PTFE - Acceptable synthetic?

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HookLine
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Re: PTFE - Acceptable synthetic?

Post by HookLine »

Centimeter wrote:Alright, I guess I'll run some LCMS on teflon tape. :roll:
Please do.
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Re: PTFE - Acceptable synthetic?

Post by Centimeter »

Alright, I did a mass spec run on ethanol with PTFE tape. I used the Mil Spec stuff that's made in Malaysia. I boiled 1g of the tape in 20ml of 95% ethanol for about 30sec and then ran it on an ESI MS. I have attached the TIC of the run for the range of m/z that we would expect to see PFOA (~415m/z) charged to +1. There is one ion that's in the range. It has a charge of +1 and an apparent m/z of ~415.1, which may indeed be PFOA. However, the number of counts is minuscule- so much so that I can't really even say if this is a peak or if it's just noise.

I just want to warn you guys that I am by no means an expert in MS (I'm a novice at best). This was a quick scrapped together run. Not necessarily conclusive by any means, but a good piece to the puzzle. Had I PFOA available to me, I would run that as well as a control. I hope this helps, take it or leave it.
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Last edited by Centimeter on Mon Dec 14, 2009 2:22 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PTFE - Acceptable synthetic?

Post by kiwistiller »

Thank you kindly centimeter! that's a very quick turnaround on getting the test done :D

Thanks again.
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Re: PTFE - Acceptable synthetic?

Post by HookLine »

Damn that was fast!

Thank you kindly, sir, every bit helps.

Is the vertical line just below 414.8 the single ion?
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Re: PTFE - Acceptable synthetic?

Post by Centimeter »

I forgot to adjust the m/z for the additional proton. See my revised post.

The ion could in fact be PFOA, however it looks pretty much like noise to me. Even if it was PFOA, we're talking about 10 counts in ~10ul. To put that in perspective, 10ul of ethanol has ~100000000000000000000 molecules of ethanol in it. So 10 detected molecules really isn't anything. Furthermore, the intensity of this ion equates to 0.00285% of the total intensity of the run... so virtually nothing.

I also ran just 95% ethanol and I have attached the same window for that run. As you can see, this same ion appears in this run as well. Subsequently, I would have to say that this ion is not a consequence of the PTFE but rather some trace contaminant in the ethanol that I used. Like I said, it is most likely noise, especially at this intensity.

I really don't think there's any PFOA in this stuff- certainly not an appreciable amount. The Chemist didn't see any on his runs either, albeit it's possible he missed it if it only charged to +1.

This is of course all speculation. I am in no way endorsing the use of PTFE... just giving you some info (that may be fake for all you know) that you can weigh in your decision. <--- Liability stuff!
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Re: PTFE - Acceptable synthetic?

Post by rad14701 »

Centimeter, is 30 seconds the standard time protocol for this type of a test...??? I'm only asking because in real world distillation the product would be subjected to hot ethanol for up to several hours and breakdown may not occur until a substantial time of exposure has passed...

I, for one, truly appreciate the time that the two of you have put into testing... It's nice to know we have members with such skills...
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Re: PTFE - Acceptable synthetic?

Post by Centimeter »

I don't know that there is a standard protocol. PFOA is soluble in water and polar solvents, subsequently it should have dissolved in the ethanol quite rapidly- especially if you consider the surface area of the tape. PFOA is not a breakdown product at this stage, it is just a potential residual contaminant from the polymerization reaction.

We're not looking for breakdown/pyrolysis products. Those would appear at way higher temperatures than what exist in a stil.

It looks like Wikipedia has updated its info on PFOA. Looks like they say we're in the clear too:

"Perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA or C8)—in the form of the ammonium salt (APFO)[16]—is used as surfactant in the emulsion polymerization of PTFE,[17][18] and has been detected in some PTFE products.[19][20] The levels that have been dectected in non-stick cookware range from non-detect to 75 parts per billion.[20][21] PTFE products such as thread sealant tape have had 1800 parts per billion of PFOA detected.[19] Non-stick cookware is heated to volatilize PFOA.[19]

A DuPont study on Teflon PTFE did not detect any PFOA above their detection limit of 9 parts per billion,[22] and DuPont says no PFOA is in Teflon cookware.[23] A 2009 USEPA study found levels of PFOA in non-stick cookware ranging from below the detection limit of 1.5 parts per billion up to 4.3 parts per billion.[20] DuPont says there should be no measurable amount on a finished pan provided it has been properly cured.[24] While PFOA has been detected in the low parts per billion range in the blood of people,[25] exposure from non-stick cookware is considered insignificant[26][27]—despite the marketing of other wares. However, at temperatures well above those encountered in cooking,[28] PFTE pyrolysis can form minor amounts of PFOA.[29][30]"
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Re: PTFE - Acceptable synthetic?

Post by CFP61670 »

very interesting read, thanks to all involved in shedding light on the issue, this was the issue that brought me here.
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Re: PTFE - Acceptable synthetic?

Post by Tony_D »

I'm a mechanical engineer at a gasket company that solely makes PFTE for gasket purposes. It is in a class by itself when it comes to plastics. It is resistant to just about every chemical out there, never deteriorates from exposure to chemicals, has a melting point greater than 600 deg F, and, because nothing can stick to it, is essentially impossible to contaminate once it has been sintered. Unfortunately I just started my journey of making liquor so I know much less about the alcohol making process than I do about PTFE. At this time I'm still trying to figure liquor out, but if you guys have any questions about PTFE, feel free to ask!
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Re: PTFE - Acceptable synthetic?

Post by googe »

Your going to be very popular I think Tony lol. I've been looking into ptfe on a project I'm working on and have many questions!. From.what I've read, there's many different types of ptfe, is the raw ptfe the best for high proof alc?. Can ptfe be applied over existing plastic such as silicon, polyurethane, nylon?. does rigid ptfe have the same qualities as soft ptfe?. Can rigid ptfe be moulded as easy as soft?. any help.would be great thanks.mate :thumbup: .
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Tony_D
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Re: PTFE - Acceptable synthetic?

Post by Tony_D »

Tater there is no law, but most manufacturers, such as the one I work for, meet or exceed ASTM standards. We do in-house material testing on all of our product and can offer certification if needed.
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Kareltje
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Re: PTFE - Acceptable synthetic?

Post by Kareltje »

Good to read this thread, as I now for the first time are going to need some gaskets and I planned to make them with PTFE.

Here people are upset because the employees of Du Pont have been exposed to PFOA for a long time, while Du Pont knew it was poisonous and did not take or order protective measures. The employees of course are very angry!
It is a relief that we, the users of the products, have nothing to fear.
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Re: PTFE - Acceptable synthetic?

Post by Kareltje »

My gasket of cardboard wrapped with PTFE-tape works perfectly!

In addition on my post right above this one: my newspaper had an article about Dupont (or Chemours) in Parkersburg. A lot of people do not dare to drink water from the tap and are fighting Dupont/Chemours for poisening air and water with PFOA (or C8 as it is called in my newspaper). About 3.500 inhabitants claim to have cancer or other nasty diseases because of this.
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Re: PTFE - Acceptable synthetic?

Post by cilla »

What can we use, that isn't plastic, to wrap threads and as washers in screw fittings ?

How about carving balsa wood into washer shapes and using that instead of plastic washers ?
Whatever the balsa wood leaches into the product, it's going to be the natural organic constituents of balsa wood.
(I presume that means non-toxic, or certainly, less toxic, than various plastics).

What could we use to wrap threads (PTFE substitute ?)

Thanks to anyone that responds

Cilla :) x
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Re: PTFE - Acceptable synthetic?

Post by CopperFiend »

cilla wrote: Fri Jul 16, 2021 5:15 pm What can we use, that isn't plastic, to wrap threads and as washers in screw fittings ?

How about carving balsa wood into washer shapes and using that instead of plastic washers ?
Whatever the balsa wood leaches into the product, it's going to be the natural organic constituents of balsa wood.
(I presume that means non-toxic, or certainly, less toxic, than various plastics).

What could we use to wrap threads (PTFE substitute ?)

Thanks to anyone that responds

Cilla :) x
Hi Cilla,

This thread is mainly about PTFE and whether it is safe in the presence of high temperature alcohol. I would be extremely surprised if any safety data is available for balsa wood and have no idea if high temperature solvents (such as alcohol and the other constituents of a spirit run) would be safe in contact with it. Who knows what nasties could react and leech out, especially if the wood is treated. PTFE, as discussed in this thread has been shown to be at least relatively experimentally safe in these conditions and I am not sure why one would wish to try untested and most likely more expensive and difficult to use materials.
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