofing hydrometer. I'm used to seeing a wash of about 20% ABV but this ferment was barely 3%. However weak, it tasted really really good. Not knowing what to do with this tasty wash, I just added some old tails to bring it up to 25% ABV and processed it all very slowly in my 5 Ga clawhammer.

That said, the low ABV does not sound right I was expecting maybe 11%. Was this just a fluke, any ideas what went wrong? Would turbo yeast have kicked this wash into high gear and gave me the ABV I wanted at the cost of some taboo don't use turbo yeast thingy. And why is turbo yeast not reccommended it has worked great with my sugar washes! So far most tasters have liked what I have made.

Obviously I'm new to this advice from this forum is awesome
Ok one bit at a time :

1) How much sugar did you put in ?

2)What yeast did you use ? [Edit - sorry you do state "Bread yeast" - you are going from one extreme to the other - """Turbo" will ferment to 20(ish) - "Bread" should really be good for 10-11% provided nurients and temperature were right. ]

3) Your "Proof hydrometer" is useless for assessing the abv of a wash - if there is any sugar at all left in solution. Get a proper hydrometer.

3a) [ Edit -You say it "tasted good" - was it bitter ? - if not then you had sugar left in there.]

4) If you were registering 3% my suspicion is that there was still sugar in suspension and that was acting in the opposite direction from the alcohol. [Edit 2 - because of this, your real abv may have been quite close to what you expected. There couldn't have been MUCH sugar left as you "Proof hydrometer" was registering an abv lower than 1.000 (water registers 1.000 or 0% proof on the two types of hydrometer) - when you added the tails, you diluted the wash and the effect of this "sugar" became less - IMO ]

5) What on earth was the abv of your "Tails" if you could adjust to 25% by using them ?
Last edited by Pikey on Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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bluefish_dist
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Re: Low %ABV yield from wash

Post by bluefish_dist »

Bread yeast is only good to low teens on abv, even then it might taste better a tad lower. What nutrients did you use, what was the ph at pitch, ph when finished, temp during fermentation? All of those will effect how your fermentation finishes.

I would guess if you just replaced turbo with bread yeast, you didn't add nutrients. That would make a big difference. If you didn't add any calcium you probably had a ph crash as well. If ph is too high at the start you won't get good propagation and that will make it finish at a higher sg.
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Mash_4077
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Re: Low %ABV yield from wash

Post by Mash_4077 »

Pikey:
I would say 8 lbs Corn sugar, 4 lbs Malt disolved in boiling Tap water for total volume of about 5.5 Gal. Fleishmans Yeist it seemed OK and was activated. Yes I expected 11% but again measured with proof hydromerter 2 scales which measures in both %ABV and proof and registered below 5%. It was not real bitter, but tasted like a flat beer with some alcahol and some sweetness. My "tails" on average was about 150 proof and probably added 3 qrts. May had brought it up to 15% not 25%.

Bluefish:
I used no nutrients just what is mentioned above, and I do not have a PH meter, temp was around 75F.

It sounds like I could use a few more tools
specific gravity hydrometer for getting measurement on wash, I just figured the lower end of %ABV hydrometer scale should work fine. % alcohol is % alconol no?
PH meter I guess, if not using turbo yiest. Is bread yeast more tempormental?
Nutrients and calcium to adjust pitch
try again.

Finally why do distillers consider turbo yeast unacceptable?
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Re: Low %ABV yield from wash

Post by Pikey »

In one set of posts you have managed to hit a LOT of teh things we find "contentious" here lol

Mash_4077 wrote:Experimenting with something other than pure sugar for first time. I tried a Corn sugar and malt recipe/ingredients from local brew supplier. I dissolved sugars in boiled water, let the 5.5 Ga volume cool down to below 105 F then added 2 packets of yeast which I re hydrated first to start. I usually use a turbo yeast with plane sugar wash which easily yields 20% ABV every time.
Not from 8lb sugar and a little malt in 5.5 gallons it doesn't
Mash_4077 wrote:Pikey:
I would say 8 lbs Corn sugar, 4 lbs Malt disolved in boiling Tap water for total volume of about 5.5 Gal. Fleishmans Yeist it seemed OK and was activated. Yes I expected 11% but again measured with proof hydromerter 2 scales which measures in both %ABV and proof and registered below 5%. It was not real bitter, but tasted like a flat beer with some alcahol and some sweetness.
If it is femented out - it should taste bitter. Sweet means there is some sugar left. - That is why your alcoholometer is reading low.
Edit:

Mash_4077 wrote: My "tails" on average was about 150 proof and probably added 3 qrts. May had brought it up to 15% not 25%.

Bluefish:
I used no nutrients just what is mentioned above, and I do not have a PH meter, temp was around 75F.

It sounds like I could use a few more tools
specific gravity hydrometer for getting measurement on wash, I just figured the lower end of %ABV hydrometer scale should work fine. % alcohol is % alconol no?
[Yes but your hydrometer cannot measure it - it is not magic it is just a float ! - floats higher in thick liquid than "thin liquid" sugar makes it thick - alcohol makes it "thin" (actually it's about SG - but that should be ok for the minute) - if you have a mixture of thick and thin - it can't just say "Oh I'll ignore the thick"]

As for "Turbo yeast" I'm not even going to go there - here's a google search of teh site for you !

https://www.google.co.uk/search?rls=en- ... urbo+yeast
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Mikey-moo
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Re: Low %ABV yield from wash

Post by Mikey-moo »

Posted at the same time as Pikey...
Mash_4077 wrote:Pikey:
I would say 8 lbs Corn sugar, 4 lbs Malt disolved in boiling Tap water for total volume of about 5.5 Gal. Fleishmans Yeist it seemed OK and was activated. Yes I expected 11% but again measured with proof hydromerter 2 scales which measures in both %ABV and proof and registered below 5%. It was not real bitter, but tasted like a flat beer with some alcahol and some sweetness. My "tails" on average was about 150 proof and probably added 3 qrts. May had brought it up to 15% not 25%.

Bluefish:
I used no nutrients just what is mentioned above, and I do not have a PH meter, temp was around 75F.

It sounds like I could use a few more tools
specific gravity hydrometer for getting measurement on wash, I just figured the lower end of %ABV hydrometer scale should work fine. % alcohol is % alconol no?
PH meter I guess, if not using turbo yiest. Is bread yeast more tempormental?
Nutrients and calcium to adjust pitch
try again.

Finally why do distillers consider turbo yeast unacceptable?
Hi M*A*S*H...

Welcome to the forum! It's great to have you hear, you're in the best place to learn all about distilling, and don't take offense please, but from the questions you're asking... it looks like you have a lot to learn. Kudos to you for asking the question!

To start with, your hydrometer, if it's a proof and traille hydrometer (gives you just abv and proof) then it can only be used on distilled liquid. A beer hydrometer is different and they're not interchangeable. Whatever the reading was, ignore it, because they don't work like that. Get a beer hydrometer, they're really cheap and work very well to measure how much sugar is left in the wash BEFORE distillation. This can be used to calculate the approximate abv.

The reason turbo yeasts are frowned upon is that the yeast are pushed way past their normal limits, as you say up to 20%, and this causes yeast to stress and produce off flavours.
The big packets that you have been using so far are not just yeast. They are yeast + nutrients + pH buffering chemicals, designed as an all in one package, originally so that people making fuel ethanol wouldn't have to wait so long. They were not designed with flavour in mind, which is why most of the time, if you use Turbo yeast, you also need to use special Turbo Klar finings and Turbo Carbon 'cleaning' agents. Typically then you also need to charcoal filter the end product to get it tasting ok - although your mileage may vary. If you want to use them then by all means carry on, there are posts here to help you get the best results if you do and no one but you needs to taste the end result, so crack on I say. Whatever makes you happy.

Some members here have reported that modern Turbo Yeasts are better, but it's down to what your mouth will tolerate taste-wise at the end of the day.

Having switched to bread yeast, you then need to add in nutrient or you won't get very far. As you say, you didn't do this, and that's why your wash still tasted nice - it just wasn't ready.

My best advice to you would be to switch to a recipe in the Tried and True section here... all of which have been carefully tested and troubleshot over the years. We'll be able to help you better knowing that you've followed a recipe that is proven to work too.

Good luck!
Best place to start for newbies - click here - Courtesy of Cranky :-)

If you have used this site to save money by making your own top quality booze at home then please consider donating a couple of dollars to help keep this site running. Cheers!
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bluefish_dist
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Re: Low %ABV yield from wash

Post by bluefish_dist »

For sugar wash, about 2 lb of sugar per gallon. If adding grain, again 2 lb per gallon. Note that those are cumulative, so if it's 5 gal, you could do 10 lbs sugar or 10 lbs grain, not both. Add 1 small can of tomato paste (6oz) as nutrient per 5 gal. Adjust the ph to between 5-5.4 to start using citric acid or lemon juice. Add a handful of oyster shells or 1 tbsp of calcium carbonate. Do that and it should ferment dry.

As others mentioned without nutrient and ph buffer in the turbo, the ferment would have stalled early leaving a lot of sugar behind. Thus the sweet flavor and low yield. When dry it should be bitter as there are little to no sugar left.
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Re: Low %ABV yield from wash

Post by Pikey »

Agreed bluefish - but with his Taille hydro showing 3% - he wasn't far off finished was he ?

When are you going to run it MASH ?
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Re: Low %ABV yield from wash

Post by ShineRunner »

8 pounds sugar and 4 pounds "malt," which I'm guessing is LME (liquid malt extract)? That would get you closer to 13%, I think. As the others have said, you can't use a proof and tralle hydrometer to measure the %ABV of a fermented wash. It's only useful for distilled product.

You have 75% abv "tails!?" Hell, my hearts are usually only 60-65%! I do that on purpose so my low wines give me a product that doesn't have to be watered down as much. What in the world are you making!?
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Re: Low %ABV yield from wash

Post by Shine0n »

I would say pH crash from no nutes, go to the Walmart and get pH strips. They will let you know in the ball park of what it is, also you need to know what it needs to be so that if it starts falling you can adjust for it OR add some nutes and oyster shells at the beginning to avoid it all together.
On the turbo, I've used it with success! Oh shit I'm admitting to use it. NOW, if that's the rout you want to go here is what you should do. DON'T TRY FOR 20% try 12-15%
Use half the packet for a 5 gal wash and let it clear till it looks like water and then you'll need no turbo clear, filtering or polishing at all. It won't taste as good as an AG or corn sugar head but will be OK for a mixer.

The turbo will clear crystal clear if given time but so will bread and distillers yeast. It takes TIME to clear that good and defeats the purpose to use turbo if it ain't quick right?!?!?!
Now you know how to run the still and it's been very well cleaned, get a tried and true recipe and follow it to the letter. You'll have a product that tastes good and you can be proud of to share with your buds.
Just because you can get 20% doesn't mean you should.

Shine0n
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