Tasting Spirits - Developing a Palate

[MichiganCornhusker]

I've been distilling for a little over a year now and I feel like I am just now getting to a point where I can start to pick out different grain flavors and identify them.
It seems like rye and corn and barley should be easy to detect and differentiate in whiskey, but I have only been able to taste them as a single entity, varying from recipe to recipe.
I have been very fortunate to try lots of spirits crafted by many others here on the site, and that has helped me in a way that I could not have had any other way.
But, even so, I still think my tasting skills are evolving so slowly. Like I see the forest, but not the trees.

The other thing is that I can taste something one day and come back to the same drink another day and it doesn't strike me the same way.
I don't even seem to be able to trust what I think I've learned.

I hate to be impatient, but damn, it's been a freakin year! Anyone else have this experience of taking so long to develop the sense to taste the distinct flavors in a spirit?
Any suggestions on how to learn to be a better drinker? I'm open to the idea of doing lots more research!
Part of it is that I never really drank spirits before learning to distill, just lots of beer, so I'm still right at the starting line.

Just curious if anyone else has felt like it took a while to develop a palate for spirits, or if most just know what they want and know it when they get there.

[Jimbo]

I'll bite.

I came from years of drinking Jack and Scotch. So like you had no developed palate to start with. Jack is clean and simple, Scotch is degrees of smoke. Neither give you an appreciation for this grain or that grain.

So when I started distilling whiskey I made everything I could think of. Single grains where I could (with enough barley malt to convert, this was B.E. before enzymes). Oats, wheat, wheat malt, rolled barley, barley malt, rye malt (never found rye grain yet), sweetfeed done AG, half a dozen spins on Bourbon, smokey things with added smoked malts. And it was from doing dozens of runs of this and that that I decided what I liked. Sometimes its a forest that I like, and not sure why, like when I do blends, other times its certain grains, like wheat. Ive decided Im a fan of wheat, both grain and malt. SIngle malt wheat is great, wheated bourbons too. Some things I decided I dont like very much, oats alone I thought was too smooth. Rolled barley too bland. Corn too... something, thin?

I still dont have much figured out in the grand scheme, but I know I like to experiment, and I know if its got wheat in it there's a fair chance Ill like it. Lately I do more batches of wheated bourbon than anything, cause thats what I drink the most of, and I like having stocks of it that can hit some age before I drink it, current drinking stock is 18 months old.

But, like most people I think, my tastes revolve too. Changeups for a spell are nice. I have 5 gallons of Triple Smoke in the barrel for S3:16. I like Scotch and the smokey things Ive made like Bonfire or even the SmokeyHead. So when its time to unbung this barrel of 3smoke I might go on a smokey bender for a year. Who knows. I guess what Im saying is make everything first, then make what you like, then if you decide you like something different after a spell, then make that too. This isint like marriage, its ok to play the field. Hell I dunno, Im just babbling.

[robpftas]

I've been distilling for a little over a year now and I feel like I am just now getting to a point where I can start to pick out different grain flavors and identify them.
It seems like rye and corn and barley should be easy to detect and differentiate in whiskey, but I have only been able to taste them as a single entity, varying from recipe to recipe.
I have been very fortunate to try lots of spirits crafted by many others here on the site, and that has helped me in a way that I could not have had any other way.
But, even so, I still think my tasting skills are evolving so slowly. Like I see the forest, but not the trees.

The other thing is that I can taste something one day and come back to the same drink another day and it doesn't strike me the same way.
I don't even seem to be able to trust what I think I've learned.

I hate to be impatient, but damn, it's been a freakin year! Anyone else have this experience of taking so long to develop the sense to taste the distinct flavors in a spirit?
Any suggestions on how to learn to be a better drinker? I'm open to the idea of doing lots more research!
Part of it is that I never really drank spirits before learning to distill, just lots of beer, so I'm still right at the starting line.

Just curious if anyone else has felt like it took a while to develop a palate for spirits, or if most just know what they want and know it when they get there.

I am exactly the same as you. I went to Whiskey Live recently tasted about 40 worlds best commercial whiskeys trying to learn but came away just knowing what i liked more of one than another but not knowing why.

I cant pick the specific notes just overall differences. In fact I found that good commercial stuff all taste so similar i cant see why one is worth more than another it is all good.

I make ag malted barley the traditional way = mash tun off the grain using whiskey yeast. I run 4 plate bubbler taking hearts only and age on american or french oak dominoes. I make a great drop. I can drink it from 2 month on but longer is better. But again the difference in time does not change it from bad to good just good and slightly different. Even white is good but air and colour and time does make good better.

If i compare mine to commercial top end stuff i would say mine is more Irish than Scotch. It lacks that deep rich taste but then mine has not been on wood for 18 years.

I live in Tasmania which is becoming famous for best whisky and i tried award winning brands that are young and mine is much better. Commercial whisky has heads which takes a long time to age it out. You can not drink young commercial white whisky but you drink mine white if you want.

I am very happy with what i make. I have tried various grain bills but come back to single all malt barley as being the easiest and most consistent process.

I also do neutral on 5 plates and 1 meter copper mesh packed vm column and i can not taste anything it is so pure that it has no smell or taste just bight. I ferment sugar on the spent grain in the mash tun.

Love this hobby make great stuff , know what i like and don't like but can't tell you why. I hope my pallete can learn more over time.

[MichiganCornhusker]

o when I started distilling whiskey I made everything I could think of.

Ha, preaching to the converted, there. That is probably part of my problem, that I've made too many things and not focused enough on learning about one.
I'm hunkering down now, and I'm gonna learn whiskey. I've made some different recipes with barley/corn, barley/rye/corn, barley/wheat, and all corn. I'm comparing them directly to each other, and also blending to see if I can get the hang of the tastes of the grains. My only all barley right now is a scotch and it is pretty smokey, so it doesn't really compare directly.

Early on I think I was confusing the taste of rye with heads, but now I think I can pick out the rye in a whiskey.
If anything I think I'm becoming over sensitized to corn, I need to go searching around the corn flavor to get to the barley and wheat flavors.

Another thing is that something like rye doesn't taste consistent to me. My rye tastes hot and peppery and has a smell that I've gotten used to. I tasted some rye bourbon by Rager this weekend, and that rye tasted spicy and floral. I've also tasted some straight rye that smelled like a feedbag. Same for wheat, mine has a sweeter, almost butterscotchy flavor, where wheats I've tasted by Jimbo and Jed are much more fruity.

I'm hoping this will be like one of those magic eye posters where if you relax and keep looking it will all come into focus. In the meantime, it's fun to keep looking.

[MichiganCornhusker]

I went to Whiskey Live recently tasted about 40 worlds best commercial whiskeys trying to learn but came away just knowing what i liked more of one than another but not knowing why.
I cant pick the specific notes just overall differences.
Love this hobby make great stuff , know what i like and don't like but can't tell you why. I hope my pallete can learn more over time.

Yes, that's it exactly. I'm not complaining, I sure am enjoying what I'm making, and the whole discovery process.
I just hope to hone my senses, and maybe develop a vocabulary, at least internally, to keep track of what I'm drinking.

[Jimbo]

I'm hoping this will be like one of those magic eye posters where if you relax and keep looking it will all come into focus.

Or it will be one of those eye posters that make you delusional and hallucinate something that isint there at all. LOL

[MichiganCornhusker]

I'm hoping this will be like one of those magic eye posters where if you relax and keep looking it will all come into focus.

Or it will be one of those eye posters that make you delusional and hallucinate something that isint there at all. LOL

Ah yes, the old blacklight posters with the mesmerizing vibrating colors and black flocking. I shall approach this from many directions.

[Danespirit]

MCH...think we are a lot alike..
Before i started to distill serious (pre HD), i was also a beer drinker.
Now on the chance to get my head ripped off, i would state...danish beer is among the best in the world.
I still love beer, but after i started distilling i am more and more going towards the distilled spirits.
Fortunatly i can make anything with metal, so building a still wasn't hard for me...the hardest part was the research (but there is the fun..and still is).
For the most of a year i spend lurking, reading and lurking once more, trying to figure "How stuff works".
I soaked every information on this site up like a sponge, and decided to join in.
Finally i had the parts together for my first real still and got it from the paper into real life.
After a cleaning run etc, my first attempt to distill was really shocking to me...i couldn't belive it was so pure..!
It got even better from time to time, as i learned to make decent cuts.
What i first assumed to be ok hearts, later turned out to be rubbish with way to much heads in it..
Finally the wisedom from experienced distillers in this forum, made the penny drop and i understood what this is all about.
It's not just making cheap booze ...it's about making a quality product one can be proud of.
Also it's to share the knowledge, with this brotherhood of fellow distillers.
Dnderhead, Goose eye are just two of many names that came into my mind, as i have enjoyed the wisedom given in their posts.
Funny sideeffect of my attemt to be a better distiller...i recognize heads in commercial spirits, just by smelling.
Also i must say my palate for spirits has developed tremendous...
What earlier could go for a drink with Coke or the like, is now garbadge not worth drinking.

[Jimbo]

I'm hoping this will be like one of those magic eye posters where if you relax and keep looking it will all come into focus.

Or it will be one of those eye posters that make you delusional and hallucinate something that isint there at all. LOL

Ah yes, the old blacklight posters with the mesmerizing vibrating colors and black flocking. I shall approach this from many directions.

Starting the night of tasting with a trilogy of thujone (absinthe), juglone (walnut brandy) and cyanide (kirsch) should kick up the senses? What the hell, throw Hendrix's Electric Ladyland on the turntable too. What time you want me over?

[moosemilk]

I'm about the same point, just over a year into seriously doing it. Spotting heads in commercial liquor wa the first thing I learned. Other than that, rather than try to pick out what grains there are, I concentrate more on what exactly I am tasting. Like chocolate, smokey, fruity, etc. I think this approach best keeps my brain from telling me it must taste like corn because there is corn.

[S-Cackalacky]

MCH, much like you, I didn't drink much at all before I got into this hobby. I don't know that I'll ever get to a point of being able to discern subtle differences from one whiskey to another. Lately I've been all over the place with what I make for myself - Hook rum, URRV, and a couple of experiments. When I started the hobby, I was making SF (sugarhead) almost exclusively. It seemed that when I finally got the method and the flavors dialed in, I took off in other directions. The most important thing I've learned about making and drinking whiskey is consistency. Seems like the smallest variation in method can significantly change what comes out the other end. Any success or failure adds something new to the personal brain trust. It's a steep learning curve that never seems to reach a plateau.

Anyway, that all said, I like what I like when I find it. I guess success is being able to repeat it or have the where-with-all to put your hard found talents to the task of finding something new to like.

Posted while others were posting.

[jedneck]

I think that the problem we all have, is that when we start we wanna ferment anything and everything to try and find the pot o gold at the end of the rainbow. I have been working with malted corn, malted white wheat and plain rye. It is fun to see how the flavour changes when you change the ratio of grains in a bill. I think I found my bill 60% malted corn, 30% malted white wheat and 10% rye with the corn and wheat smoked with corn cobs. I think the best way to figure out what flavours come from what is to start with one grain and learn it. Then add another in various proportions. Then another. And then to top it off you add oak or other woods. The worm hole is a never end in spiral of greatness.

[Bigbob]

I don't know about you guys, BUT I LIKE SWEET FEED!!! Just kidding I'm hoping to get into the all grain party, but it looks to take a lot more room that I don't have. I'm also going to do some more fruit brandys and I will make more honey shine someday soon. As to palate, all I know is I like the stuff I make and I can't drink commercial anymore. The other spirits I've had at S3 and Proof that where made by others on the forum show that most get the idea of cuts and all are excellent!

[MichiganCornhusker]

I'm about the same point, just over a year into seriously doing it. Spotting heads in commercial liquor wa the first thing I learned. Other than that, rather than try to pick out what grains there are, I concentrate more on what exactly I am tasting. Like chocolate, smokey, fruity, etc. I think this approach best keeps my brain from telling me it must taste like corn because there is corn.

I would agree, spotting heads becomes one of the first skills. And finding them in commercial spirits is fish in a barrel.
Another thing I noticed was that as soon as I made my own rum I could taste the molasses/cane flavors in commercial rums that I had never noticed as such before.

That's a great point about not focusing on what's in the drink and tasting it because it's supposed to be there.
Sometimes I have little tastings with a friend and we take turns pouring several glasses and mix them up so we don't know what's what, then do what you suggest, focus on the flavors and tastes and smells independent of recipe.
I know when I open up my booner's my brain is already wired for golden delicious corn.

[MichiganCornhusker]

It's a steep learning curve that never seems to reach a plateau.

Ha, I was kinda hoping for a plateau out there somewhere. But then again, I suppose where's the fun in that?
I agree that so many thing about the process can have a substantial effect on the spirit. I feel like I'm getting my cooking and mashing down pretty good now, but I have barely begun to understand yeast and fermenting.
RandyMarsh was talking about starters this weekend and it was all greek to me. I definitely need to go down that road because I do know how much ferment can affect final spirit.

[MichiganCornhusker]

I think that the problem we all have, is that when we start we wanna ferment anything and everything to try and find the pot o gold at the end of the rainbow. I have been working with malted corn, malted white wheat and plain rye. It is fun to see how the flavour changes when you change the ratio of grains in a bill. I think I found my bill 60% malted corn, 30% malted white wheat and 10% rye with the corn and wheat smoked with corn cobs. I think the best way to figure out what flavours come from what is to start with one grain and learn it. Then add another in various proportions. Then another. And then to top it off you add oak or other woods. The worm hole is a never end in spiral of greatness.

Maybe it's not a pot, it's a worm hole!
The excitement of making distilled spirits got me fermenting anything and everything. I like to think I have some of that out of my system, now, and that I can slow down a little and focus on smaller bites.
You're right about the grain bill, it has a huge impact on my stuff. Right now I have stumbled onto a really nice blend of two of my finished whiskeys: 60% corn/barley and 40% corn/barley/rye. Being able to mix and blend them is helping me figure out what might work for percentages of grains in my next batch. As I develop a taste for the grains, it is helping me guess at what blends might make me happy.

Yes, and then there is the whole wood thing, toast or no toast, what temps, char?, oak or cherry or other, and for how long, sherry anyone? Maybe that's why this is such a great hobby, a lifetime of experiments to try out.

[S-Cackalacky]

It's a steep learning curve that never seems to reach a plateau.

Ha, I was kinda hoping for a plateau out there somewhere. But then again, I suppose where's the fun in that?
I agree that so many thing about the process can have a substantial effect on the spirit. I feel like I'm getting my cooking and mashing down pretty good now, but I have barely begun to understand yeast and fermenting.
RandyMarsh was talking about starters this weekend and it was all greek to me. I definitely need to go down that road because I do know how much ferment can affect final spirit.

Fermenting has been the most mysterious thing to me. Any little nuance can make it or break it. I've had successful runs that were rich in hearts and I've had runs with little narrow-assed hearts cuts. Those yeasties are finicky little bastards.

[MichiganCornhusker]

The other spirits I've had at S3 and Proof that where made by others on the forum show that most get the idea of cuts and all are excellent!

I like sweetfeed, too! I was happy to be able to taste the molasses in your sweetfeed, but I couldn't taste the honey shine they way I could tell Jimbo and Woodshed were tasting it.
This isn't really something I'm going to fixate on, but I would like to taste more clearly, deeper, if that makes sense.
Btw, your honey shine has got me thinking about maybe doing a honey/sweetcorn recipe when I get the time.

I think it was Boomtown that brought the flavor wheel to Jedfest. At the time it was overwhelming and confusing to me, but maybe now with my baby steps toward tasting it might be a helpful aid...

[MichiganCornhusker]

I've had successful runs that were rich in hearts and I've had runs with little narrow-assed hearts cuts.

I've been thinking that same thing. I used to get a lot more acetone in my heads, and lately they have been cleaner until my last batch. I think it is because I don't control the temp of my ferment very well.
In the winter it is easier because I keep the room at happy temps for the yeast, but in summer I think I've been overheating the poor guys.

That acetone taste was another that was easy to pick up on early in my career. Unfortunately, I somehow got it linked to the floral components of my rye and got myself confused when doing cuts.
Now I've been doing enough batches that I'm getting better at telling the difference between the heavy rye character and the headsy acetone. I'm especially terrified about acetone because I cut too far into heads on a wheat batch once and wrecked the whole thing.
I hadn't really thought about it until typing this, but there is the whole other palate of making cuts!

[jedneck]

The other spirits I've had at S3 and Proof that where made by others on the forum show that most get the idea of cuts and all are excellent!

I like sweetfeed, too! I was happy to be able to taste the molasses in your sweetfeed, but I couldn't taste the honey shine they way I could tell Jimbo and Woodshed were tasting it.
This isn't really something I'm going to fixate on, but I would like to taste more clearly, deeper, if that makes sense.
Btw, your honey shine has got me thinking about maybe doing a honey/sweetcorn recipe when I get the time.

I think it was Boomtown that brought the flavor wheel to Jedfest. At the time it was overwhelming and confusing to me, but maybe now with my baby steps toward tasting it might be a helpful aid...

Yup it was boomtown . I was in the same boat overwhelmed at the time. This year shouldn't be as overwhelming. But we haven't seen the table yet.

[moosemilk]

I know when I open up my booner's my brain is already wired for golden delicious corn.

Booners I my favorite go-to, even on UJ. I would rather spend time cooking it up than the ease of UJ. And I would say booners is a category all its own...very unique. I don't think your brain is just wired that way for it, it is what it is. Pure corn goodness!

[jedneck]

http://www.whiskymag.com/nosing_course/part3.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
I think this is the wheel boom brought.

[MichiganCornhusker]

http://www.whiskymag.com/nosing_course/part3.php
I think this is the wheel boom brought.

yep, that looks familiar.
Browsing the wheel with drink in hand, it's funny, but I think it's the rye that gives me "barber shop"!
Also some fruity mixed peel, maybe a little almond oil? Diluted custard? maybe some "pouring honey".
I guess I feel like the wheel still doesn't quite get me there. Definitely no pencil eraser though.

I know there are other wheels, is there one just for whiskey or spirits? Anyone every made up their own wheel or matrix? Seems like I saw a post about this last year...

[Jimbo]

honeyshine... hmmmm Yes that was delicious! Bigbob hit that out of the park. I have 5 gallons of sweet mead fermenting right now, a big one 15-16%. Gonna make a raspberry sweet mead but havent added the raspberries yet, letting the primary bubble out first. Maybe I'll steal half of it and make some honey shine before I dump the raspberries in

[jedneck]

Here is another wheel.

[MichiganCornhusker]

And I would say booners is a category all its own...very unique. I don't think your brain is just wired that way for it, it is what it is. Pure corn goodness!

So true. It was the Booner's recipe that took the mystery out of liquid enzymes for me and got me to thinking that I could use them. Before Booner's they just seemed too foreign and specialized to me.
Using the enzymes I have done some small 100% grain batches of wheat, oats, rye, barley, corn. Back when I did them I was disappointed that there wasn't more difference between the tastes, but I bet if I go back now and taste them they will be a lot different to me. I'll have to dig them out of the cellar.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Here is another wheel.

I think that wheel give me more to work with than the other, I think we need a combination of wheels for spirits, maybe even different specialized wheels for different spirits like whiskey and rum and gin, etc.
If I focus on this drink in my hand, I can be talked into "mouth coating", "buttery", somewhere between "vanilla" and "honey" (not a bad place to be), some "husky""hay like" and a bit of "tobacco""leather"
Yes, this is helpful, thanks!

Jimbo, that is an impossible choice to make. Raspberry mead is one of the favorite things I've every created, and Bigbob's honey shine was unforgettable. Good luck with that one.

[jedneck]

Google whiskey tasting chart.
Found a book on the subject at hand
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00S38JFF ... Tag=1&fp=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[WhiteDevil504]

I actually have the book in the recommendations below the one Jed linked. "Tasting whiskey" by Lew Bryson It's actually pretty good but a lot of it is info I had seen on here... Worth a read for sure if you're looking for some fun reading

[Brutal]

This is a great idea for a thread and lots of helpful comments so far. So much to learn.