Washington Laws?

Discussion and plans for legalizing our hobby.

Moderator: Forum Mods

Washington Laws?

Postby Bushman » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:19 pm

I have a friend that I have shared a few drinks with, he owns 37+ acres in the San Juan Islands and has an apple orchard and sheep. I loaned him my apple cider grinder and press this weekend as he wants to make some apple brandy. He does not have a still but said it was legal from an agricultural angle to make and sell brandy as a farmer without having to sell through the WSLCB. I am not sure on this one but know our laws were changed for distilling in the state through an agricultural angle. He has proposed to me since I am retired and have more experience than him in distilling to go into production with him. I am going to check out the laws as this sounds a little too easy. I like the idea however because he has a great location with 7 beaches that goes through one of the passes between 2 ilands and dock for me when I am out in the San Juans plus I am really interested in maybe taking the next step. I am not sure I want to limit production to apple brandy but if his claim is true I would think it would be limited on what one could produce depending on what one grows. Me just rambling!
"Beer is not a good cocktail-party drink, especially in a home where you don't know where the bathroom is" Billy Carter

The only person you need to be better than is the person you were yesterday!
User avatar
Bushman
Moderator
 
Posts: 6804
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:29 am
Location: Pacific Northwest if not on the water boating

Re: Washington Laws?

Postby blind drunk » Wed Oct 12, 2011 6:36 pm

Sounds like he made you an offer you can't refuse. Good luck with it.
I do all my own stunts
blind drunk
Master Distiller
 
Posts: 4857
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 12:59 am

Re: Washington Laws?

Postby Dnderhead » Wed Oct 12, 2011 7:00 pm

basically the rules are for commercial operations. The state has two types of licenses one requires you use in-state products and the other is more expensive but allows you to use whatever you want. the idea is to use local products.but all needs to go threw the state liquor board.the craft distillery licence is 100$ a year (up to 2000gal a year?) over this and its 2,000$ . so even if you had a licence
you whould have to sell to the state then buy it back.
Dnderhead
Master Distiller
 
Posts: 13669
Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:07 pm
Location: up north

Re: Washington Laws?

Postby Bushman » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:28 pm

Dnderhead wrote:basically the rules are for commercial operations. The state has two types of licenses one requires you use in-state products and the other is more expensive but allows you to use whatever you want. the idea is to use local products.but all needs to go threw the state liquor board.the craft distillery licence is 100$ a year (up to 2000gal a year?) over this and its 2,000$ . so even if you had a licence
you whould have to sell to the state then buy it back.

Dnderhead, that is what I thought and said to him but he thought differently. I said we would have to look into before I make any commitments to him!
"Beer is not a good cocktail-party drink, especially in a home where you don't know where the bathroom is" Billy Carter

The only person you need to be better than is the person you were yesterday!
User avatar
Bushman
Moderator
 
Posts: 6804
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:29 am
Location: Pacific Northwest if not on the water boating

Re: Washington Laws?

Postby Bull Rider » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:26 am

I called the Capitol a few years ago and spoke with an employee of the State Liquor Board. I wanted to purchase the state distillery license, it was $200.00 or so if I recall. I was told that first I needed to have ALL of the federal licenses in place. Which was a deal breaker for me.

I told the employee that I didn't want to sell, I just wanted to legally produce spirits for home consumption. She snorted.

I have not read up on the new legislation that just passed but I know it's pretty progressive as far as home distilling and selling.

I'll do some reading on the state web site to see what the new laws actually say.

One more tip, don't take what you hear or read from others too seriously, find, print, and read the laws for yourself, which I know you will. It's amazing how much disinformation is shared by folks.

Edit:
Here's the license I wanted to purchase, and it was $100.00 not $200.00

Craft Distillery $100
For distillers who are producing 60,000 gallons or less of spirits. At least half of the raw materials used in the production must be grown in Washington. Allows a craft distillery to contract distilled spirits for, and sell distilled spirits to, holders of distillery licenses, manufacturer’s licenses and grower’s licenses.


There's nothing that I see in the new legislation that allows distilleries to sell at Farmers Markets.



Bull.
Last edited by Bull Rider on Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Life is hard, it's harder when you're stupid...
User avatar
Bull Rider
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:47 pm
Location: Pacific Northwest, USA

Re: Washington Laws?

Postby mash rookie » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:41 am

This is funny. Before I saw this post I PM'd Bull asking if he was the one that posted a WA state link awhile back.
Ten minutes ago!

After doing a couple of local Micro distillery tours I have decided that I want to understand WA law. I have heard that they are encouraging micro distillers and even holding classes. I did not find what I was looking for yesterday on Google.

Although I am lucky enough to be doing okay in business, sadly I had two more galleries go out of business this month. I don’t take anything for granted. You never know when you may have to make a career change.

I will let you know what I learn. Keep me posted.

MR
User avatar
mash rookie
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 2235
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:20 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Washington Laws?

Postby Bull Rider » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:48 am

Here's a cut and paste from the state website.


WAC 314-28-050 What does a craft distillery license allow? (1) A craft distillery license allows a licensee to:

(a) Produce sixty thousand proof gallons or less of spirits per calendar year. A "proof gallon" is one liquid gallon of spirits that is fifty percent alcohol at sixty degrees Fahrenheit;

(b) Sell spirits of its own production directly to a customer for off-premises consumption, provided that the sale occurs when the customer is physically present on the licensed premises. A licensee may sell no more than two liters per customer per day. A craft distiller may not sell liquor products of someone else's production;

(c) Sell spirits of its own production to the board provided that the product is "listed" by the board, or is special-ordered by an individual Washington state liquor store;

(d) Sell to out-of-state entities;

(e) Provide, free of charge, samples of spirits of its own production to persons on the distillery premises. Each sample must be one-half ounce or less, with no more than two ounces of samples provided per person per day. Samples must be unaltered, and anyone involved in the serving of such samples must have a valid Class 12 alcohol server permit. Samples must be in compliance with RCW 66.28.040;

(f) Provide, free of charge, samples of spirits of its own production to retailers. Samples must be unaltered, and in compliance with RCW 66.28.040, 66.24.310 and WAC 314-64-08001. Samples are considered sales and are subject to taxes;

(g) Contract produced spirits for holders of a distiller or manufacturer license.

(2) A craft distillery licensee may not sell directly to in-state retailers or in-state distributors.



[Statutory Authority: RCW 66.24.145 and 66.08.030. 10-19-066, § 314-28-050, filed 9/15/10, effective 10/16/10; 09-02-011, § 314-28-050, filed 12/29/08, effective 1/29/09.]
Life is hard, it's harder when you're stupid...
User avatar
Bull Rider
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:47 pm
Location: Pacific Northwest, USA

Re: Washington Laws?

Postby Bushman » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:51 am

Bull Rider wrote:Here's a cut and paste from the state website.


WAC 314-28-050 What does a craft distillery license allow? (1) A craft distillery license allows a licensee to:

(a) Produce sixty thousand proof gallons or less of spirits per calendar year. A "proof gallon" is one liquid gallon of spirits that is fifty percent alcohol at sixty degrees Fahrenheit;

(b) Sell spirits of its own production directly to a customer for off-premises consumption, provided that the sale occurs when the customer is physically present on the licensed premises. A licensee may sell no more than two liters per customer per day. A craft distiller may not sell liquor products of someone else's production;

(c) Sell spirits of its own production to the board provided that the product is "listed" by the board, or is special-ordered by an individual Washington state liquor store;

(d) Sell to out-of-state entities;

(e) Provide, free of charge, samples of spirits of its own production to persons on the distillery premises. Each sample must be one-half ounce or less, with no more than two ounces of samples provided per person per day. Samples must be unaltered, and anyone involved in the serving of such samples must have a valid Class 12 alcohol server permit. Samples must be in compliance with RCW 66.28.040;

(f) Provide, free of charge, samples of spirits of its own production to retailers. Samples must be unaltered, and in compliance with RCW 66.28.040, 66.24.310 and WAC 314-64-08001. Samples are considered sales and are subject to taxes;

(g) Contract produced spirits for holders of a distiller or manufacturer license.

(2) A craft distillery licensee may not sell directly to in-state retailers or in-state distributors.



[Statutory Authority: RCW 66.24.145 and 66.08.030. 10-19-066, § 314-28-050, filed 9/15/10, effective 10/16/10; 09-02-011, § 314-28-050, filed 12/29/08, effective 1/29/09.]

Thanks BR I saw this once before and was about to look it up to pass on to my friend.
"Beer is not a good cocktail-party drink, especially in a home where you don't know where the bathroom is" Billy Carter

The only person you need to be better than is the person you were yesterday!
User avatar
Bushman
Moderator
 
Posts: 6804
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:29 am
Location: Pacific Northwest if not on the water boating

Re: Washington Laws?

Postby mash rookie » Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:01 am

The next questions will be what is required to be licensed by the state. The devil is in the details. How hard or easy? How much $$ ?
User avatar
mash rookie
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 2235
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:20 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Washington Laws?

Postby Bull Rider » Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:15 am

and here's the fine print on distillery licenses. The last paragraph has some language about a two hundred dollar license for brandy stills (or so it seems on first read).

RCW 66.24.140
Distiller's license — Fee.


There shall be a license to distillers, including blending, rectifying and bottling; fee two thousand dollars per annum, unless provided otherwise as follows:

(1) For distillers producing sixty thousand gallons or less of spirits with at least half of the raw materials used in the production grown in Washington, the license fee shall be reduced to one hundred dollars per annum;

(2) The board shall license stills used and to be used solely and only by a commercial chemist for laboratory purposes, and not for the manufacture of liquor for sale, at a fee of twenty dollars per annum;

(3) The board shall license stills used and to be used solely and only for laboratory purposes in any school, college or educational institution in the state, without fee; and

(4) The board shall license stills which shall have been duly licensed as fruit and/or wine distilleries by the federal government, used and to be used solely as fruit and/or wine distilleries in the production of fruit brandy and wine spirits, at a fee of two hundred dollars per annum.
Life is hard, it's harder when you're stupid...
User avatar
Bull Rider
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:47 pm
Location: Pacific Northwest, USA

Re: Washington Laws?

Postby Bull Rider » Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:36 am

OK, last one, but this one is interesting reading; In Washington you do not need any "State" license or permit to make ethanol for "fuel". It also says that you don't need to denature the product until it leave the premises. Now it's a stretch to argue that twenty gallons of UJSM on oak is intended for my tractor, but...

One would need to have the proper Federal permits in hand to comply with this regulation.


RCW 66.12.130
Alcohol for use as fuel in motor vehicles, farm implements, machines, etc., or in combination with other petroleum products for use as fuel.



Nothing in this title shall apply to or prevent the sale, importation, purchase, production, or blending of alcohol used solely for fuel to be used in motor vehicles, farm implements, and machines or implements of husbandry or in combination with gasoline or other petroleum products for use as such fuel. Manufacturers and distillers of such alcohol fuel are not required to obtain a license under this title. Alcohol which is produced for use as fuel shall be denatured in accordance with a formula approved by the federal bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms prior to the removal of the alcohol from the premises as described in the approved federal permit application: PROVIDED, That alcohol which is being transferred between plants involved in the distillation or manufacture of alcohol fuel need not be denatured if it is transferred in accordance with federal bureau of alcohol, tobacco and firearms regulation 27 C.F.R. 19.996 as existing on July 26, 1981. The exemptions from the state liquor control laws provided by this section only apply to distillers and manufacturers of alcohol to be used solely for fuel as long as the manufacturers and distillers are the holders of an appropriate permit issued under federal law.


Bull
Life is hard, it's harder when you're stupid...
User avatar
Bull Rider
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 789
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 7:47 pm
Location: Pacific Northwest, USA

Re: Washington Laws?

Postby mash rookie » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:12 am

After reading at the WA state web site about all their requirements I was not able to actually find an application form. Most of the information was on how you must run the business after licensing. One big thing that stood out was pricing. They stated that they set the price. Wholesale is 25% of retail. A must consideration for determining your profit margin vs overhead when considering going legal.
I then spent the last 45 minutes reading at the Federal Web site. www.ttb.gov I read that they have online application packets but was unable to down load them. That’s okay, my head was swimming.
I was not able to determine application costs or bonding requirements. They do say a bond is required. These questions could probably be answered by one of our members that have gone through the fed permit process.

Here are a couple of things I read that may be of interest to hobby distillers. (1) It is not illegal to own a still. (2) Still builders may be compelled to provide customer information to the feds

S3: I've seen ads for home distilling equipment in catalogs ("turn wine into brandy," "make your own essential oils"). Is it legal to buy and use a still like that?
Under Federal rules administered by TTB, it depends on how you use the still. You may not produce alcohol with these stills unless you qualify as a distilled spirits plant (see earlier question). However, owning a small still and using it for other purposes is allowed. You should also check with your State and local authorities - their rules may differ.
A still is defined as apparatus capable of being used to separate ethyl alcohol from a mixture that contains alcohol. Small stills (with a cubic distilling capacity of a gallon or less) that are used for laboratory purposes or for distilling water or other non-alcoholic materials are exempt from our rules. If you buy a small still and use it to distill water or extract essential oils by steam or water extraction methods, you are not subject to TTB requirements. If you produce essential oils by a solvent method and you get alcohol as a by-product of your process, we consider that distilling. Even though you are using and recovering purchased alcohol, you are separating the alcohol from a mixture -distilling.
Back to top

S4: What requirements are there for people who sell stills?
Under regulations in part 29 of title 27, Code of Federal Regulations, TTB has the right to require manufacturers of stills to give us the name and address of each customer. If we choose to impose this requirement, we inform the manufacturer of the stills by letter.
User avatar
mash rookie
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 2235
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:20 am
Location: Pacific Northwest

Re: Washington Laws?

Postby rad14701 » Thu Oct 13, 2011 8:54 am

mash rookie wrote:S4: What requirements are there for people who sell stills?
Under regulations in part 29 of title 27, Code of Federal Regulations, TTB has the right to require manufacturers of stills to give us the name and address of each customer. If we choose to impose this requirement, we inform the manufacturer of the stills by letter.

And the manufacturer is in no way obligated to notify its customers that the information has, in fact, been provided to the TTB... :think: In fact, doing so could be considered interfering with an ongoing federal investigation, or perhaps even collusion... :problem:
User avatar
rad14701
Master Distiller
 
Posts: 16689
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:46 pm
Location: New York, USA

Re: Washington Laws?

Postby mash rookie » Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:08 pm

It would make sense to have any purchases sent to a friend or nieghbor. Certainly a different address than where you intend to operate.
User avatar
mash rookie
Site Donor
Site Donor
 
Posts: 2235
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:20 am
Location: Pacific Northwest


Return to Legalization of Home Distilling



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests