Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Sugar, and all about sugar washes. Where the primary ingredient is sugar, and other things are just used as nutrients.

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tiramisu
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Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Post by tiramisu »

Hello world,

I've been doing more reading and as usual I can never quite sort out fact from fancy.

My understanding of of inverting sugar is that you are taking sucrose and splitting it to glucose and fructose.

2) That some yeasts will perform better/have less flavours if this is used
3) That a sugar wash requires nutrients for the yeast to prosper
4) But a turbo yeast, or at least pushing for too high an alcohol content results in off flavours more suitable for fuel.

So...
a) If I do choose to invert should I be using an old fashioned baker's yeast, Dady, or some specific yeast typed with a brand name?
b) The vitamin packs, tomato paste, dap/urea seem to be a common choices for nutrients ...
ala
40g of Di-Ammonium Phosphate
747g of Ammonium Sulphate
2g of Thiamine
1g of Potassium Tartrate
10g of Bentonite

If I'm not in a rush and the my driving requirement is not to add yeasty byproducts to the flavor what direction should I be taking?

c) On this site I regularly read the posts about the off flavour results of turbo yeasts. Does the yeast produce this outcome throughout the process? or just the end? Is there any reason to use turbo yeast in the process at all or is this just a generally good way of making race fuel with little effort?
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acfixer69
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Re: Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Post by acfixer69 »

First the turbo is for fuel. As for inverting sugar I have never found it necessary but it won't hurt if you wanted too. If you just pick a tried and true and do it as described you will be in a place where many can answer your question with so real answers.
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Newbies and Turbo Yeast sellers use and recommend the stuff.....one knows no better,,,,,the other makes money from it/you.
Very Very few long term distillers or those in the commercial distilling world will touch the stuff with a ten foot pole.
Reckon there is a damn good reason for that.
My reason is that I tried it early in my distilling and it made crap booze and even stunk the shed up while still fermenting............I see no good or logical reason for its use.
I'll also go along with AC in the inverting sugar thing.......never found the need to .....and most of what I have read over the years on different forums indicates to me that its more trouble than its worth.......work outweighs any benefit.
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Demy
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Re: Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Post by Demy »

I have never used turbo yeast (hard to find where I live) and I think I did well by reading the member's report. Only boiled yeast + a little flour as a nutrient or tomato. I have never inverted sugar, I believe it does not make a huge difference but some argue the inversion, maybe it can be effective in difficult ferments. I believe everyone has to find the right technique for their OWN process.
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Re: Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Post by 8Ball »

I’ve read that by inverting sugar prior to pitching allows yeast to focus on creating alcohol. This supposedly creates a better flavor by not stressing out the yeast. Pasteurizing and inverting has resulted in clean and healthy ferments for me.

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Re: Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Post by The Baker »

I like to invert the sugar and it seems to be less work. Not more.

It mixes immediately with the water in the ferment, whereas plain sugar is a bugger to mix.
And using the invert sugar hot (NOT hot enough to burn you if it spills!) warms the liquid.

Geoff
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Re: Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Post by StillerBoy »

8Ball wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:04 am I’ve read that by inverting sugar prior to pitching allows yeast to focus on creating alcohol. This supposedly creates a better flavor by not stressing out the yeast. Pasteurizing and inverting has resulted in clean and healthy ferments for me.
I've just finished a 7 month experiment of just that, using straight sugar, inverted sugar, stepped addition of straight sugar, and stepped addition of inverted sugar in amounts for 4K (11%) , 4.5K (12%) and 5K (13%) for a 26L batches, all fermented using the same ingredients, method and process..

All were processed in the same manner, using 2" x 36" concentric reflux column lava rocks packing, same boiler amounts and abv, distilled @ 95.5% with the same cut process..

Result.. all were very nice with the 4K being the smoothest and having the least of a mouth burn effect.. meaning all were smooth, but the 4K had the least effect of a mouth burn, almost to none, the others having just a hint of a burn.. the overall winner was the 4K but there was no real noticeable different between inverted or straight or stepped in smoothness or burn within the same category..

But here where the difference araise.. the fermentation time for the stepped and inverted batches were quicker to finish than the straight sugar by about 12 to 16 hrs.. all categories finished dry within 3 days but the stepped and inverted were done in 2.5 days..

So from the results achieved from the experimentation, all my sugar wash are now done using the stepped method..

Mars
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Re: Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Hi guys. Very likely, my question is not for this thread but who knows... the other day I heard about the caramelization (and/or inverting?) of white sugar by heating it with some yeast. May I know A) what for? and B) how to? Something like special additive in brewing process? Thanks in advance.

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Dozingdruid
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Re: Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Post by Dozingdruid »

Heating with yeast is probably just to leave some dead yeast cells for the live yeast to use as nutes.
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Re: Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Dozingdruid wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:20 am Heating with yeast is probably just to leave some dead yeast cells for the live yeast to use as nutes.
But what I know of,,, it's for beer main fermentation. And to be consumed as beer, no further stilling process expected... just nutes, no flavor or taste or acidity correction?

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Dozingdruid
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Re: Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Post by Dozingdruid »

As far as I know. I've read a lot about boiling yeast to use as nutes, never done it myself, 'round here I find cheaper nutrient options. I might do it with an old yeast cake that's been standing a while that I want to repitch but worried it might have gone stale. I've never found any info or other reason to boil yeast.

A 5 minute Google search looks like most the beer brewing forums agree.
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VLAGAVULVIN
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Re: Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Post by VLAGAVULVIN »

Dozingdruid wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:47 am I've read a lot about boiling yeast to use as nutes, never done it myself
It works, definitely, either with stale cake or fresh or dried :)

Dozingdruid wrote: Tue Jan 19, 2021 12:47 am A 5 minute Google search looks like most the beer brewing forums agree.
Pity but mmmkay: will lurk moar :eugeek:

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Re: Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Post by desert_distiller »

I have used two sugar wash recipes that seem to work reliably and produce a nice neutral spirit. I use a 5 gallon (19l) carboy for my fermenter so scale as needed. I also invert the sugar, I like the end result so haven't bothered to do a comparison.

1st is good old TPW.
In a pot combine 2l of water, 7#'s(3.2 kilos) sugar and 1teaspoon citric acid. Bring to a boil and simmer for 30 minutes. Add 135gr tomato paste, stir to dissolve. Poor mix into Carboy. Add water and ice to bring up to 4 1/2 gallons / 17 liters and final temp of 85-90F. Shake to aerate and if you have some crushed egg shells you can add 1T to keep ph from crashing but I haven't found this to be necessary when fermenting at 22C. Pitch 1T of dady. Give it a couple weeks to finish out.

2nd is a variant of Teddy's FFV based on local ingredients.
In a pot combine 2l of water, 7#'s(3.2 kilos) sugar, 1teaspoon citric acid and 250g of cracked wheat. Bring to a boil and simmer for 30 minutes. Poor mix into Carboy. Add water and ice to bring up to 4 1/2 gallons / 17 liters and final temp of 85-90F. Add 2T yeast nutrient, 1T egg shells and 1T bentonite(to help it settle), shake to aerate. Pitch 1T of dady. Should finish out in about a week depend on the temp of your ferment room.

While they are both neutrals, I prefer the flavor of the wheat wash. I find they both produce minimal heads and tails. I typically strip three batches, then do a spirit run for a nice clean neutral.
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Post by Saltbush Bill »

tiramisu wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:28 pm b) The vitamin packs, tomato paste, dap/urea seem to be a common choices for nutrients ...
ala
Urea is banned from use in Australia, and as far as I am aware some other countries. Suggest you read the following and decide for your self.

The Great Safety Debate
There isn’t much of a debate over whether ethyl carbamate is safe: Ethyl carbamate (also known as Urethane) is a Grade 2 carcinogen that is known to produce cancer in primates. The debate lies in whether the amount of ethyl carbamate produced from Urea during fermentation is at dangerous levels after the distillation process is complete. In New Zealand and Australia, Urea was banned as a nutrient in 1984 only to have the ban later lifted in 1994, but the ban was reinstated a couple of years later and remains in effect today. Keep in mind that we are talking about the use of Urea in food-grade products, which is different from its use in other types of products such as fertilizers. In 2005, the US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health published a report on the safety of Urea that claimed the use of Urea safe “to facilitate fermentation of wine.” However, it is not safe for use in distilled spirits due to the bigger issue caused by the elevated temperatures that occur during distilling. Plus, most wineries even continue to choose to use methods to avoid using Urea during fermentation, with many even trying to avoid using fertilizers with Urea on their grapes.
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Re: Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Post by Yummyrum »

Whoo thanks Salty , was unaware of that
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Saltbush Bill
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Re: Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Post by Saltbush Bill »

Been like that for a long time Yummy ..why they made the Turdbo mob "SS" stop using it years ago.
Curio
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Re: Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Post by Curio »

Inverting sugar (splitting sucrose into glucose and fructose) essentially should double the osmotic pressure of mesh/wash.

More number of ions/molecules dissolved in water, more the osmotic pressure.

Just something to keep in mind and investigate further if one is so inclined.
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Re: Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Post by Hügelwilli »

Curio,
You mean two half apples weight twice as one whole apple?
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Re: Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Post by Hügelwilli »

Sorry for my comment. Probably you didn't understand what to answer.
Yes, the osmotic pressure is probably double after inverting. But I don't remember that ever one distiller has reported that after inverting he had problems with fermentation. So probably high osmotic pressure is no big deal for yeast. Probably high density is the real problem. And the density remains approximately the same after inverting.
I remember there is a turbo yeast which says it can ferment glucose to a higher abv than sucrose.
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Re: Inverting, Yeast Types and Turbo (nutrients)

Post by Shine4fun »

StillerBoy wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 5:14 pm
8Ball wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:04 am I’ve read that by inverting sugar prior to pitching allows yeast to focus on creating alcohol. This supposedly creates a better flavor by not stressing out the yeast. Pasteurizing and inverting has resulted in clean and healthy ferments for me.
I've just finished a 7 month experiment of just that, using straight sugar, inverted sugar, stepped addition of straight sugar, and stepped addition of inverted sugar in amounts for 4K (11%) , 4.5K (12%) and 5K (13%) for a 26L batches, all fermented using the same ingredients, method and process..

All were processed in the same manner, using 2" x 36" concentric reflux column lava rocks packing, same boiler amounts and abv, distilled @ 95.5% with the same cut process..

Result.. all were very nice with the 4K being the smoothest and having the least of a mouth burn effect.. meaning all were smooth, but the 4K had the least effect of a mouth burn, almost to none, the others having just a hint of a burn.. the overall winner was the 4K but there was no real noticeable different between inverted or straight or stepped in smoothness or burn within the same category..

But here where the difference araise.. the fermentation time for the stepped and inverted batches were quicker to finish than the straight sugar by about 12 to 16 hrs.. all categories finished dry within 3 days but the stepped and inverted were done in 2.5 days..

So from the results achieved from the experimentation, all my sugar wash are now done using the stepped method..

Mars
Could you give a simple explanation of your step feeding a sugar wash?
I am in over my head. :)
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