understand the risks

Discussion and plans for legalizing our hobby.

Re: understand the risks

Postby toofless one » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:04 pm

kiwi, im just thinkin that if they are losing revenue from a group that makes their own likker, they are gonna have to make it up somewhere...maybe im wrong, i wasnt very good in HS economics and maybe its showin now :cry:

and it is pretty far fetched...just something to knock around, ya know? the laws which govern this hobby seem pretty far fetched as well.

think about it...maybe we could get Mothers Against Drunk Driving behind us too. If we are makin booze at home, we wont be goin to the bar and drivin home drunk. imagine that MADD fighting for us...THAT is far fetched!
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Re: understand the risks

Postby kiwistiller » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:32 pm

Oh ok. Store bought prices didn't change here when it was legalised.
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Re: understand the risks

Postby toofless one » Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:51 pm

really? how long ago was it legalized?
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Re: understand the risks

Postby kiwistiller » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:54 pm

in the late 90's off the top of my head... the amount of people prepared to go to the lengths of distilling their own is simply too small to have a big effect on the mainstream liquor industry.
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Re: understand the risks

Postby toofless one » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:05 pm

kiwistiller wrote:in the late 90's off the top of my head... the amount of people prepared to go to the lengths of distilling their own is simply too small to have a big effect on the mainstream liquor industry.


I was thinkin that too...too many people will still buy liquor. so what happened in the great land of NZ that swayed politicians into legalizing this? did it come out of the blue or was there lobbying? possibly NZ's legalization movement could be adapted to US...im sure that it has already been thought of...we cant be the first, but something must have happened...a google i shall go...
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Re: understand the risks

Postby kiwistiller » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:11 pm

In a nutshell, the bureaucrats caught themselves between a rock and a hard place, ended up legalising still ownership but not operation, and then realising they couldn't hope to police it, gave up and legalised :lol: there's a rundown on the parent site.
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Re: understand the risks

Postby wort » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:47 pm

If you want to genuinely lobby for the legalization of home distillation, then you need to put yourself in your opponents view point. You will need to present your case from their view.

The types of counter arguments you will get will be:

Tax – lost revenue in excise tax. This could be countered by using countries that have legalized the use of home stills as a reference. Showing that the numbers of hobbyists that would take up the hobby would not have a significant impact on commercial distillers and would not reduce excise collect in a significant way.

Safety – Insert any concern (valid or not) here. The will need to be consider carefully. One can certainly appreciate that this can be a dangerous hobby. However, if all the proper safety considerations are made, then it’s perfectly safe. Kind of like rally car driving. Follow the expected safety rules and it’s pretty safe. Act like a cowboy, and well, you have a date with Darwin ;0) But safety will be a genuine concern and one that cannot be dismissed.

Social impacts – The downfall of humanity will prevail! A bit dramatic, however, if you look into why prohibition got subscribed into law and has many times over through out history (and not just in the US) you will see the types of people, usually highly religious (I mean absolutely no offence to anyone) and then the negative effects that resulted.

One interesting fact to find out would be to find out how much taxpayers dollars is spent on the locating, prosecuting and incarceration of home distillers and compare that to the potential recoverable excise revenue etc

I personally think that lobbying your governments would not be hard; it would be long and time consuming though. One thing you could draw on is that both wine making and beer brewing is often not illegal (Is there anywhere that it is illegal?) and that distillation of said wines and beers should not be illegal for home use and consumption.

Just my thoughts :0)
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Re: understand the risks

Postby HookLine » Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:24 pm

kiwistiller wrote:the amount of people prepared to go to the lengths of distilling their own is simply too small to have a big effect on the mainstream liquor industry.

Same thing as with home beer and wine brewing. Noticed the commercial beer and wine industries going broke since home brewing became legal? Nope, me either. The vast majority of people are simply not interested or able to do it, for one reason or another.

I seriously doubt that legalising home stilling would make even the slightest dent in the commercial sector. In fact, if home stilling went legal it might even give the commercial guys a boost because the general interest in spirits might increase from legalising home stilling.

Even if it did make a dent in their profit, so what? Is there some reason the more expensive commercial side must get favourable treatment over the cheaper home made? We don't require people to only eat in commercial restaurants, despite home food preparation being much less regulated (ie more unsafe) than in commercial kitchens. There are a million other examples of home made stuff being legal, including beer and wine, clothing, food, etc, even though there are vast commercial industries making the same product.

As to lost tax revenue. If we don't make a significant dent in the commercial sales, then there is no lost revenue. And indeed, we would be generating additional tax revenue through the legal sales of stilling equipment and supplies. (We already do, to some extent. So how about some return to the hobby on those tax dollars! :mrgreen: )

Social impact? IIRC, alcohol consumption has been generally rising the world over for decades (with nice profits for the commercial guys). Doubt the authorities can seriously argue that legalising a handful of home stillers is going to affect that. It could be argued that most people who will make their own booze, (spirits, wine and beer) are already doing it anyway, and that the numbers who will take up home stilling after legalisation is unlikely to be great, so legalising it is unlikely to suddenly up the general alcohol consumption rate in the community.

Safety is the only legit concern the authorities can have. If we can show that we can make spirits safely (at least as safely as the commercial guys, and I think we have already done that), then there is no substantive argument left against legalisation. (This is one reason why I push the safety angle so hard on the forums.)

New Zealand's experience of legalised home stilling is now well over a decade old. Commercial booze makers and sellers are still in business, the government is still receiving tax dollars (including from the legal NZ home stilling industry), and NZ society does not seem to have collapsed.

In essence, we only have one case of a country legalising home stilling (and a modern western style democracy at that), and the outcome has not been a bad one.
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Re: understand the risks

Postby goose eye » Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:56 am

product liability
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Re: understand the risks

Postby rad14701 » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:50 am

Legalization of home distillation will NEVER have as much impact on the wine, beer, and liquor industries as recently stricter DUI laws have had... It wouldn't impact anyone who just wants to dabble at it on a small scale for personal use... Those who insist on producing in large volumes for sales will still be making money and breaking the law because they are selling... We don't want to be portrayed as falling into that category here... Our spirits should remain untaxed because we are not profiting from them so the government really isn't losing any taxes... Products should only be taxable upon sale and not on production but that isn't always the case, at least here in the US - but that's another story altogether...
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Re: understand the risks

Postby Arcane Outlaw » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:05 pm

Concerning the threat to the distilling industry and Government revenue, we need to empasize the "hobby" aspect of home distillation. This is accomplished by:
1. No selling of home produced likker allowed.
2. Setting a small batch production limit for personal consumption.
3. Compare legalization of home distilling to home brewing and wine making (as pointed out, vast majority of population will not participate in this hobby...too much time or effort....easier to buy a bottle).
4. The one I did not think about as pointed out...compare to NZ.

The safety issue definitely needs to be addressed. Would it not be safer if home distillers could come out of the shadows and freely share information in the open?

Unforunately, everybody is hiding because they fear prosecution; however, hiding in the shadows hurts the legalization movement. The Government needs to see that normal, everyday citizens are distilling as a hobby. In other words, we are not all backwoods hillbillies hiding up in the hills distilling shine for a profit (no offense to hillbillies intended...my roots stem from hillbillies :D ). I know from experience that some of us are safer from prosecution than others just based on our location. Where I live, prosecutors and investigators have far more important things to mess with than some guy distilling a few bottles for himself in his garage. Some of you though may live in an area where a prosecutor or investigator is salivating at incarcerating the Al Capone of Small Town, USA.

Additionally, do we need to consider the individual state laws despite federal legalization of home distilling or would all the states follow under the federal law? I know there is no issue with home brewing or wine making. Just something to consider.

Whatever problems exist, maybe it's time to mount an offensive. I know it was tried by that one senator in early 2000??? Is he still a senator? We need to make a list of our friends in the Government who can help lobby our cause, but ultimately it is up to us to provide them with the ammo they need. Maybe we need a Declaration of Home Distillation!
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Re: understand the risks

Postby ScottishBoy » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:26 pm

In the US, the GOV gets 3 dollars for every gallon of 100 proof alcohol produced.
That money translates to billions of dollars each year and I cant see the government even letting the tiniest crack form in that great big dam of money.
Im thinking that if we tried a permit that covered roughly the amount of taxes that a person would give to State and LOCAL via liquor buying, then we might stand a chance. Basically Im talking a Liquor Permit.

Once again, if there is even a hint of the GOV loosing money, it will be protested vehemently, especially by the alcohol industry.

Im going to have to think about this one. You would need at least 5 sympathetic senators to carry anything serious.

Hmmmmm...
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